Is it no really time to assess how much the irish language costs us all?

Aard wrote: »

Can any of the pro-Irish tell me that my analogy is incorrect?

I'll admit you're not wrong, but I would support optional Irish from Junior cert onwards in the right conditions..

I think a basic level of Irish should be thought to everyone in Ireland. But I don't even NEED Irish at this stage

LimeFruitGum wrote: »

I have worked in translation for many years and believe me, 99% of the time, the Irish semi-states/co. councils always pick the cheapest quote.

They're only waking up to the fact now, that it is possible to make further savings by using special translation software, where you don't pay for repeated words or segments that have already been translated.

Annual reports and accounts don't change that much year after year. After one or two reports, you might only have to translate 30-50% of the next report from scratch, so there are good savings to be made.

I know a few translation companies, who are nothing more than file forwarders, who make their freelancers use translation software, but don't bother passing on the savings and charge the customer full whack.

You don't have to translate every single thing under the act. Certain key items like the Annual report, accounts etc must be made available in both languages, but it is up to the institution after that if they want to translate other things too.

Mes deux cents...

In my last job we produced a report to get the LA's accounts from their financial system. A five figure amount was spent on getting the accounts translated by an Irish university. Half the words on the resulting translation were made up gibberish according to our resident gaelgor... Money well spent?

Alcatel wrote: »

Hold a referendum on it, answer your question once and for all.

Can we at least agree the ground rules for the referendum before it is held:

Once off referendum?
Best out of 3?
Best out of 5?

(Mind you I'd be a bit confused about how a referendum would change anything - Article 54 - b - Part iii - subsection a: There shall be no compulsory Irish? Votáil Tá nó Níl! I mean this is really not an issue for the constitution. Changing it would have no affect on compulsory Irish)

Alcatel wrote: »

You can put it to a vote and ask people what they think the national favourite colour ought to be and they can enshrine it in law.

The question simply is, should we spend public money on Irish? At the moment it is fairly compulsory.

Thats not what you post is talking about at all though


And surely it would be as easy to vote for the 'No to spending money on Irish' Party, and let them do it?

T runner wrote: »

So in a choice between English only or both English and Irish? The latter surely would make someone from Irelands life richer.

Don't see how it has made my life "richer"

Alcatel wrote: »

I do agree that you look at the individual. On the other hand, cut Irish and double the time teaching English and how many kids will we see mixing pacific with specific? Yes, there will be plenty in the Bebo generation still at it, but generally you will see an improvement.

That is pure speculation. I've seen kids go through 6 years of Irish-speaking secondary school, and the improvement in their grasp of even the basic structures was negligible. Just because you teach more, doesn't mean the student gets better. A lot of students suck at Irish, the same way that a lot of students would still suck at English, despite double the class-time.

Alcatel wrote: »

Then, in my purely managerial mind, you ask which is more valuable to someone in their lives: Engrish, or Irish? The answer is English. If they want to learn Irish, go and do it by option and with family support. When it comes to spending taxpayer money, it should be spent primarily where it will reap the most reward.

Not everybody's answer is English. I can speak English well, spell correctly, appreciate a well written article, and regularly read novels and short stories. Was I an honours student? No. I did Ordinary level English in the LC. Why? Ironically enough, it was my "managerial mind"! I said to myself, what is the point in studying an hour's English every day in order to get a Higher A1, when I can get a grade of just 40 points less in exchange for almost no study at all? And that's exactly what I did. I'd say that both English and Irish are of equal value in my life.

The point of my anecdote is that it's not "where the funding goes" that reaps the most reward. There is more to life, to a country, heck even to a government than figures. Businesses are run by bean-counters; countries are run by politicians. Fortunately for me (and many others, I'm sure), politicians realise that money and profit, profit, profit is not the be all and end all. They invest in the arts, in culture, in leisure, and in entertainment. Things that differenciate a country from a corporate machine.

It is my experience that people who speak Irish well, generally can speak English well. There's a certain amount of skills-transference gained when learning another language. So what if people want to learn Irish instead of English? It would make no difference whatsoever to the fluency of the nation in English. But do you know what it would do? Create a lot less friction between the Gaelgóirí and English-speakers.

The pro-Irish lot aren't going to go away. The same way that the English crowd are not going to denounce their mother-tongue in favour of some gutteral, "backwater" of a language. So what's the solution? Compromise. I'm sure that, as a business-man, you know this. I've offered a compromise in making it compulsory to choose either Irish or English for the LC. One could take both if so desired, of course. You don't seem to like this solution, however. What do you suggest instead? More to-ing and fro-ing? More tit-for-tat? Or something that both parties can actually be happy to live with?

donegalfella, you're right and I agree with you - the IMF will take one look at all the needless spending on translations etc (note to the Gaelgóirí, that's not all they'll be axing) and laugh. It may have been somewhat defensible when we were awash with cash/credit, but not in today's world.

This is where I differ with most pro-Irish people, in that I don't support the spending on translations/interpreting and what have you. Sure, it creates some jobs (tbh, I'm even considering becoming a translator after reading this thread!), but IMO those jobs would be better placed in areas that provide real community value. There is no community in sitting at a computer, typing, and then patting yourself on the back, telling yourself you're doing a world of good for the Gaeilge movement. I'm going to stop there, because I'd just be repeating myself.


Also, Cliste, fwiw, it's all well and good telling DF that he hasn't "really accepted any kind of compromise", but while we're calling a spade a spade - where have you?