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What about this...

2

Comments

  • #32
    wudangclan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭wudangclan


    Mark200 wrote: »
    No, the allegation made was that there exists dole frauds. And that out of the dole frauds that exists, there exists people who are driving flashy cars and there exists people who have plasma screen tvs.

    The point of this thread was not to draw your attention to the fact that there are good and not so good people everywhere, it was to put out a suggestion as to how to significantly reduce the ability of the not so good people to take money they are not eligible for.

    The government seem to doing pretty good already without creating the dangerous precedent of paying people to inform on their neighbours.

    http://www.welfare.ie/EN/Press/PressReleases/2009/Pages/pr110909.aspx

    It even has the phone number there for yourself ,Marc200.


  • #33
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    ScumLord wrote: »
    The entire system is broken and I wouldn't particularly blame the people who benefiting from it. You can't seriously expect a person to say no to extra money when everyone else is doing it. Now they've become reliant on that money and think they can't live without it.

    And yet when the bankers do it people demand their heads.


  • #34
    Lux23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    My Dad was unemployed for most of the 80s and the early part of the 90s. My mum worked (woefully paid catering job) so most of the time he was at home cooking, cleaning and minding the kids but he would occasionally get a few hours driving here and there which he never said anything about. So in about 92 he was reported after someone driving a hearse for a funeral, he had a visit from SW inspector who he told the truth.

    He used to get £15 for 4 hours work about once a week and he was hoping to get more so he could go on to the back to work scheme within a few months ( a great scheme that was available at the time). The SW inspector was happy with that and was sympathetic to my Dad's situation, he was a married man with two kids and one on the way. My younger brother had just being diagnosed as severly retarded with autistic tendencies and at the time my parents were receiving no support or help with this. Basically one of parents had to stay at home to look after him as noone else could but they also couldn't afford to survive on my mum's meagre wage and the dole so Dad had no choice but do a few hours when he could. My Dad was finally able to return to work when my brother got a school place and he could accept work during the day. In the end the SW Inspector said he would only lose a few quid a week so he said he would turn a blind eye.

    Now I am sure there are people out there who are defrauding the state but I also sure there are people out there who are taking a few hours work here and there simply to get by. I would never report anyone for the simple reason that although it may seem they have all the luxuries they could still be struggling. You have to remember that many people could have gotten their big cars and tvs on tic while they still had a decent income.

    Another thing I find amazing is that people seem to think that if you are entitled to get things from the state that they easy to get. It isn't, below are a list of things my parents had to beg to get for my brother.

    - A school place ( He was lucky to start at 4 but should have been in school at 2)
    - A medical card ( He has epilepsy and autisim but was refused one till he was 16 as the it means tested on his income, so we had to wait till he got disability allowance)
    - Nappies (He was in nappies till he was 9 but we only found incidentally that he was entitled to a free supply when he was 7)
    - Domicillary Allowance - Every parent with a child with a mental/phsyical handicap was entitled to this but he never got it
    - Respite Care - We didn't get regular respite until he was 13, before it was on a cancellation list!!

    While alot of this was being refused my Dad was on the dole so would you still have begrudge him a few extra quid a week? And yes I do understand the irony that social welfare fraud could have been reducing the budgets for these things but if people were adequately provided for they may not have to resort to this.


  • #35
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    Mark200 wrote: »
    And that out of the dole frauds that exists, there exists people who are driving flashy cars and there exists people who have plasma screen tvs.

    Like I said - pics or GTFO.


  • #36
    wudangclan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,883 ✭✭✭wudangclan


    Long Onion wrote: »
    Like I said - pics or GTFO.

    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/09/10/article-1212507-065EA018000005DC-746_634x425_popup.jpg


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  • #37
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    wudangclan wrote: »
    http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2009/09/10/article-1212507-065EA018000005DC-746_634x425_popup.jpg


    Nearly - it's a fcukin Kia though!

    (also, it's in England and unlike some AH lurkers, I do not accept that skin colour is proof positive of dole reciept;))


  • #38
    Latchy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,190 ✭✭✭✭Latchy


    Lux23 wrote: »
    Now I am sure there are people out there who are defrauding the state but I also sure there are people out there who are taking a few hours work here and there simply to get by. I would never report anyone for the simple reason that although it may seem they have all the luxuries they could still be struggling. You have to remember that many people could have gotten their big cars and tvs on tic while they still had a decent income.

    Another thing I find amazing is that people seem to think that if you are entitled to get things from the state that they easy to get. It isn't,


    While alot of this was being refused my Dad was on the dole so would you still have begrudge him a few extra quid a week? And yes I do understand the irony that social welfare fraud could have been reducing the budgets for these things but if people were adequately provided for they may not have to resort to this.

    Well said . I dont think anybody would begrudge which also proves that in your situation as described , it's the system as much to blame than anything .How many more out there in similar circumstances who will be placed under the same umbrellas as the Plasma tv /flashy car brigade ,the ones who got them while still earning a decent income .


  • #39
    KindOfIrish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 454 ✭✭KindOfIrish


    Mark200 wrote: »
    So what about this... my solution to this would be for the state to provide a financial reward to anyone who successfully reports someone else for defrauding the state. Whenever the person is found to be wrongfully claiming, one month's worth of it will be award to the person who reports them.

    For example:
    Someone claiming the dole when they shouldn't? One months worth of the dole is awarded to whoever reports them

    Someone claiming rent when they shouldn't? One months worth of their rent is awarded to whoever reports them.

    And then obviously a big penalty to those who are found to be defrauding the state.

    Does anyone else agree with this idea? At the moment I don't think there's enough incentive to report people like this, and the people who really do need the money might be losing out because the ones who don't need it are claiming it too.
    Great idea! I would introdice the same scheme for reporting traffic offences as well.;)


  • #40
    Victor_M
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,608 ✭✭✭Victor_M


    Lux23 wrote: »
    My Dad was unemployed for most of the 80s and the early part of the 90s. My mum worked (woefully paid catering job) so most of the time he was at home cooking, cleaning and minding the kids but he would occasionally get a few hours driving here and there which he never said anything about. So in about 92 he was reported after someone driving a hearse for a funeral, he had a visit from SW inspector who he told the truth.

    He used to get £15 for 4 hours work about once a week and he was hoping to get more so he could go on to the back to work scheme within a few months ( a great scheme that was available at the time). The SW inspector was happy with that and was sympathetic to my Dad's situation, he was a married man with two kids and one on the way. My younger brother had just being diagnosed as severly retarded with autistic tendencies and at the time my parents were receiving no support or help with this. Basically one of parents had to stay at home to look after him as noone else could but they also couldn't afford to survive on my mum's meagre wage and the dole so Dad had no choice but do a few hours when he could. My Dad was finally able to return to work when my brother got a school place and he could accept work during the day. In the end the SW Inspector said he would only lose a few quid a week so he said he would turn a blind eye.

    Now I am sure there are people out there who are defrauding the state but I also sure there are people out there who are taking a few hours work here and there simply to get by. I would never report anyone for the simple reason that although it may seem they have all the luxuries they could still be struggling. You have to remember that many people could have gotten their big cars and tvs on tic while they still had a decent income.

    Another thing I find amazing is that people seem to think that if you are entitled to get things from the state that they easy to get. It isn't, below are a list of things my parents had to beg to get for my brother.

    - A school place ( He was lucky to start at 4 but should have been in school at 2)
    - A medical card ( He has epilepsy and autisim but was refused one till he was 16 as the it means tested on his income, so we had to wait till he got disability allowance)
    - Nappies (He was in nappies till he was 9 but we only found incidentally that he was entitled to a free supply when he was 7)
    - Domicillary Allowance - Every parent with a child with a mental/phsyical handicap was entitled to this but he never got it
    - Respite Care - We didn't get regular respite until he was 13, before it was on a cancellation list!!

    While alot of this was being refused my Dad was on the dole so would you still have begrudge him a few extra quid a week? And yes I do understand the irony that social welfare fraud could have been reducing the budgets for these things but if people were adequately provided for they may not have to resort to this.

    Jasus, sounds like it was tough for you growing up.
    Can I just add my tuppence here, I have fairly strong views about anyone who arrives into this country with their hand out having no intention to work, as have I fairly strong views on long term lazy scroungers who never work a day in their lives and sit on their backsides with their hands out demanding this and that, as if they are entitled to it.
    This is where is gets grey, anyone and I mean anyone who is prepared to work for their family has my utmost respect, I don't care if it's menial or not above board or not, cash in hand or not, I'd do the same if I had to.
    Where I, and I think there are a lot of people who feel the same way have the problem is when we hear of, or worse, witness first hand an abuse of a system designed to keep people out of a poverty trap. There are so many unmarried mothers who take the pi$$ out of the system by cohabiting with the fathers or a partner, they get rent allowance, children's allowance, medical cards, etc etc, and on the other hand he gets loads of allowances too, you add them together and you have a fairly substantial income by milking the system and sitting on their holes watching Jeremy Kyle.

    So most decent people won't go running and reporting unless there is a blatent abuse of the system, maybe a few people will out of spite report some people, but they shouldn't be abusing the system in the first place so that's the risk they take.

    So I wouldn't dream of ever reporting someone like you Dad,.
    I have done it once in the past and I would do it again if the circumstances were the same, basically I witnessed the most unashamed milking of our countries SW by a rude, obnoxious, lazy, demanding tenant co-habiting with her BF, put up with it for a few months couldn't take it any most turfed her out after I reported her to the dept of SW.


  • #41
    Mark200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    Long Onion wrote: »
    Like I said - pics or GTFO.

    I must have missed the memo that said you now make the rules for the internet.
    Lux23 wrote: »
    ..
    ..

    While alot of this was being refused my Dad was on the dole so would you still have begrudge him a few extra quid a week? And yes I do understand the irony that social welfare fraud could have been reducing the budgets for these things but if people were adequately provided for they may not have to resort to this.

    No doubt it must have been difficult, but I think the circumstances your parents experienced are very obviously a failure by the state, especially with them not telling you about the allowances you were entitled to. Anyway as I said in my post: "people who really do need the money might be losing out because the ones who don't need it are claiming it too. ". The people who do need it should get it. A big problem is people who did need it then never bothered telling anyone when they no longer needed it (eg if they moved in with a partner and still took the single parent rent allowance).


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  • #42
    Long Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭Long Onion


    Mark200 wrote: »
    I must have missed the memo that said you now make the rules for the internet.

    That's quite ok, but now that you are aware, please try to keep in line in future.

    Thank you.


  • #43
    Lux23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    Mark200 wrote: »
    I must have missed the memo that said you now make the rules for the internet.



    No doubt it must have been difficult, but I think the circumstances your parents experienced are very obviously a failure by the state, especially with them not telling you about the allowances you were entitled to. Anyway as I said in my post: "people who really do need the money might be losing out because the ones who don't need it are claiming it too. ". The people who do need it should get it. A big problem is people who did need it then never bothered telling anyone when they no longer needed it (eg if they moved in with a partner and still took the single parent rent allowance).


    If a woman moves in with a new boyfriend and its not his kid in my mind she is still entitled to single parents allowance, why should the new man fork out for someone else's kid? But that argument aside. How would you judge that someone doesn't need whatever social welfare payments because clearly you can't just assume that they are doing ok because they have a car/big TV? Unless you get a look at their weekly wage and outgoings you have no way of knowing, you could be reporting someone who is quite innocent.

    It wasn't that hard growing up because I didn't really know and Christmas/birthday presents were always bought by uncles and grandad but no doubt about we were dirt poor at one state.


  • #44
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Lux23 wrote: »
    If a woman moves in with a new boyfriend and its not his kid in my mind she is still entitled to single parents allowance, why should the new man fork out for someone else's kid?
    Because the female will refuse sexual intercourse if he doesn't. That's got nothing to do with the government.


  • #45
    Lux23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,134 ✭✭✭Lux23


    ScumLord wrote: »
    Because the female will refuse sexual intercourse if he doesn't. That's got nothing to do with the government.

    Well that's a whole other debate.


  • #46
    Jay P
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,944 ✭✭✭Jay P


    TL;DR

    Surely the state should have their own ways of finding out if there are people defrauding them, instead of relying on whistleblowers. It's their problem if people are claiming benefits when they shouldn't, not mine.


  • #47
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,651 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Victor_M wrote: »
    I have done it once in the past and I would do it again if the circumstances were the same, basically I witnessed the most unashamed milking of our countries SW by a rude, obnoxious, lazy, demanding tenant co-habiting with her BF, put up with it for a few months couldn't take it any most turfed her out after I reported her to the dept of SW.
    I'd expect nothing less from you, Victor.


  • #48
    espinolman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,205 ✭✭✭espinolman


    Mark200 wrote: »

    So what about this... my solution to this would be for the state to provide a financial reward to anyone who successfully reports someone else for defrauding the state.

    .

    Where do you think this is , the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic of Europe !


  • #49
    Mark200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    Jay P wrote: »
    TL;DR

    Surely the state should have their own ways of finding out if there are people defrauding them, instead of relying on whistleblowers. It's their problem if people are claiming benefits when they shouldn't, not mine.

    Eh sorry but every single person in this country avails of services that the state provides in some way or another. And every single person in this country pays taxes in some way or another. So if you don't care then fair enough, but I'm sure the vast majority of tax payers would prefer to see their tax money going to people who need it.
    espinolman wrote: »
    Where do you think this is , the Union of Soviet Socialist Republic of Europe !

    No, the country where very serious cuts in public services are being considered for the next budget so every cent counts.


  • #50
    Daroxtar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,564 ✭✭✭Daroxtar


    Dear The State,
    I know a fella called Sean Fitzpatrick who's after robbing €150 million. Can i please have that seeing as he wont need it now that you're going to sort him out?
    Thanks,
    Daroxtar.


    P.S You are sorting him out, ya?


  • #51
    Jay P
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,944 ✭✭✭Jay P


    Mark200 wrote: »
    Eh sorry but every single person in this country avails of services that the state provides in some way or another. And every single person in this country pays taxes in some way or another. So if you don't care then fair enough, but I'm sure the vast majority of tax payers would prefer to see their tax money going to people who need it.


    I said it's not my problem, not that I don't care. I'm not exactly happy about people essentially stealing money, but it's not up to me to resolve that issue, nor is it up to you. It's up to the governement and the Department of whatever it is.


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  • #52
    espinolman
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,205 ✭✭✭espinolman


    Mark200 wrote: »

    For example:
    Someone claiming the dole when they shouldn't? One months worth of the dole is awarded to whoever reports them

    Someone claiming rent when they shouldn't? One months worth of their rent is awarded to whoever reports them.

    .

    Do you know what would happen , certain people would make it a business , reporting anyone they catch defrauding the state .

    What is wrong with the way things are , where you just report them and not get a reward .

    But if they are rewarded for reporting it , that is like saying the state favours whoever reports it and that is like what went on in communist Russia .


  • #53
    Mark200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭Mark200


    espinolman wrote: »
    Do you know what would happen , certain people would make it a business , reporting anyone they catch defrauding the state .

    What is wrong with the way things are , where you just report them and not get a reward .

    But if they are rewarded for reporting it , that is like saying the state favours whoever reports it and that is like what went on in communist Russia .

    yeah and scheduled train services went on in Nazi Germany. Big woop


  • #54
    Sir Gallagher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,836 ✭✭✭Sir Gallagher


    So some folks are calling for a Stazi in Ireland? Jesus I despair. People should look after their own first and maybe take a look at their own families past, a friends family even!

    Jesus, there's some people here that are calling for rewards for snitching on people....fucking hell that's just low, it's not an irishman's way.. it's not any decent man's way.


  • #55
    TomTom
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭TomTom


    I just wrote a long post just realised near the end I was just ranting so I deleted it.

    Yes there are many many people out there ripping off the system and to be honest looking for a reward to dob them in is feck all different. Do your civic duty and report fraudsters don't be expecting a handout for doing the right thing.


  • #56
    Sir Gallagher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,836 ✭✭✭Sir Gallagher


    TomTom wrote: »
    I just wrote a long post just realised near the end I was just ranting so I deleted it.

    Yes there are many many people out there ripping off the system and to be honest looking for a reward to dob them in is feck all different. Do your civic duty and report fraudsters don't be expecting a handout for doing the right thing.

    So what's the right thing then? Let us all know.


  • #57
    brendansmith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,526 ✭✭✭brendansmith


    TBH if you did take the time and report someone, the chances are that absolutely nothing would happen.


  • #58
    Sir Gallagher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,836 ✭✭✭Sir Gallagher


    brendansmith wrote: »
    TBH if you did take the time and report someone, the chances are that absolutely nothing would happen.

    It doesn't matter there's people employed to look after this type of thing as i said in this thread, we don't want a stazi type situation in Ireland.

    People complain about a lost sense of community in this country, i think some of the attitudes in this thread confirm it.


  • #59
    KingLoser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 725 ✭✭✭KingLoser


    It's as simple as cutting the snake's tail. You'd ignore the bigger problem, and turn the entire population against each other to make and save some scrap change.

    Jesus, FF would love this sh*t.


  • #60
    TomTom
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭TomTom


    Sir Gallagher wrote: »
    So what's the right thing then? Let us all know.


    Use your best judgement and if you think someone is commiting fraud that needs to be stopped then report it.


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  • #61
    Sir Gallagher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,836 ✭✭✭Sir Gallagher


    TomTom wrote: »
    Use your best judgement and if you think someone is commiting fraud that needs to be stopped then report it.

    Who am I to judge anybody?


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