New build question

guideanna · 04-11-2009 1:43pm #1

Hi All,

We're looking at a site at the moment that comes with full pp. The plans are lovely for the house but i've heard you can extent off the back of the house by a certain amount without have to reapply for permission.
Do any of you know what the guidelines of this are? I think it was something like 40sq ft or m??

Also do you know if it would cost much to get the architect to amend the drawings for this and if it would add much to the overall price of the build.

Thanks in advance!

Quazzie · 04-11-2009 1:53pm

I think this only applies for an extension to an existing dwelling. What you'd need to do is build the house. Leave it for a certain perios (over 6 months at least) and then extend.

alfaromeo84 · 04-11-2009 2:12pm

I'm in that exact position. Am at the stage of lining everything up now. My build was for 109sq/m, got an architect to redraw with original plan with 40sq/m extension, cost me €200. Requote from various builders was €20k approx for extension. Mine is off the kitchen, open plan room with vaulted ceiling, 4 velux style roof lights. One of the south facing walls is all glass, with half the gable end glassed.

I am meeting the engineer next week to see what he thinks of the changes, and will he sign off on them. Yes the extension seem to be to an existing dwelling, but what the time scale is, is open to debate, i intend to do mine in one go.

muffler · 04-11-2009 2:13pm

What Quazzie said.

Extensions (up to 40m2) to the rear of houses are exempt only when the house already exists - certainly not exempt if built at the same time as the house is being constructed. To do so would be in breach of the planning permission granted for the original house.

alfaromeo84 · 04-11-2009 2:20pm

I know this might be cheeky, but unless a planning offical comes out, whos to know. Also, i would have thought it was ok to put in the base at the start, and complete the build when the main structure is complete. I have spoke to the builder about this, he is ok with doing the rear on completion of the main house.

I have been told that if i reapply for planning, it will be granted, but i will be caught for a second development fee, i already paid up the first fee, and will lose this. Knowing that these fees will have certainly gone up, i will be robbed, but in a polite way.

Poor Uncle Tom · 04-11-2009 2:46pm

alfaromeo84 wrote: »

I know this might be cheeky, but unless a planning offical comes out, whos to know.

The following is taken from the charter,

Any thread/post that is looking for ways to get around the planning process, or building regulations, or any other statutory legislation, or advising somebody to ignore these legislations and regulations, will be deleted and and the poster will be banned indefinitely.

alfaromeo84 you are sailing very close to the wind on this one.

alfaromeo84 wrote: »

Also, i would have thought it was ok to put in the base at the start, and complete the build when the main structure is complete.

This is not the case. The house has to be completed before an exempted development can begin.

alfaromeo84 wrote: »

I have spoke to the builder about this, he is ok with doing the rear on completion of the main house.

Of course he is, he has nothing to lose only work to gain from the situation, you would be the person flouting the planning laws.

alfaromeo84 wrote: »

I have been told that if i reapply for planning, it will be granted, but i will be caught for a second development fee, i already paid up the first fee, and will lose this. Knowing that these fees will have certainly gone up, i will be robbed, but in a polite way.

If you start your build as granted planning permission and make an application for planning permission to extend the dwelling house as granted planning permission your contribution will be calculated on the floor area of the extension only. If planning permission is granted quickly the extension could catch up to the house and both could be finished together.
Happy days

.

guideanna · 04-11-2009 3:26pm

Oh really. I honestly thought you could extent to within a certain amount and not have to get planning. Didn't think it would make a difference if the house was already built or not.
Is there anything i can do to increase my floor space at building stage without having to go back for new planning (really don't want the hassle of this)?

Also looking at building a small garage to the back of the house does anyone know what the outlines for this is, like can i build a small garage without having to get planning, and is that ok to be build while the house is being done?

Poor Uncle Tom · 04-11-2009 3:41pm

guideanna wrote: »

Oh really. I honestly thought you could extent to within a certain amount and not have to get planning. Didn't think it would make a difference if the house was already built or not.
Is there anything i can do to increase my floor space at building stage without having to go back for new planning (really don't want the hassle of this)?

I'm afraid there is no provision in the Planning & Development Act for this, until the house is completed first. It is all down to design, it can work very well with the Planning Act, adding the 40m2 on afterwards. Personally I would like to see all the foundations go down together, that is why I advise anyone to have all the planning permissions sorted out before starting to build.

guideanna wrote: »

Also looking at building a small garage to the back of the house does anyone know what the outlines for this is, like can i build a small garage without having to get planning, and is that ok to be build while the house is being done?

You can build a garage behind the front of the house without planning permission as an exempted development, only after the house is completed. See below (Class 3, Part 1, Second Schedule, Planning and Development Regulations, 2001, SI No. 600 of 2001).
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/si/0600.htmlCLASS 3

The construction, erection or placing within the curtilage of a house of any tent, awning, shade or other object, greenhouse, garage, store, shed or other similar structure.
1. No such structure shall be constructed, erected or placed forward of the front wall of a house.
2. The total area of such structures constructed, erected or placed within the curtilage of a house shall not, taken together with any other such structures previously constructed, erected or placed within the said curtilage, exceed 25 square metres.
3. The construction, erection or placing within the curtilage of a house of any such structure shall not reduce the amount of private open space reserved exclusively for the use of the occupants of the house to the rear or to the side of the house to less than 25 square metres.
4. The external finishes of any garage or other structure constructed, erected or placed to the side of a house, and the roof covering where any such structure has a tiled or slated roof, shall conform with those of the house.
5. The height of any such structure shall not exceed, in the case of a building with a tiled or slated pitched roof, 4 metres or, in any other case, 3 metres.
6. The structure shall not be used for human habitation or for the keeping of pigs, poultry, pigeons, ponies or horses, or for any other purpose other than a purpose incidental to the enjoyment of the house as such.

RKQ · 04-11-2009 3:59pm

Quazzie is correct.
In simple terms a Grant of Permission is like a Contract with the Council. Both parties agree to build that exact house on that exact part of the site in that exact field.

Therefore any changes to the terms of the contract require a New Contract to be made.

All buildings build by mortgage require a Certificate of Compliance with Planning Permission. No one would or should issue a Cert if there is an unauthorised extension on the rear.

r-i-tect · 04-11-2009 4:25pm

alfaromeo84 wrote: »

I know this might be cheeky, but unless a planning offical comes out, whos to know. Also, i would have thought it was ok to put in the base at the start, and complete the build when the main structure is complete. I have spoke to the builder about this, he is ok with doing the rear on completion of the main house.

There are a lot of bored Building Controls officers looking to keep themselves busy.

A builder will happily agree with anything you ask them to do as long as it involves extra revenue to them.

guideanna · 04-11-2009 5:58pm

Ah are you serious, i know of people who build their garages without permission while the house was being done.
Ok so maybe i won't build it while i'm doing the house...;););)

Jimbo · 04-11-2009 6:05pm

guideanna wrote: »

Ah are you serious, i know of people who build their garages without permission while the house was being done.
Ok so maybe i won't build it while i'm doing the house...;););)

Unfortunatly, that's not considered a valid excuse to do it yourself.

Planning control officers are clamping down on this kind of thing more and more now due to lack of anything else to do.

Save yourself the hassle of an enforcement notice and apply beforehand.
It shouldnt be too expensive since most of the drawings would be done already.

muffler · 04-11-2009 6:06pm

guideanna you have got good advice here and you can either take or leave it.

Please dont enter into any further discussion here on any matters that will contravene the Planning & Development Acts.

guideanna · 04-11-2009 8:45pm

Ok thanks.
So can i just check then. Even if my garage is going to be under the 40sq m (or whatever that guideline is), i still have to apply for permission?
And if i wait for the house to be finished and then build it i don't need the permission??
Doesn't really make sense, so i'm thinking i'm confused somewhere?

Poor Uncle Tom · 04-11-2009 8:56pm

What you say is correct, except it's 25m2 for the garage, read post No. 8.

gman2k · 04-11-2009 9:42pm

Even putting down foundations for extension at orig build time and covering them over is unauthorised development, and you could be prosecuted for same.
All it takes is someone to let the planning office know about same, or even a site visit!

I worked on the periphery of a project a few years ago in Dublin, where client, architect and builder tried to cute hoors with the scheme - extra height, foundations for additional building etc etc etc, and it came back to bite all of them very badly....
Building control went over everything with a fine tooth comb and caused huge financial losses for the client/developer and dates in court.

guideanna · 07-11-2009 6:09pm

Hi guys,

Was getting a bit confused as to why i could build a garage under the certain size without planning but only AFTER the house was finished so i rang the county planning department and was told the following...

I CAN build the extension to the rear of the house without planning, while building the house itself, once i come in line with all the regulations of not obstructing views, going over the certain size of 25sq m etc etc.
Also i CAN build my detached garage while the house is being build, without planning permission again subject to the conditions of the height, roofing, and keeping it withing 40 sq m.

Also i was told that one does NOT counter act the other, so say for example i build the 25 sq m off my house this does not mean i can only have a garage amounting to 5 sq m, if you get me!

Apperanly what you were all saying WAS correct but the laws have now changed to allow people to do the work WHILE building. Makes a lot more sense if you ask me.
I was told i will of course need to obtain a certificate of compliance on these aspects for if i ever want to sell the property but this is something we will have our engineer do as the house goes along anyway so i can't see there being any problems.

Was chuffed with that news so i can have my extension AND my garage after all!!!

:D:D
Am also getting a copy of the regulations with these part highlighted sent out to me so in case it ever comes up i can show the builder etc.

RKQ · 07-11-2009 7:30pm

guideanna wrote: »

I CAN build the extension to the rear of the house without planning, while building the house itself, once i come in line with all the regulations of not obstructing views, going over the certain size of 25sq m etc etc.

Also i CAN build my detached garage while the house is being build, without planning permission again subject to the conditions of the height, roofing, and keeping it withing 40 sq m.

Well done Guideanna, it certainly makes common sense to allow it. I'd like to see a copy of the document the Planners are sending you - or if you could post a reference later. It would be very useful to many people here.

liamolaighin · 07-11-2009 8:04pm

Think your allowed 400 sq/ft without planning. So build your house first, wait a year n then build on yor extension. Build could be prepped for this work at build stage i expect

muffler · 07-11-2009 9:07pm

guideanna wrote: »

I CAN build the extension to the rear of the house without planning, while building the house itself, once i come in line with all the regulations of not obstructing views, going over the certain size of 25sq m etc etc.
Also i CAN build my detached garage while the house is being build, without planning permission again subject to the conditions of the height, roofing, and keeping it withing 40 sq m.

First of all I have highlighted the floor areas but you need to swap them around -ie. 40m2 for extension and 25m2 for the garage. Just to keep you right

guideanna wrote: »

Apperanly what you were all saying WAS correct but the laws have now changed to allow people to do the work WHILE building. Makes a lot more sense if you ask me.

Thats news to me and if it is factual then it makes no sense whatsoever. But then again a lot of the requirements dont make much sense at times. I dont see anywhere in the planning act that allows you to build a house up to 40 m2 bigger than the originally approved plans and still be in compliance with the permission granted.

guideanna wrote: »

Am also getting a copy of the regulations with these part highlighted sent out to me so in case it ever comes up i can show the builder etc.

When you get this written confirmation would you mind scanning and upload to here please. Id be very interested in seeing the basis for the this.

On a general note, as most regulars here will be aware, there are different parts of the Act that are interpreted differently by various PA's around the country.

guideanna · 08-11-2009 5:56pm

Will do muffler. I made sure what they were telling me was correct though i even made her go and double check for me. It was Wexford planning board i was onto.
Why do you say it makes no sense whatsoever if it's true muffler?

muffler · 08-11-2009 7:14pm

guideanna wrote: »

Why do you say it makes no sense whatsoever if it's true muffler?

Its a fairly basic thing really. You apply for and get the planning permission and the permission will state that it is to be built "in accordance with the plans submitted with the application"

I dont see how you can then increase the size of the house by up to 40 sq. metres and still be in compliance with the permission granted.

Exemptions for extensions were always applicable only to existing houses so its a bit Irish as they say that you could be allowed to extend something that still isnt built.

guideanna · 09-11-2009 10:52am

Maybe so but in the eyes of the person building the house it makes perfect sense to do the "extension" while building to save on cost at a later date.

Also i don't see what difference building a garage during or after the build makes to anyone so for me it is a relief to know i will not be breaking any laws by doing it at build stage.

muffler · 09-11-2009 11:13am

guideanna wrote: »

Maybe so but in the eyes of the person building the house it makes perfect sense to do the "extension" while building to save on cost at a later date.

Also i don't see what difference building a garage during or after the build makes to anyone so for me it is a relief to know i will not be breaking any laws by doing it at build stage.

On both those points why didnt you incorporate them into your application originally and get permission for the lot at the same time?

guideanna · 09-11-2009 11:44am

I bought the site with planning permission so i wasn't involved with any of the design process. Would like to extend off the rear as we just feel we could use the extra space.

Mono25 · 11-11-2009 10:55pm

muffler wrote: »

On both those points why didnt you incorporate them into your application originally and get permission for the lot at the same time?

one reason for not adding it originally would be to pay less contribution/fee to the LA, which i know in fingal is based on the size of the house.

thats why im surprised that you are allowed to do this

Mellor · 12-11-2009 4:07am

guideanna wrote: »

Was getting a bit confused as to why i could build a garage under the certain size without planning but only AFTER the house was finished so i rang the county planning department and was told the following...

I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned already, but the reason you can't do them together is because it would make proposed planning areas irrelevant.

Somebody applies for a 240sqm house, council say its is to be dropped back to 200sqm. He builds anyway citing a 40m extension.
This also applies if the council never drop it back, ie he applies for 140, gets approved, build 180.

Allowing this really undermines the planning process.

An "extension" like this could also be used to alter an elevation to get around restrictions on a side or rear elevation.

Apperanly what you were all saying WAS correct but the laws have now changed to allow people to do the work WHILE building. Makes a lot more sense if you ask me.

News to me if it changed. I'm not aware of any amendment to the planning act.
i'm not saying there hasn't been, after all, i'm almost 11,000 miles away, so these things can slip by.

Was chuffed with that news so i can have my extension AND my garage after all!!! :D:D
Am also getting a copy of the regulations with these part highlighted sent out to me so in case it ever comes up i can show the builder etc.

Before you get your hopes up, get it in writing.
I've heard of many people being told things over the phone that were totally incorrect. normally, its not a planner but a clerical officer that you are speaking to, initially at least

RKQ wrote: »

Well done Guideanna, it certainly makes common sense to allow it. I'd like to see a copy of the document the Planners are sending you - or if you could post a reference later. It would be very useful to many people here.

I really don't think it makes sense to allow it. As there would be no way to police it.
An extension type structure 9ie a projection) to the rear is one thing, but an increase by 40sqm (uniformly to rear or side) is different. I can't see a way to separate them, in a legal sense if it was allowed.

guideanna wrote: »

Maybe so but in the eyes of the person building the house it makes perfect sense to do the "extension" while building to save on cost at a later date.

Also i don't see what difference building a garage during or after the build makes to anyone so for me it is a relief to know i will not be breaking any laws by doing it at build stage.

You won't actually know that until you get that peice of paper in your hand.
the number one piece of advice given out on this site, time and time again, is get it in writing.

Always cover your ass with a piece of paper.

Poor Uncle Tom · 12-11-2009 2:11pm

guideanna wrote: »

Hi guys,

Was getting a bit confused as to why i could build a garage under the certain size without planning but only AFTER the house was finished so i rang the county planning department and was told the following...

I CAN build the extension to the rear of the house without planning, while building the house itself, once i come in line with all the regulations of not obstructing views, going over the certain size of 25sq m etc etc.
Also i CAN build my detached garage while the house is being build, without planning permission again subject to the conditions of the height, roofing, and keeping it withing 40 sq m.

Also i was told that one does NOT counter act the other, so say for example i build the 25 sq m off my house this does not mean i can only have a garage amounting to 5 sq m, if you get me!

Apperanly what you were all saying WAS correct but the laws have now changed to allow people to do the work WHILE building. Makes a lot more sense if you ask me.
I was told i will of course need to obtain a certificate of compliance on these aspects for if i ever want to sell the property but this is something we will have our engineer do as the house goes along anyway so i can't see there being any problems.

Was chuffed with that news so i can have my extension AND my garage after all!!! :D:D
Am also getting a copy of the regulations with these part highlighted sent out to me so in case it ever comes up i can show the builder etc.

I have checked, independantly with 4 LA's on this issue and have found that there has not been any change in the planning Act in this regard. A building has to be completed before the exemptions can be constructed in each case the Clerical Officer/Director of Services said it is unfortunate but that is the law.

So, maybe your LA is being lenient, but it could come back to bite them. I would seriously doubt that they will put it in writing to you.

sydthebeat · 12-11-2009 2:38pm

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

I have checked, independantly with 4 LA's on this issue and have found that there has not been any change in the planning Act in this regard. A building has to be completed before the exemptions can be constructed in each case the Clerical Officer/Director of Services said it is unfortunate but that is the law.

So, maybe your LA is being lenient, but it could come back to bite them. I would seriously doubt that they will put it in writing to you.

thats exactly the explanation i have ALWAYS received from any LA ive contacted on it, plus the DOE.....

an extension can only exist if there is a building to extend...

Mellor · 13-11-2009 1:54am

I'll wait and see what transpires, but I imagine our initial suspicions are correct.
OP between the regulars here, there are easily over over 200 years experience of Irish planning matters. (i'd love to know the actual number)
And we are always coming across slight differences between LAs, even though all operate from the same laws. This is fine, and I welcome any LA that takes matters into their own hands in the interest of the man on the street. As long as they are willing to put it in writing.

guideanna · 13-11-2009 3:50pm

Hi All,

Sorry only getting back now, i got the regulations posted out to me but they didn't highlight the bits relative to my query. Just rang them there to (triple) check and was told in relation to the house extension:
Ref Regulations Class 1 part a) where the house has not been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension shall not exceed 40sq m.

and in relation to the garage:
Ref Class 3

No where in the regulations supplied to me from Wexford Co Co, planning dept, does it state that i cannot build my extension or my garage WHILE building my house. I clarified this on the phone and will take your advise of also requesting by email or letter.
Am meeting architect tomorrow to have our amends made and get the garage plan done.

New build question

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