The Koreans must love their kids

MayoForSam · 12-11-2009 12:18PM #1

I was coming back to Dublin last night from Frankfurt and we were going through security screening with a bunch of Koreans on their way home.

Korean Airlines has a notice up which read:

The departure time for KAL 123 will be delayed due to Korean Air Traffic Control caused to noise abatement for university scholastic aptitude test in Korea

WTF? Can you imagine Bat O'Keefe ringing up Ryanair and telling them to bugger off for a bit as the Leaving Cert was on in north Co. Dublin? O'Leary would have a fit!

Or is there something more meaningful in this? Does Korean society have a lot more respect for young folks compared to Ireland? Right now we are about to mortgage our children's future to bail out the banks (NAMA), the child benefit is about to be cut in the budget, university fees will probably come back at some stage (the rich kids should be stumping up already though), there's a complete lack of youth entertainment facilities in general, etc.

Of course traditionally we have been quite happy to send poor little Johnny and Mary off to America or England as soon as they finish school (or even before then) but reminding them to send home half their wage packet to Mammy every week. The previous generation practically kept the county going in the 1950's and 1960's (is history about to repeat itself here?).

No wonder the country is going to pot when young people are treated with no respect, they will only bide their time and get their own back on the next generation, it's all just a vicious circle.

And to really rub it in, the Korean teenagers have mega-broadband on tap and get to play WoW 24 hours a day if they want (not sure if this is necessarily a good thing though).

Blazer · 12-11-2009 12:29PM

Batt O'Keefe don't give one flying fúck about anyone's kids bar his own.
Same goes for all the TD's.
If they really cared they'd be halving their fat salaries, cutting expenses and using the money saved for some good not bailing out their banking and developer buddies.:mad:

minidazzler · 12-11-2009 12:48PM

Berkut wrote: »

Batt O'Keefe don't give one flying fúck about anyone's kids bar his own.
Same goes for all the TD's.
If they really cared they'd be halving their fat salaries, cutting expenses and using the money saved for some good not bailing out their banking and developer buddies.:mad:

Wow, I don't think I have ever seen a thread go on a tangent so fast.

Koreans take school seriously, they are cool I think!!!

petethebrick · 12-11-2009 01:11PM

I lived in Korea for a few years a while back. I vaguely remember hearing something about these aircraft restrictions.
First off - lucky Korean Kids - hardly!

Average schoolday for 11-18 year olds in Korea.
School 8-4, Private after school cram schools in maths,english,science 4-10/11
This is for the majority of kids there. Three weeks holiday in winter and one month in summer.
There is little emphasis on balanced education - cramming in order to achieve the top test scores is what matters - and it's not comparable to the cram ethic in education here, it's much much worse.

Getting into a top university is considered the highest priority in life above all else - health, social development, physical activity etc
Korean mothers actually wait outside the gates of the schools while their equivalent of the leaving cert takes place and pray while holding candles etc
Each year the papers are full of stories of suicides, cheating scandals etc due to the outrageous pressure heaped upon the youth.

Thirdfox · 12-11-2009 01:12PM

Asians in general are quite studious and hard-working (I think I generally conform to the stereotype).

And it's not just about respecting young'uns - it's more to do with discipline and respecting your elders. Though this is changing of course (see the problems Japan is having with its youth).

And please - Koreans play Starcraft not WoW

- at its peak it had 3 tv channels dedicated to showing matches between top players (who also had hot Korean girl groupies too...)

Quite often it's out of necessity that people work hard - nothing gives you more imperative to succeed than to know you'll be a peasant if you don't get into university. And on the flip side, my cousins back in China had very little of a childhood - studying 16 hours, 7 days a week leading up to the Chinese Leaving Cert (and Junior Cert). But that's what fierce competition will do to you - if you're not the best, there's 40 million other people behind you waiting to take your spot. Irish kids don't know how good they have it

See the difference between a Chinese pre-uni exam and a first year English uni exam:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6589301.stm

Blazer · 12-11-2009 01:14PM

minidazzler wrote: »

Wow, I don't think I have ever seen a thread go on a tangent so fast.

Koreans take school seriously, they are cool I think!!!

I know..but jsut the mention of that gimp pissed me off

InReality · 12-11-2009 01:31PM

I remember watching a programme about the pressure kids in japan were under , going to "grind" schools from a very young age.
Seemed really unbearable.

On the flip side I do like to see that education is prioritized over airlines !

pickarooney · 12-11-2009 01:36PM

Thirdfox wrote: »

Asians in general are quite studious and hard-working (I think I generally conform to the stereotype).

And it's not just about respecting young'uns - it's more to do with discipline and respecting your elders. Though this is changing of course (see the problems Japan is having with its youth).

And please - Koreans play Starcraft not WoW - at its peak it had 3 tv channels dedicated to showing matches between top players (who also had hot Korean girl groupies too...)

Quite often it's out of necessity that people work hard - nothing gives you more imperative to succeed than to know you'll be a peasant if you don't get into university. And on the flip side, my cousins back in China had very little of a childhood - studying 16 hours, 7 days a week leading up to the Chinese Leaving Cert (and Junior Cert). But that's what fierce competition will do to you - if you're not the best, there's 40 million other people behind you waiting to take your spot. Irish kids don't know how good they have it

See the difference between a Chinese pre-uni exam and a first year English uni exam:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6589301.stm

That's kind of scary... just how poor the standard of maths in the UK apparently is. They stop doing maths at 16 because it's "too hard" and then go on to do science degrees? I won't pretend I could do the prism question now but I'm pretty sure I would have been able to do it no bother back in school.

WindSock · 12-11-2009 02:28PM

Thirdfox wrote: »

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/education/6589301.stm

That's scary.

No wonder they are going to take over the world. The sheer difference in hard work.

Thirdfox · 12-11-2009 02:29PM

That question is hard (I was an A1 honours maths student and got bogged down after 15 minutes). Of course it's been a few years since I've sat the maths paper. I do remember the hilarious case whereby one of the honours papers in the L. Cert had a triangle where all three sides' angles added up to 183 degrees... It's not just the English who have problems in the maths department

Here's the pdf solution to the Chinese question: http://www.rsc.org/images/Mathematicssolution_tcm18-86553.pdf - it was solved by a 34 year old engineer.

However, for the amount of rote learning they do, they get less time to be "creative" - creativity is also subjective and thus harder to mark.

It's a balance between the two systems that's needed in my opinion, studying poetry is all well and good, but if students no longer know how to spell or use grammar correctly then what is the point of knowing Shakespeare's sonnets? I daresay that most Chinese top university students understand English grammar to a much higher degree than students in a top English/Irish university.

I can't find the original BBC News article on this but CBBC will have to do - some students have started to write English exams in "text-speak":
http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_2197000/2197770.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/2814427.stm

I'm not a grammar Nazi but it is a worrying trend!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 12-11-2009 02:39PM

So tell me again... why is that we judge out feelings for our kids by how hard we make their exams...?

I'd judge how much we respect our kids by the last thread I read. The Crumlin hospital one.

Thirdfox · 12-11-2009 02:42PM

WindSock wrote: »

That's scary.

No wonder they are going to take over the world. The sheer difference in hard work.

The work ethic is frightening - both in terms of how much they work and also the effect it has on the poor children who are in this rat race.

Instead of a race to the bottom, we get a race to the top - because there are so many students taking university exams (10 million a year I believe) for limited spaces it is a dog eat dog world. Whereas over here, anyone who wants to get into university can (funding issues aside).

The old joke is "when a child in England/Ireland etc comes home with 98% on a test the parents are delighted, when a child in China goes home with 98% the parents ask 'how did you lose the 2%?'". It's a tough life living as a child in China - I certainly wouldn't want it for my child. But when losing those 2% could be the difference between placing joint 1st and number 50 in a class, parents and children have very little choice except to knuckle down and study.

WindSock · 12-11-2009 03:07PM

Thirdfox wrote: »

The work ethic is frightening - both in terms of how much they work and also the effect it has on the poor children who are in this rat race.

Instead of a race to the bottom, we get a race to the top - because there are so many students taking university exams (10 million a year I believe) for limited spaces it is a dog eat dog world. Whereas over here, anyone who wants to get into university can (funding issues aside).

The old joke is "when a child in England/Ireland etc comes home with 98% on a test the parents are delighted, when a child in China goes home with 98% the parents ask 'how did you lose the 2%?'". It's a tough life living as a child in China - I certainly wouldn't want it for my child. But when losing those 2% could be the difference between placing joint 1st and number 50 in a class, parents and children have very little choice except to knuckle down and study.

Those poor children must be under unimaginable stress. (And I amn't the type of person to say 'poor children' much...)

How many college places are there?

genericguy · 12-11-2009 03:08PM

Thirdfox wrote: »

And it's not just about respecting young'uns - it's more to do with discipline and respecting your elders. Though this is changing of course (see the problems Japan is having with its youth).

there're no problems with the youth that can't be corrected through the introduction of the BR act.

InKonspikuou2 · 12-11-2009 03:21PM

No wonder they develop almost everything in that part of the world.

Thirdfox · 12-11-2009 03:25PM

WindSock wrote: »

Those poor children must be under unimaginable stress. (And I amn't the type of person to say 'poor children' much...)

How many college places are there?

I believe it's half. And obviously it gets more competitive if you want to get to a top tier school in Beijing/Shanghai etc.

My Mother is a professor who sometimes teaches in China - she told me that one student in her class had never touched a computer before, he was studying computer science and came from a farming background. For him, this was the single chance he has in life to be better than a farmer and look after his parents. (Not disparaging farmers - but in China, farming is a tough, tough life). I can't imagine how much work he had to do to get into the top tier uni.

In Chinese we have the phrase "eat bitter" - meaning blood, sweat and tears now will result in a happier future. But I guess for every person who does make it another doesn't. Everyone recognises the problem (education department, parents, children) but without adequate funding and more universities we just have those tough exams to weed out those who get 98% on an exam and those who get 97%.

But once you get into uni then you start looking at having "fun".

genericguy wrote: »

there're no problems with the youth that can't be corrected through the introduction of the BR act.

BR Act? Google found the Banking Regulations Act of 1949... probably not what you're talking about :P

monosharp · 12-11-2009 04:18PM

MayoForSam wrote: »

The Koreans must love their kids

LOL

Korean life for children in steps.

1. Get born.
2. Start going to kindergarten usually specialized in English/Maths.
3. Start going to elementary school 8am - 3/4pm. Go to Math, English/Japanese/Chinese, Science, Physical (Martial Arts), Music etc private schools from 4pm until midnight.
4. Start going to Middle School (low highschool) from 7/8AM until 2/3/4 pm. Immediately go to various private schools (as above) until midnight/1AM. Repeat 6 days a week (Yes my friends, Saturday IS a school day). Sunday = Homework/Study
7. Start going to highschool, most have to go about 6/7AM (an hour before the teacher comes to self-study) until 2/3/4pm immediately followed by private schools until at least midnight/1AM. Repeat 6 days a week (yes Saturday is a school day).
8. Study study study because if you don't manage to get a high enough score to get into 1 of the top 10-15 Universities in Korea you might as well sell yourself into a job comparable to slavery. 50 million people, hundreds of Universities with even the lower ones having much better facilities etc then our top Universities and basically you NEED to get into the top 10-15. Makes sense yeah ?
9. Get to University, drink piss for 4 years, collect degree. This needs some explanation.

Getting to a good University = EXTREMELY difficult, EXTREMELY competitive. Absolutely unrealistic requirements. Our requirements are nothing in comparison.

Getting a degree from a University once you get in = Unless you literally never go, you just need to do the absolute minimum (or less) of work and they will give you a degree.

10. Get a job and sign your soul/body/life to the company. Work for 6/7 days a week, get paid for 5, work for 12 hours a day (at least), get paid for 9.
11. Get married to someone of similar status around the 30 mark. Buy an apartment.
12. Have kids, send them through the above process. Never see them. Die.

p.s > Vacation = 5 days a year (in a row if your lucky), you could count the national holidays (bank holidays etc) on one hand. This includes school children, summer vacation wtf is that ? :P

The End.

I'm been slightly sarcastic but the above is pretty true. Then again I'm living and married here and I love the place.

wudangclan · 12-11-2009 04:24PM

genericguy wrote: »

there're no problems with the youth that can't be corrected through the introduction of the BR act.

The 'Butt Rape Act'?

Thirdfox · 12-11-2009 04:30PM

Only one job? Pish - you should try the Hong Kong-ers with their 2-3 jobs.

My Chinese friends are amazed that during our summer and winter holidays we don't have assigned homework (which may take up 80% of your holidays). Not to mention the extra grinds schools you'll attend.

But Mono - what do you see in terms of creativity? Or is it rote based learning too? Do they have time to savour and enjoy the works of their Korean Shakespeare or is it high level maths, high level science etc. all the way?

And you may be slightly disparaging our universities a bit too much

- Trinity College is ranked 43rd in the world (apart of other uni's such as LSE and the like). Source being The Times THES report.

sock puppet · 12-11-2009 04:44PM

I find it hard to believe that the question from the UK university is indicative of the average undergrad's ability in maths. Did they publish the whole test anywhere or did they just pick that one question?

seraphimvc · 12-11-2009 04:51PM

i can probably write a thesis based on this topic lol

in short,do appreciate if you are born in the western world - you are lucky that this world is belonged to white. we can discuss the topic brings back to the history of china being 'raped' during 19th century but none of these doesnt matter anymore.

no discrimination or racist or whatever involved, we all know this is AH and i'm still gonna say this - only those who knows how's the world work will agree with what i just said.

say thank you to any asian kids from asia next time :pac:

minidazzler · 12-11-2009 06:01PM

genericguy wrote: »

there're no problems with the youth that can't be corrected through the introduction of the BR act.

I love this post so much!!!

Those of you who are ignorant to the greatness of "Battle Royale" look it up!!!

Thirdfox · 12-11-2009 06:16PM

Just wiki'd it - I'd prefer Death Note...

genericguy · 12-11-2009 06:20PM

minidazzler wrote: »

I love this post so much!!!

Those of you who are ignorant to the greatness of "Battle Royale" look it up!!!

for some reason i knew it'd be you that got that before anyone else mini

genericguy · 12-11-2009 06:21PM

wudangclan wrote: »

The 'Butt Rape Act'?

erm... no.

Cianos · 12-11-2009 06:30PM

Part of the reason why Asians are noticeably better at maths than Westerners is because of how their language deals with numbers. The words to represent numbers are easier to follow when it comes to counting so they start with a better intuition towards the concept of mathematics. For example, the number "37" is written "thirty seven" by us, but "three tens, seven" by them. So doing a sum such as "37+49" for us is a bit tricky and we have to think it through, whereas with their language it is a lot more fluid, "three tens, seven plus four tens, 9". Because there are less symbols in use (eg for us there is the symbol of 30, 40, 7 and 9 but for them it's just multiples of 10, then 7 and 9) the brain can comprehend the task a lot more naturally.

Prof.Badass · 12-11-2009 06:44PM

sock puppet wrote: »

I find it hard to believe that the question from the UK university is indicative of the average undergrad's ability in maths. Did they publish the whole test anywhere or did they just pick that one question?

It's not. It's a test used to identify first year chemistry students who need remedial help with maths.

Considering I believe far too much work is expected from Irish schoolgoers, I have to say I'm appaled reading this thread. People talk about kids working in factorys in india ect, tbh i think this is just as bad.

Life's to be enjoyed ffs.

tech77 · 12-11-2009 06:45PM

Thirdfox wrote: »

That question is hard (I was an A1 honours maths student and got bogged down after 15 minutes). Of course it's been a few years since I've sat the maths paper. I do remember the hilarious case whereby one of the honours papers in the L. Cert had a triangle where all three sides' angles added up to 183 degrees... It's not just the English who have problems in the maths department

Here's the pdf solution to the Chinese question: http://www.rsc.org/images/Mathematicssolution_tcm18-86553.pdf - it was solved by a 34 year old engineer.

However, for the amount of rote learning they do, they get less time to be "creative" - creativity is also subjective and thus harder to mark.

It's a balance between the two systems that's needed in my opinion, studying poetry is all well and good, but if students no longer know how to spell or use grammar correctly then what is the point of knowing Shakespeare's sonnets? I daresay that most Chinese top university students understand English grammar to a much higher degree than students in a top English/Irish university.

I can't find the original BBC News article on this but CBBC will have to do - some students have started to write English exams in "text-speak":
http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/uk/newsid_2197000/2197770.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/2814427.stm

Yeah from what i remember doing of those maths Olympiad things in school, Olympiad-type questions were regarded as standard for the Asian (Chinese/Korean?) LC equivalent apparently.
And IIRC the top spots were all dominated by them.

Thirdfox · 12-11-2009 06:57PM

vinylmesh wrote: »

Considering I believe far too much work is expected from Irish schoolgoers (during term) I have to say I'm appaled reading this thread. People talk about kids working in factorys in india ect, tbh i think this is just as bad.

I have to strongly disagree there - children in the Irish system are not overworked. And if they are to come out into the international marketplace with their 4 months of holidays (with no assignments) and maths-"lite" skills then we'll be obliterated by the Koreans, Chinese and Indians of the world. How many school days did I have a year back in secondary school? Less than half I think.

Just like the red queen in Alice through the looking glass - you have to run hard just to stay in the same spot. The moment you stop working hard, others are perfectly happy to leave you in the dust.

Life's to be enjoyed ffs.

Agree strongly with you on that point - but as someone pointed out earlier, we happen to be living in a developed, first world society. To maintain our edge against developing countries who have a much larger pool of intelligent and hardworking individuals one needs to work harder, not slack off even more. Otherwise we can enjoy our sinking economy as the BRIC countries educate, innovate and develop past the historically developed nations.

So to enjoy our current wealthy (though at the moment things are grim) lifestyle we need to realise that there's no free lunch. If you work hard, you get to play hard.

We could of course just say - we want out of the rat race, let's go back to being an agricultural based economy and live off the land. For some that is enjoyment in life... (unfortunately?) most people would be loathe to give up their iPhones and moche lattes.

Thirdfox · 12-11-2009 07:04PM

tech77 wrote: »

Yeah from what i remember doing of those maths Olympiad things in school, Olympiad-type questions were regarded as standard for the Asian (Chinese/Korean?) LC equivalent apparently.
And IIRC the top spots were all dominated by them.

The BBC did a programme on the British Maths Olympiad team a few years ago.

The British boys said "anything less than gold medal for the Chinese team is a disgrace". Whereas the team from the UK was ecstatic about their collection of bronzes and silvers. I daresay the guys from the UK enjoy a "better" life though as children.

Even from my days as a participant in the Irish Olympiads - I remember the winner of the (Irish) Maths Olympiad was Indian, the Physics one was Russian and the Chemistry one might have been Irish. It may not be as sexy as playing rugby or football - but the ICT economy that our government harps on about relies so much on whether we have a pool of science, engineering, maths talent in the country.

Apologies for raising the standard of conversation on AH by the way!

stovelid · 12-11-2009 09:13PM

Don't they put their loved ones into burgers over there?

The Koreans must love their kids

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