Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

Ardent · 21-10-2009 12:00PM

whatawaster wrote: »

So how is it really different from what’s occurred? (NET spending ~ ZERO)

Why should you care about net spend? It's none of your business.

The only thing you should be concerned about, as a fan, is who the manager brings in to strengthen the team year on year. The fact remains, Benitez has gone through A LOT of players throughout his tenure and yet we have a very ordinary team when you take out Gerrard and Torres.

Mr Alan · 21-10-2009 12:05PM

Ardent wrote: »

Babel - 11M
Kuyt - 11M
Lucas - 5M?
Dossena - 7M
Rieira - 10M?
Insua - 2M?

Kuyt was 9 (what a ****ing bargain that lad was)
Riera was just less than 8
and as has been pointed out Insua was just over 1m (another great buy)

whatawaster · 21-10-2009 12:06PM

Ardent wrote: »

Why should you care about net spend? It's none of your business.

The only thing you should be concerned about, as a fan, is who the manager brings in to strengthen the team year on year. The fact remains, Benitez has gone through A LOT of players throughout his tenure and yet we have a very ordinary team when you take out Gerrard and Torres.

None of my business? WTF are you on about?

You have to look at the whole picture.

Take this season for example. I’ll ask you the same question I’ve asked Headshot, and I’d appreciate an honest answer.

Without going into a blame game or the rights and wrongs of the situations, lets imagine 2 scenarios:

Scenario 1 – Alonso and Arbeloa stay at Liverpool. Benitez doesn’t have the money therefore to buy Johnson or Aquilani and pretty much no money is spent.

Scenario 2 – Alonso and Arbeloa leave, bringing in around 34 million. That money is almost entirely spent on 2 replacements – Aquilani and Johnson.

Question: - can you not see that the same restrictions in scenario 1 (no money to spend) are, in substance, still present in scenario 2?

I’ve used this analogy before. If I sell my car for 20K and buy a new one for 20K, I’m not going to go around saying I spent 20K on cars. Similarly if I’m a business my accounts will not show a 20K expenditure on cars, but rather a ZERO expenditure on cars.

Can you not see where I’m coming from?

Ardent · 21-10-2009 12:09PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Kuyt was 9 (what a ****ing bargain that lad was)
Riera was just less than 8
and as has been pointed out Insua was just over 1m (another great buy)

You're hilarious, you are. Always downward revising the cost of our players. Kuyt was over 10M minimum, according to most sources.

How much did the Keane fiasco cost us again, according to you?

Boggles · 21-10-2009 12:19PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Riera was just less than 8

Not proving value for money, one trick pony really.

Mr Alan wrote: »

and as has been pointed out Insua was just over 1m (another great buy)

Insua has a severe lack of pace, good little player with potential, lack of pace is something you can't fix though.

Xavi6 · 21-10-2009 12:21PM

Boggles wrote: »

Insua has a severe lack of pace, good little player with potential, lack of pace is something you can't fix though.

At City we call it 'Javier Garrido Syndrome'

Mr Alan · 21-10-2009 12:26PM

Ardent wrote: »

You're hilarious, you are. Always downward revising the cost of our players. Kuyt was over 10M minimum, according to most sources.

How much did the Keane fiasco cost us again, according to you?

where are these sources that say minimum 10m?

re:Keane, he ended up costing us about 3m i think, could be less over the next season or two.

Boggles wrote: »

Not proving value for money, one trick pony really.

Insua has a severe lack of pace, good little player with potential, lack of pace is something you can't fix though.

Riera is a decent squad player. for 8m i didn't expected messi. i expect.....a decent squad player.

must say, never noticed Insuas lack of pace, i'll keep an eye out though in future. either for 1.5m, great buy.

Xavi6 · 21-10-2009 12:28PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Riera is a decent squad player. for 8m i didn't expected messi. i expect.....a decent squad player.

We turned him down for half that, and even though I wanted him at the time, I can see now how the wool was being pulled over our eyes.

Boggles · 21-10-2009 12:32PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

Riera is a decent squad player. for 8m i didn't expected messi. i expect.....a decent squad player.

He is muck Al, 1 or 2 good games doesn't make you decent.

For half that you could have gone for a Matty Taylor who actually would be a decent squad player.

whatawaster · 21-10-2009 12:34PM

Xavi6 wrote: »

We turned him down for half that, and even though I wanted him at the time, I can see now how the wool was being pulled over our eyes.

What do you mean the wool was being pulled over your eyes?
You either thought he was good or you didn't. Was he just pretending to be good?

IMO he's an excellent squad option. At 8m i'm happy with him as a second choice LW. He's not a regular in the Spain squad for nothing.
He has outstanding technique and a great shot. He's too inconsistent for my liking, but let's give him his second season and let's let him get fully fit before we judge

whatawaster · 21-10-2009 12:35PM

Boggles wrote: »

He is muck Al, 1 or 2 good games doesn't make you decent.

For half that you could have gone for a Matty Taylor who actually would be a decent squad player.

He's far from muck.
For about half his games last season he played very well, hardly one or two games. not consistent enough imo, but far from muck.
He hasn't had a chance to get going this season

Mr Alan · 21-10-2009 12:37PM

xavi, only at the end of last season you were waxing lyrical how you always knew Riera was a quality player. ffs how easily do you change your tune man he has played about 4 games since that time.

The Muppet · 21-10-2009 12:42PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

re:Keane, he ended up costing us about 3m i think, could be less over the next season or two.

Have you a source for teh £3 million figure? according to teh bbc it's near 9 million.

Keane has signed a four-year contract at Spurs with the fee starting at £12m and rising with add-ons.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/t/tottenham_hotspur/7861523.stm

whatawaster · 21-10-2009 12:49PM

The Muppet wrote: »

Have you a source for teh £3 million figure? according to teh bbc it's near 9 million.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/t/tottenham_hotspur/7861523.stm

Apparently it's 12 million rising almost certainly to 16 based on add-ons for apps etc.
There are further add-ons for winning trophies etc, but, of course, it's Spurs.

We're are all only guessing though.

Mr Alan · 21-10-2009 12:51PM

muppet; the add ons mainly heavily based on Spurs staying in the PL last season.

and you're working off the assumption that the original fee for Keane has no incentives based in it. which it clearly did (18m or 19m without incentives iirc).

Tony Barrret at the Liverpool Echo (now the times) is widely regarded as the most reliable sources re: Liverpool tranfers. he says the move back to was for 16m.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2009/02/02/robbie-keane-completes-move-to-tottenham-liverpool-fc-latest-100252-22837715/

Bandit12 · 21-10-2009 12:53PM

Ardent wrote: »

Well, let's look at it then. These are some of the the flops he has bought since the Americans took over:

Babel - 11M
Kuyt - 11M
Lucas - 5M?
Dossena - 7M
Rieira - 10M?
Insua - 2M?

That's a lot of rubbish for good money right there, all of whom are playing regularly.

(And don't come out with this crap that Kuyt isn't a flop. I've said it many times in the past and I'll say it again - Liverpool will never win the Premiership while that guy's an ever-present in the team.)

And then there's the Keane fiasco which was costly and frankly embarrassing to all concerned.

Benitez's good purchases include:
Torres - 22M
Reina - 7M?
Agger - 5M?
Mascherano - 19M
Johnson - 18M

How can anyone say he has been hampered in the transfer market? It's a ridiculous assertion.

Oh yeah, forgot - "net spend". That old chestnut.

How is "net spend" an old chestnut? Rafa has had to sell players to finance the purchase of other players.

The Muppet · 21-10-2009 04:39PM

whatawaster wrote: »

Apparently it's 12 million rising almost certainly to 16 based on add-ons for apps etc.
There are further add-ons for winning trophies etc, but, of course, it's Spurs.

We're are all only guessing though.

You can't really use clauses because we usually are not aware of what the clauses are and they may never be met. For instance there is rumour linking Keane with a january move to Celtic, If this happens the clauses will amount to very little if any money for Liverpool.

Mr Alan wrote: »

muppet; the add ons mainly heavily based on Spurs staying in the PL last season.

and you're working off the assumption that the original fee for Keane has no incentives based in it. which it clearly did (18m or 19m without incentives iirc).

Tony Barrret at the Liverpool Echo (now the times) is widely regarded as the most reliable sources re: Liverpool tranfers. he says the move back to was for 16m.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2009/02/02/robbie-keane-completes-move-to-tottenham-liverpool-fc-latest-100252-22837715/

The Liverpool Echo printed a story listing Torres fee as £26.5 million at the time of his transfer. This figure is vigourously rejected by most livepool fans including yourself Al. Either it's a reliable source or it's not we can't pick and choose.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2007/06/29/reds-on-brink-of-torres-signing-100252-19378735/

Personally I would tend to believe the BBC over any other source because if they don't have the info the will say it's undisclosed.

The article you linked to is pretty vague " a 16 million deal" is open to a lot of different intrepretations. for instance is his signing on fee, clauses and or wages included in that fee? The article doesn't give us the answer.

slingerz · 21-10-2009 04:43PM

Benitez has spent enough money to be on a level footing with the best. The problem is he didnt spend it wisely enough.

Xavi6 · 21-10-2009 04:48PM

whatawaster wrote: »

What do you mean the wool was being pulled over your eyes?
You either thought he was good or you didn't. Was he just pretending to be good?

I thought he was good at the time (he was deservedly named MOM in a game I was at in 2006) but he has failed to progress as a player. At 27 he is well into his peak, if not past it, as a winger. The value simply isn't there.

The reasons given for us not signing him are still the reasons why he is struggling now.

Mr Alan wrote: »

xavi, only at the end of last season you were waxing lyrical how you always knew Riera was a quality player. ffs how easily do you change your tune man he has played about 4 games since that time.

I said he was a good player when he played for us, i.e. as a 23 year old on loan in the Premiership. He has done next to nothing since joining Liverpool and is a case of a player not fulfilling potential.

And I always said he wasn't worth the amount paid btw.

Mr Alan · 21-10-2009 07:59PM

The Muppet wrote: »

You can't really use clauses because we usually are not aware of what the clauses are and they may never be met. For instance there is rumour linking Keane with a january move to Celtic, If this happens the clauses will amount to very little if any money for Liverpool.

The Liverpool Echo printed a story listing Torres fee as £26.5 million at the time of his transfer. This figure is vigourously rejected by most livepool fans including yourself Al. Either it's a reliable source or it's not we can't pick and choose.

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-fc/liverpool-fc-news/2007/06/29/reds-on-brink-of-torres-signing-100252-19378735/

read your own story Muppet.

it was speculation before any deal was done.

every mention of him by the echo after the deal was done was 20m.

Personally I would tend to believe the BBC over any other source because if they don't have the info the will say it's undisclosed.

The article you linked to is pretty vague " a 16 million deal" is open to a lot of different intrepretations. for instance is his signing on fee, clauses and or wages included in that fee? The article doesn't give us the answer.

ok, well here is the bbc saying 12m rising with add ons, and mentioning that the 20.3m figure with Liverpool was inclusive of add ons that were not paid.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/t/tottenham_hotspur/7861523.stm

and here is the bbc saying torres was 20m too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/6239286.stm

Mr Alan · 21-10-2009 08:52PM

you not gonna respond to the above muppet?

or are you just gonna ignore it & then claim torres was 26.5m and keane was over 20 and sold for 12 the next time it suits you?

or do you prefer not to believe the bbc in this instance despite your earlier assertion

The Muppet · 21-10-2009 10:14PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

you not gonna respond to the above muppet?

or are you just gonna ignore it & then claim torres was 26.5m and keane was over 20 and sold for 12 the next time it suits you?

or do you prefer not to believe the bbc in this instance despite your earlier assertion

Mr Alan wrote: »

read your own story Muppet.

it was speculation before any deal was done.

every mention of him by the echo after the deal was done was 20m.

ok, well here is the bbc saying 12m rising with add ons, and mentioning that the 20.3m figure with Liverpool was inclusive of add ons that were not paid.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/t/tottenham_hotspur/7861523.stm

and here is the bbc saying torres was 20m too.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/europe/6239286.stm

Take it easy man I had to go out, just back now.

I didn't say he was sold for 12 an bought for 21, I said it could be triple the £3 million you quoted which it could, If I had to give a figure I would guess that around £5 Milllion would be a more realistic figure for the sum liverpool lost on the deal.

The Echo article re Torres was from around the time he signed, I quote "the reds have agreed a deal in principle" negotiations had taking place and the article was based on that..

I have also read an interview with rafa giving the figure for Torres at £22 million and he mentioned Garcia going the other way as being part of the negotiations. I haven't looked for a link to this interview I just remember reading it at one stage. There are lost of article giving different values for Torres, I believe he had a £27 million release clause so I think it's probable he would have went for around that figure given the teams that were interested in signing him.

SlickRic · 22-10-2009 01:12AM

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Wrong thread fail

awesome, thanks.

you can delete your post now

damn similar thread titles.

~Rebel~ · 22-10-2009 01:36AM

SlickRic wrote: »

awesome, thanks.

you can delete your post now

damn similar thread titles.

indeed, cant move for all the liverpool threads at the moment!

Mr Alan · 22-10-2009 01:18PM

The Muppet wrote: »

The Echo article re Torres was from around the time he signed, I quote "the reds have agreed a deal in principle" negotiations had taking place and the article was based on that...

the article was from before the deal, speculating what might happen, when the deal was done, they had the correct figure.

I believe he had a £27 million release clause so I think it's probable he would have went for around that figure given the teams that were interested in signing him.

so despite the fact that the majority of the respected media incl the bbc which last night you said you think is the most reliable say the deal was 20m, you are gonna choose to believe it was 27m?! very strange tbh.

The Muppet · 22-10-2009 03:22PM

Mr Alan wrote: »

the article was from before the deal, speculating what might happen, when the deal was done, they had the correct figure.

so despite the fact that the majority of the respected media incl the bbc which last night you said you think is the most reliable say the deal was 20m, you are gonna choose to believe it was 27m?! very strange tbh.

The Reds have agreed a deal in principle with Atletico Madrid and hope to convince him to accept personal terms next week

See the highlighted bit.

Many mainstreams go with a higher figure than £20 Million. I said I tend to believe the BBC over other sources and thats true. In this instance I have read an interview with Rafa mentioning a higher fee and confusing things by also mentioning the Garcia deal as part of the negotiations.

From what I have read I think it's highly likely that Liverpool paid £20 million plus Garcia (who cost them £6 million odd) for Torres. The £20 million quoted is the net spend

I found the interview, Rafa clearly states Torres was £20 million Plus Garcia who cost liverpool £6 million, hence the £26 million price tag.

How much did he cost?

Whenever we talk about the deal for Torres with Atlético Madrid we always include Luis GarcÍa in the price. The total cost of the operation is around £20 million.

http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/archivedirs/news/2008/mar/31/N159367080331-1327.htm

Mr Alan · 22-10-2009 11:53PM

from the same article in the echo Muppet.

The Reds are believed to have agreed a fee just short of the £27m get-out clause stipulated in Torres’ contract.

again, they were just speculating before the deal was finalised.

when the deal was finalised, the correct amount was reported.

the same amount that was reported on BBC. the site you say is most reliable for transfers.

and actually wat Rafa is saying in that article there is that the total cost which includes Garcia (4m) was £20m! even bigger bargain!

interesting to read in Tompkins latest article today that the Liverpool team is the 5th most expensive squad in the league with the 5th highest wage bill.

L'prof · 23-10-2009 12:19AM

Mr Alan wrote: »

interesting to read in Tompkins latest article today that the Liverpool team is the 5th most expensive squad in the league with the 5th highest wage bill.

They've spent enough to warrant more success!

Mr Alan · 23-10-2009 12:35AM

they haven't, that was kinda my point.

kryogen · 23-10-2009 12:40AM

Mr Alan wrote: »

they haven't, that was kinda my point.

Got a link to that article? just wanna have a read of it, would be interesting

actually, only if he has facts and figures, not conjecture or speculation!

Liverpool squad/keeper/spending comparison thread [read post #161]

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