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Failing to see how ridiculous religion is until you escape it

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  • #32
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I don't think he should be so baffled if the reason why people aren't laughing with him is patently obvious.

    I'm simply saying that I can't reconcile how he thinks the spaceship is completely different to heaven, unless I introduce brainwashing or compartmentalization.


  • #33
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    liamw wrote: »
    I'm simply saying that I can't reconcile how he thinks the spaceship is completely different to heaven, unless I introduce brainwashing or compartmentalization.

    It's because christianity is true and scientology isn't, duuuuh :rolleyes:


  • #34
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Sam Vimes wrote: »
    Yes it is patently obvious, it's because people don't realise how ridiculous their own religion is until they escape it as the thread title suggests. Everyone laughs at creationists too but they don't laugh themselves, there are a lot of them and they don't appear to be going anywhere but that in no way makes their claims any less laughable. It's an argument ad populum

    Probably because people think that their religion makes sense. Pretty much as you think atheism makes sense. It's pretty much just as conceivable that someone could laugh at atheism, it wouldn't be a particularly great argument against it mind. In the same way sure people can laugh at Christianity, but where will it get you? It generally tends to lead people right where they started.


  • #35
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Probably because people think that their religion makes sense. Pretty much as you think atheism makes sense. It's pretty much just as conceivable that someone could laugh at atheism, it wouldn't be a particularly great argument against it mind.

    Probably because people think that their religion makes sense. Pretty much as you think 'lack of belief in a religion' makes sense. It's pretty much just as conceivable that someone could laugh at 'a lack of belief in a religion', it wouldn't be a particularly great argument against it mind.


  • #36
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Probably because people think that their religion makes sense. Pretty much as you think atheism makes sense. It's pretty much just as conceivable that someone could laugh at atheism, it wouldn't be a particularly great argument against it mind. In the same way sure people can laugh at Christianity, but where will it get you? It generally tends to lead people right where they started.


    Atheists hardly agree on anything other than there is no God.
    Christians on the other hand must agree on.
    God, Jesus, Holy Spirit.
    Resurrection of Jesus.
    Original Sin.
    etc etc

    Laugh at an atheism and your only really laughing at one idea;laugh at creationism and you're laughing at a sh1t load of crap.


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  • #37
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Probably because people think that their religion makes sense. Pretty much as you think atheism makes sense. It's pretty much just as conceivable that someone could laugh at atheism, it wouldn't be a particularly great argument against it mind. In the same way sure people can laugh at Christianity, but where will it get you? It generally tends to lead people right where they started.

    Who made an argument against it? All he said was that it baffles him. What leads you right back where you started is pointing out that people believe the thing that baffles him and they're going to whether he likes it or not. We know that, no one ever suggested otherwise, it's a pointless statement, or to use your own words "it's not a particularly great argument against it". He remains as baffled after the argument ad populum as before.


  • #38
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    liamw wrote: »
    Probably because people think that their religion makes sense. Pretty much as you think 'lack of belief in a religion' makes sense. It's pretty much just as conceivable that someone could laugh at 'a lack of belief in a religion', it wouldn't be a particularly great argument against it mind.

    Indeed, I agree with this also.

    Laughing about religion or atheism is really futile if you are using it as a means of encouraging debate.

    It's probably the reason why I prefer people who are open to those who are closed. The most fulfilling discussions I've had with people, even though they end up disagreeing are with agnostics rather than atheists.


  • #39
    Sam Vimes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Indeed, I agree with this also.

    Laughing about religion or atheism is really futile if you are using it as a means of encouraging debate.
    Who said he was using it as a means of encouraging debate?
    Jakkass wrote: »
    It's probably the reason why I prefer people who are open to those who are closed. The most fulfilling discussions I've had with people, even though they end up disagreeing are with agnostics rather than atheists.

    Jakkass, you have said yourself many times that you believe in christianity and the only thing that would change your mind is the christian god being totally disproven. If that's not closed I don't know what is


  • #40
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    liamw wrote: »
    Isn't this some proof of brainwashing?

    Not really. Humans are naturally prone to believing in things like religion.


  • #41
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Indeed, I agree with this also.

    Laughing about religion or atheism is really futile if you are using it as a means of encouraging debate.

    It's probably the reason why I prefer people who are open to those who are closed. The most fulfilling discussions I've had with people, even though they end up disagreeing are with agnostics rather than atheists.

    *Bangs Head*
    (Sorry this misconception is far too common)

    Agnosticism is a qualifier of NOT KNOWING.

    You cannot be an "agnostic"
    You are either theist or atheist.
    And then you choose your strength of that belief set.

    Agnostics can be theists or non theists e.g
    Agnostic Atheist - I don't believe in a God but I don't know if there is one or not.
    Agnostic Theist. - I believe in a God but I don't know if there is one or not
    Then there's:
    Definite Atheist. - I know there is no God.
    Definite Theist - I know there is a God.

    The latter two are nuts imo.


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  • #42
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    The most fulfilling discussions I've had with people, even though they end up disagreeing are with agnostics rather than atheists.

    Well I think we can both agree that discussions with theists are unfulfilling ;)


  • #43
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Well I think we can both agree that discussions with theists are unfulfilling ;)

    I was referring to Christian - Secular dialogue rather than anything else. Of course I like a chat with my Christian friends as well :)

    I understand if talking to me is a bit drab after all the times we've been through Wicky :pac:


  • #44
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Indeed, I agree with this also.

    Laughing about religion or atheism is really futile if you are using it as a means of encouraging debate.

    It's probably the reason why I prefer people who are open to those who are closed. The most fulfilling discussions I've had with people, even though they end up disagreeing are with agnostics rather than atheists.

    You know, I'm not here to slag people off, the reason I might slag someones beliefs it to try figure out why they believe in them. It's an interesting experiment, most of the time the religious person just gets angry and has no argument.

    Belief in religion to the point where you devote a lot of time to it baffles me. You wouldn't devote your time to anything else that has zero evidence and sounds as ridiculous. You can't deny that heaven and hell sound like ridiculous concepts.

    I just don't get it! I don't get why not just say that when you die, that's it. The most obvious explanation, no reason to think otherwise. Why you would belief in all these supernatural events, when you could just attribute them to myth. Why believe in absolte morals, when it's obvious that morals change.


  • #45
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Sam: I'm willing to accept I could be wrong. Given what I have been through in life, what I have experienced, and what I have come to know I don't think it is very likely. I'm not willing to get into a big long debate about it, I'm merely commenting on my experiences I've had speaking one to one.

    I've rarely encountered people in real life as vehemently against the idea of God as on this forum, I have encountered a lot of people who are curious though which is pretty cool.
    liamw wrote: »
    You know, I'm not here to slag people off, the reason I might slag someones beliefs it to try figure out why they believe in them. It's an interesting experiment, most of the time the religious person just gets angry and has no argument.

    Belief in religion to the point where you devote a lot of time to it baffles me. You wouldn't devote your time to anything else that has zero evidence and sounds as ridiculous. You can't deny that heaven and hell sound like ridiculous concepts.

    I just don't get it! I don't get why not just say that when you die, that's it. The most obvious explanation, no reason to think otherwise. Why you would belief in all these supernatural events, when you could just attribute them to myth. Why believe in absolte morals, when it's obvious that morals change.

    I can appreciate this. However, perhaps instead of laughing, if you want to find out about their beliefs they might find it a bit more comfortable if you ask them straight out. A lot of people find the idea of talking about God in public to be daunting, but I've found over the last while if it's done in the right way it can be very interesting.


  • #46
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I've rarely encountered people in real life as vehemently against the idea of God as on this forum, I have encountered a lot of people who are curious though which is pretty cool.

    That's why it's the atheist forum ;) A lot of people on this forum have thought a lot more critically than the average person about belief in religion, and have views and opinions on it.


  • #47
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I can appreciate this. However, perhaps instead of laughing, if you want to find out about their beliefs they might find it a bit more comfortable if you ask them straight out. A lot of people find the idea of talking about God in public to be daunting, but I've found over the last while if it's done in the right way it can be very interesting.

    You're probably right. Thanks for the advice


  • #48
    chop86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 61 ✭✭chop86


    Liamw: The best answer i've ever heard to your question was from (the great) Stephen Fry, he says they are just scared!
    its that simple ladies and gentlemen, people believe because they are scared of life AND scared of dying
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zHcBF-g7-c
    Oh and they are foolish and ignorant to the facts!


  • #49
    silent sage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 230 ✭✭silent sage


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Not really. Humans are naturally prone to believing in things like religion.

    Yes, but surely being urged to repeat the following over and over again at a very young age is going to have an impact on their judgement...
    "We believe in one God,
    the Father, the Almighty,
    Maker of heaven and earth,
    of all things seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
    the only son of God,
    eternally begotten of the Father,
    God from God, Light from Light,
    true God from true God,
    begotten, not made,
    One in Being with the Father
    Through him all things were made.
    For us men and for our salvation
    He came down from heaven:
    by the power of the holy spirit
    He was born of the Virgin Mary,
    and became man.
    For our sake He was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
    He suffered, died, and was buried.
    On the third day, He rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
    He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
    and His kingdom will have no end.
    We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life,
    who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
    With the Father and the Son He is worshiped and glorified.
    He has spoken through the prophets.
    We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come.
    Amen. "
    I can't see someone coming up with that on their own accord.


  • #50
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    chop86 wrote: »
    Liamw: The best answer i've ever heard to your question was from (the great) Stephen Fry, he says they are just scared!
    its that simple ladies and gentlemen, people believe because they are scared of life AND scared of dying
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zHcBF-g7-c
    Oh and they are foolish and ignorant to the facts!
    This is a common thought, Bertrand Russell said the same thing and probably many before him.


  • #51
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    chop86 wrote: »
    Liamw: The best answer i've ever heard to your question was from (the great) Stephen Fry, he says they are just scared!
    its that simple ladies and gentlemen, people believe because they are scared of life AND scared of dying
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zHcBF-g7-c
    Oh and they are foolish and ignorant to the facts!

    I actually think the only way it will be explained is through investigation of brain evolution.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iMmvu9eMrg


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  • #52
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I've rarely encountered people in real life as vehemently against the idea of God as on this forum, I have encountered a lot of people who are curious though which is pretty cool.

    Isn't that just another way of saying I don't like people who disagree with you?

    You seem perfectly happy with people who are very very sure there is a god, yet seem to think people who are very very sure that humans are just imagining all this are some how bad?

    It is rather confusing :confused:

    It is like saying you think it is wonderful that people think about issues of religion, consider stuff, be open to stuff, just so long as they don't reach a different conclusion to me


  • #53
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    silent sage wrote: »
    Yes, but surely being urged to repeat the following over and over again at a very young age is going to have an impact on their judgement...

    Well yes it means they are going to be Christian rather than Hindu. It doesn't really mean they are going to be Christian rather than atheist.

    People tend to stop at the first religion they are exposed to because all religions are designed to fit the natural instinct we have. The indoctrination of children is not really about making children religion, children are already religion, it is makings sure they pick the "right one"


  • #54
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Isn't that just another way of saying I don't like people who disagree with you?

    No, that would be extremely childish. I like a lot of people who are vehemently against God. I just prefer discussing about God with those who are more open to the idea.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    You seem perfectly happy with people who are very very sure there is a god, yet seem to think people who are very very sure that humans are just imagining all this are some how bad?

    In terms of talking with Christians it is different. I am a part of a faith based community with them. Christians meet with each other for fellowship, and that they might encourage each other to live and speak for Jesus in their daily lives.

    It's kind of like why people with a common interest meet together.

    As for people who are very, very, very sure there is a God, I'm not sure I always find that good. It is possible for someone who is very very very sure to be quite rude about their faith and not communicate it in the right way.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    It is like saying you think it is wonderful that people think about issues of religion, consider stuff, be open to stuff, just so long as they don't reach a different conclusion to me

    Agnostics reach a rather different conclusion to me. It's just I think that it's more likely that you will find an agnostic who is willing to have a respectful discussion with you about God than an atheist.


  • #55
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Agnostics reach a rather different conclusion to me.
    Yeah but they don't say you are wrong. They say they can't determine if you are wrong or not and are open to the idea that you might be right.

    Atheists say you are wrong, and then tend to list of all the reasons you are wrong.

    That seems to get the backs up of a lot of theists, they seem to take it rather personally. Which is odd considering theists tell atheists they are wrong all time and in fact because they are wrong they face eternal torture, yet most atheists don't seem to take that as bad :)
    Jakkass wrote: »
    It's just I think that it's more likely that you will find an agnostic who is willing to have a respectful discussion with you about God than an atheist.

    Possibly but isn't that just because again they won't say you wrong, or call you on faulty reasoning?


  • #56
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Yeah but they don't say you are wrong. They say they can't determine if you are wrong or not and are open to the idea that you might be right.

    Many do pose objections to the points that I would put across but they do it differently.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Atheists say you are wrong, and then tend to list of all the reasons you are wrong.

    Well agnostics also wouldn't agree. However, it's more the tone I think.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    That seems to get the backs up of a lot of theists, they seem to take it rather personally.

    I try not to, but you're right it can happen. The same is true of both sides I would have thought.
    Wicknight wrote: »
    Possibly but isn't that just because again they won't say you wrong, or call you on faulty reasoning?

    I've been called several times where people have disagreed. I don't think that's it somehow.


  • #57
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Many do pose objections to the points that I would put across but they do it differently.

    Not sure what you mean but ok. Personally I have never had much of an interesting debate with an agnostic.


  • #58
    liamw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭liamw


    Wicknight wrote: »
    That seems to get the backs up of a lot of theists, they seem to take it rather personally. Which is odd considering theists tell atheists they are wrong all time and in fact because they are wrong they face eternal torture, yet most atheists don't seem to take that as bad :)

    Isn't that becuase the devil has control of us or something?


  • #59
    silent sage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 230 ✭✭silent sage


    Wicknight wrote: »
    Well yes it means they are going to be Christian rather than Hindu. It doesn't really mean they are going to be Christian rather than atheist.

    People tend to stop at the first religion they are exposed to because all religions are designed to fit the natural instinct we have. The indoctrination of children is not really about making children religion, children are already religion, it is makings sure they pick the "right one"

    I'd imagine that if someone was drawn to a religion without any figure of authority telling them it's the truth from a young age, you would have a much better chance of questioning these beliefs at a later stage. Without the nagging thought of ideas that were drilled into you as a kid. Seems like it could be similar to brainwashing.


  • #60
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    liamw wrote: »
    Isn't that becuase the devil has control of us or something?

    It is because you are wicked and deserving of punishment, another idea that fits in with the evolved instincts of humans.

    I would love for someone to compile a list of all the psychological instinctive emotional behaviour science has uncovered in humans and then match that with the dogma of the various religions and how the religions play on these instincts. It would make a pretty clear visual of why humans tend to be religious and show the common doctrines of human religions need to be successful at gaining followers.

    So much of religious faith is based on the notion that what the religion teaches "makes sense", yet so few religious people seem to wonder why that is beyond simply thinking it must be because my religion is true (and ignore all the other religions)

    Dawkins had a similar story to yours about a group of Church of England members dismissing tribes in the Pacific islands who worship sky spirits, without any sort of realisation that they do basically the same thing.

    Really I would have thought Scientology, which simply manipulates the emotional instincts of people that other religions have always done but in such an obvious way, would have caused people to abandon religion wholesale, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

    To me it is like being shown how one magician does a magic trick, say reads a number you are thinking of and then shows you how the implanted that number before he started, for you to then, when you see another magician do the same trick, think "Wow, amazing, I wonder if he reads minds"

    No! He is doing the same trick the other guy just did. Christianity is doing the same set of tricks Scientology is doing, they just change the superficial details. Yet Christians can look at Scientology and go "How can people believe that nonsense!" and turn back to believing a supernatural deity cares about them and wants them to avoid eternal punishment by simply entering into a relationship with Jesus.

    Personally I think Hubbard was a genius :pac:

    So I agree with you it is bizarre but it shows we shouldn't underestimate the human minds need to work this way, to view the world in this way

    Even after the curtain has been drawn back we still desperately need to believe we are talking to the Wizard, not a man pulling strings and levers.


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  • #61
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    silent sage wrote: »
    you would have a much better chance of questioning these beliefs at a later stage.

    Possibly but again they become My Own Personal Religion with Angels and Fairies, rather than Christian. Not atheist rather than Christian. You question the Christianity and become a Hindu instead. Or become a member of your own person religion.

    If you leave a child to his own devices he will just make up his own religion. I would go so far as to say you need to see different religions around you to conclude that humans make religions up and thus become an atheist.
    silent sage wrote: »
    Without the nagging thought of ideas that were drilled into you as a kid.

    That is the thing, the nagging thoughts are already there. Religion is a reflection of the way our brains work, it is a result of this not the cause.


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