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Climate Change or Global Warming as it used to be called.

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Comments

  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 7,943 Mod ✭✭✭✭Yakult


    I think we are just speeding up the process of climate change, either way it was gonna happen, just maybe not this fast.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭bleg


    OP, you also might like to learn the difference between weather and climate.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,984 ✭✭✭Venom


    ScumLord wrote: »
    An inconvenient truth is a load of arse and has been shown to be arse by just about every scientist worth their salts. Big Al has been called out on it many times, his book has been banned from schools in the UK because it's bunkum and he lies about that fact whenever he's asked about it. And do you really trust an American politician to give you a straight honest answer?

    Not to mention the fact his own home (huge ass mansion) uses about 5 times the power of similar homes in the same area but its ok as he buys "carbon credits" from one of those Eco feel good about yourself by writing a check companies he happens to own.

    Hybrid cars like the prius have a bigger carbon footprint than a range rover due to how the batteries are made. It take more power to recycle plastic goods that it does to make new ones from scratch. The Green movement is just another multi-billion dollar/pound/euro money making caper.


  • Posts: 31,828 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Human activity does have an effect on the local climate, that is clear.
    for example when large areas of land are ploughed before sowing the crops, the (now) dark land absorbs more heat from the sun raising the temperature a degree or so.

    Urban areas have a similar effect all year round. these are examples of man made (local) climate change.

    Airlines flying at high altitude are causing the atmosphere to "fog up" slightly reducing the amount of sunlight to reach the earth's surface, it has been claimed that this has already affected the weather causing monsoons to fall in slightly different places to where it historicaly fell, this is an example that could be man made.
    The day after 9/11 when aircraft were banned from the skys of the USA solar radiation reaching the ground reverted to their pre 1950 levels for a couple of days.


    I believe that the biggest driver of the climate is the sun!

    One thing to consider is what effect did WWII have on the climate, military action caused huge amounts of CO2 to be released when cities were bombed etc, farming was disrupted in many areas of Europe.

    Look at the first Gulf war, half of the oil wells in Kuwait were torched, just before a period of warmer temperatures AND increased sunspot activity, easy to link it to the fires while ignoring the effect of the sun.

    Solar activity has dropped in recent years and so have global temperatures.

    I'm inclined to believe that man's activities have a small part to play in the local climate, but changes in solar activity contributes 99.5% of the global climate change.

    The link in post #2 has charts that correlate the sun's activity with global temperatures quite well.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,581 ✭✭✭✭TheZohanS


    Human activity does have an effect on the local climate, that is clear......

    ....The link in post #2 has charts that correlate the sun's activity with global temperatures quite well.


    Impressive...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,017 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    bleg wrote: »
    Your natural inkling would lead you to believe that the world is so vast and how could humans have such a big effect

    The fact that some people have difficulty getting their heads around such a possibility is a bit strange given that for the past 50~60 years humans have had the capability to kill most of the higher forms of life on earth over a relatively short period (and have come scarily close to it on a couple of occasions) .


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,390 ✭✭✭IM0


    mp3guy wrote: »
    And come on, it's not like its a religion, it's scientific fact.

    two words which dont belong in the same sentance ;)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 37,214 ✭✭✭✭Dudess




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,509 ✭✭✭✭randylonghorn


    Then suddenly you have a rainy summer and climate change is upon us.
    Have a look at Arctic ice-melt patterns though, Doc.

    My own view is that part of the change is natural, but accelerated by a combination of factors over a longer period than is normally cited ... that it's coming to a head now, in other words.

    The population on this planet has grown immensely; apart from just the increase in the number of humans, this has led to both a growth in herd animal numbers for food and a huge clearance of the earth's forests for crops; we've been pumping ever-increasing pollution into the atmosphere, especially since the industrial revolution, and the sheer variety of pollutants we've added to the atmosphere has risen sharply in the last few decades; as someone pointed out, a series of wars especially in the last century have added an extra layer to that pollution; and so on ...

    db, I definitely agree that solar activity patterns are a factor ... 99.5% though? I'm skeptical.

    To my mind, it would be stretching coincidence to the limits to suggest that human activity isn't at least a contributing factor to the changes which are taking place.

    The main reason, I suspect, why that isn't a popular view is because accepting it demands that we change how we do things ... and people generally don't like change, especially if it's change which may involve giving up some of their luxuries.


  • Posts: 31,828 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Here is a lecture by a climate sceptic..


    There is another video (that I can't find right now) that shows a good chart with recent global drops.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,160 ✭✭✭✭banshee_bones


    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article5682887.ece

    Did you know the exhalations of breath and other gaseous emissions by the nearly seven billion people on Earth, their pets and livestock are responsible for 23% of all greenhouse gas emissions? If you add on the fossil fuel burnt in the total activity of growing, gathering, selling and serving food, all this adds up to about half of all carbon dioxide emissions. Think of farm machinery, the transport of food from the farms and the transport of fertiliser, pesticides and the fuel used in their manufacture; the road building and maintenance; the supermarket operations and the packaging industry; to say nothing of the energy used in cooking, refrigerating and serving food. Like it or not, we are the problem.


    http://www.ipcc.ch/
    The Intergovernmental Panel of Climate Change is the leading body for the assessment of climate change, established by the United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP) and the World Meteorological Organization (WMO) to provide the world with a clear scientific view on the current state of climate change and its potential environmental and socio-economic consequences.

    The IPCC is a scientific body. It reviews and assesses the most recent scientific, technical and socio-economic information produced worldwide relevant to the understanding of climate change. It does not conduct any research nor does it monitor climate related data or parameters. Thousands of scientists from all over the world contribute to the work of the IPCC on a voluntary basis. Review is an essential part of the IPCC process, to ensure an objective and complete assessment of current information. Differing viewpoints existing within the scientific community are reflected in the IPCC reports.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Bob_Harris wrote: »
    Mankind, CO2, is not the source of global warming climate change.

    The planet is so vast, the climate so complex, the effects on climate so numerous, that to pinpoint CO2 as the lone gunman is ridiculous.

    There is no great war of our times

    wrong tbh. Cold war, followed by the 'global war on terror'. You're welcome.


  • Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 35,948 Mod ✭✭✭✭dr.bollocko


    I think you'll find the great war of our times is mafia wars.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭bleg


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sciencetoday/2009/0319/1224243062528.html

    UNDER THE MICROSCOPE: DAVID BELLAMY, well-known presenter of TV nature programmes over the years, was interviewed about climate change on The Late Late Show on January 23rd. Bellamy believes that current global warming and climate change is a natural phenomenon and not significantly affected by man-made emissions of greenhouse gases (anthropogenic climate change).

    He made his case vigorously and was interviewed gently by Pat Kenny. The only reaction I saw to Bellamy’s performance came from the Greens, and this mostly confined itself to protesting that Bellamy was interviewed alone and unchallenged by an expert representing the majority side of the argument.

    Little attempt was made to counter the scientific claims made by Bellamy. I believe that these claims should be answered on scientific grounds and that we should not simply rely on dogmatic assertion against them. In my opinion Bellamy’s arguments against anthropogenic climate change, although drawing on scientific evidence, are also heavily informed by intuition. Although I am not an expert in this area, I will attempt to refute Bellamy’s main claims in this article.

    Bellamy’s principal claims were, (a) carbon dioxide doesn’t drive current global temperature rise because historical records show that global temperature increase is followed, not preceded, by a rise in carbon dioxide levels; (b) temperature patterns on earth are driven by the sun’s activity. He also claimed that he has been shunned by the BBC since he criticised wind farms on the Blue Peter programme in 1996.

    As I described in a recent article, over the long term scientists have detected cycles of ice ages separated by brief warm periods called interglacials. This pattern is triggered by Milankovitch cycles, regular changes in the earth’s orbit and axis of inclination that change the incoming pattern of sunlight received on earth. When the southern hemisphere starts to receive more springtime sunshine, temperatures rise there, melting Antarctic sea ice and glaciers. As the temperature rises, atmospheric carbon dioxide also rises but lags behind temperature rise by 800 to 1,000 years. The carbon dioxide is emitted from the oceans as they warm – carbon dioxide is less soluble in warmer than in colder water.

    When carbon dioxide is emitted from the oceans into the atmosphere, it enhances the greenhouse effect and warms the earth. It mixes through the earth’s atmosphere and amplifies and spreads to northern latitudes the warming that began in the southern hemisphere. The temperature forcing effect of the Milankovitch cycle alone is relatively weak, but amplified by carbon dioxide release, the overall warming effect becomes strong enough to bring the entire earth out of an Ice Age.

    It is well understood scientifically how carbon dioxide warms the world. Human activities have significantly increased carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere since the industrial revolution. Science clearly tells us that this must contribute to world warming. To claim, based on the historical record, that carbon dioxide cannot drive world temperature change is like claiming that guns cannot increase murder rates now because historical studies show that knives were usually the cause.

    Climate change sceptics frequently claim that the sun is the sole cause of global warming. They point out that the sun was more active over the past 60 years than during the previous 1,150 years and there has been a steady increase in sunspot numbers over the past few hundred years. All scientists, of course, agree that the sun strongly influences earth’s climate and many studies have examined the connection between global temperature and solar variations. These studies generally conclude that the correlation between the sun and climate ended in the 1970s, whereas global warming continued. Even the study most cited by the sceptics (IG Usoskin and others, Proceedings 13th Cool Stars Workshop , Hamburg, July, 2004) , concludes that global warming over the past 30 years cannot be attributed to the sun. The great majority of scientists attribute this warming to a rise in atmospheric carbon dioxide.

    It would be fantastic if mainstream science had overlooked the effect of the sun on global warming. The sun is the earth’s only external source of energy. Without the sun the earth would be a frozen, dark wasteland. The effect of the sun and variations in its output on earth’s climate has been extensively investigated by mainstream science.

    Finally, David Bellamy claims that the BBC no longer commissions him to make TV programmes because of his sceptical views on anthropogenic global warming. This is, of course, entirely a matter between himself and the BBC. However, some commentators point to the apparently poor correlation between his parting of the ways with the BBC and his public pronouncements on anthropogenic climate change – he last worked for the BBC in 1994, but his public sceptical utterances on global warming don’t seem to have begun until 2004.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭bleg


    I'd be inclined to believe the findings of the scientific community on this. I trust the scientific method has been properly applied and the conclusions drawn from it are correct (i.e. that human activities are causing climate change).

    I fail to see how people can ignore the scientific community's findings on one matter but completely trust them on another (such as healthcare). Honestly people there is not some scientific elite out there that are hiding facts and trying to trick you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 848 ✭✭✭ravima


    we've had bad summers, no sun lots of rain since the Greens came to power.

    If we stop using Oil, Electricity, coal and turf and if we all live in houses, eating whatever we grow ourselves and all become unemployed due to not using fuel, will the world be a better place?

    KYOTO will do nothing at all for us here in Ireland, except reduce our standard of living further as the main burners of fossil fuels, US, China, India can keep pumping the stuff into the atmosphere.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭bleg


    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/sciencetoday/2009/0820/1224252939867.html


    I quite like Reville's articles on climate change I must say.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    George Monbiot on the Sun Spot myth:

    The film’s main contention is that the current increase in global temperatures is caused not by rising greenhouse gases, but by changes in the activity of the Sun. It is built around the discovery in 1991 by the Danish atmospheric physicist Dr Eigil Friis-Christensen that recent temperature variations on earth are in “strikingly good agreement” with the length of the cycle of sunspots - the shorter they are, the higher the temperature(2).

    Unfortunately, he found nothing of the kind. A paper published in the journal Eos in 2004 reveals that the “agreement” was the result of “incorrect handling of the physical data”(3). The real data for recent years show the opposite: that temperatures have continued to rise as the length of the sunspot cycle has increased. When this error was exposed, Friis-Christensen and his co-author published a new paper, purporting to produce similar results(4). But this too turned out to be an artefact of mistakes they had made - in this case in their arithmetic(5).

    Source (with footnotes)

    A newspaper correspondence between Monbiot and David Bellamy.

    And all you deniers know, don't you, that most climate scepticism is generated by large PR companies funded in large part by oil and coal lobbies?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,619 ✭✭✭Bob_Harris


    wrong tbh. Cold war, followed by the 'global war on terror'. You're welcome.

    They are hardly "great" wars, such as WWI and WWII.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,619 ✭✭✭Bob_Harris


    And all you deniers know, don't you, that most climate scepticism is generated by large PR companies funded in large part by oil and coal lobbies?

    The conspiracy forum's that way -->


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,160 ✭✭✭✭banshee_bones


    From the Reville Times article:

    In my opinion, the IPCC should select a number of spokespeople who can communicate in a personable and trustworthy manner to the public. It should stick at this communication, week in, week out. It should target parents and it should take on the climate sceptics. If IPCC truly believes in its message, nothing less will do.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Bob_Harris wrote: »
    They are hardly "great" wars, such as WWI and WWII.


    Well the only 'Great War' was WWI, so either way its about perception. You said there were no 'great wars' any more, but I've just shown you two. You're welcome.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,619 ✭✭✭Bob_Harris


    Well the only 'Great War' was WWI, so either way its about perception. You said there were no 'great wars' any more, but I've just shown you two. You're welcome.

    I'm welcome, thank you.

    But again, no, they are not great wars.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    But neither were your examples.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,619 ✭✭✭Bob_Harris


    But neither were your examples.

    Right, so my examples and your examples are not great wars. That's fine.

    Therefore my statement of "there are no great wars of our time" is correct.

    You're welcome.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,847 ✭✭✭bleg


    I don't get your point.

    There is a concerted effort amongst scientists to push some sort of illusion of climate change in order to distract people in the same way WWI and II did. Is that it?

    Why would we bother coming up with something like that? Wouldn't we be better off fighting disease?

    I stress again that there is no scientific elite out there that are using cloak and dagger methods to hide the truth. The people working on climate change are ordinary, everyday people just like you and me. The same is true of any scientific field.


  • Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 5,620 ✭✭✭El_Dangeroso


    The scientific 'consensus' that people refer to is actually not that solid.

    We have correlative data and nothing else. Statistics 101: Correlation does not prove causation.

    Scientists work from funding grant to funding grant, if you go against the 'consensus' then you are less likely to get funding, so it's in the interest of their career to agree with the mainstream and secure funding.

    This is now starting to change.

    Here is a NASA scientist who argues that clean air regulation is contributing to artic melting:

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04/09/arctic_aerosols_goddard_institute/

    My major issue with this is that the research efforts going into anthropogenic global warming could be used to tackle the REAL issues that our world faces. Namely the massive overpopulation problem. This is a measurable threat to world security as there are less and less resources to go around and it doesn't get in the same league of press as AGW.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 16,165 ✭✭✭✭brianthebard


    Bob_Harris wrote: »
    Right, so my examples and your examples are not great wars. That's fine.

    Therefore my statement of "there are no great wars of our time" is correct.

    You're welcome.

    Why should I believe your point on climate change if you can't get simple facts on wars correct?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,803 ✭✭✭El Siglo


    We're changing the climate, the correlation is extremely strong so it is, proving causation will decades but simply looking at the graphs between GDP, CO2 & Fossil Fuel Use, there is an inherent link. Also, we're producing more Carbon12, this is an isotope of regular Carbon (atoms are divided into isotopes depending on their neutrons and protons etc...). The data from the post war A-Bomb tests have shown that the level of Carbon14 (this is the final stage of Carbon, last thing carbon becomes, i.e. really old carbon) is being diluted with new Carbon (Carbon12) which is only produced when fossil fuels are used (i.e. fossil fuels are geologic stores of Carbon), thus more of this Carbon produced is directly linked to fossil fuel combustion. Again I would recommend reading the IPCC reports on this. So, what I'm saying is the level of Carbon is increasing, but not the level of natural Carbon (i.e. depleted Carbon like Carbon14) no the level of Carbon12 is increasing and this is directly related to fossil fuel combustion as that is the only way that this carbon is stored. So in fact we're not just getting an increase in Carbon, but an increase in the wrong kind of Carbon. I could recommend readings for ye but I couldn't be arsed. In any case I wouldn't call it climate change anymore, I would call it environmental change and anthropogenic activities are contributing to it, it's that simple.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,619 ✭✭✭Bob_Harris


    Why should I believe your point on climate change if you can't get simple facts on wars correct?

    As you said it's a matter of perception on what you would regard a "great war". I personally regard a "great war" as a world wide war which involves many countries, has popular support (masses of people volunteering), and has clear definitions of who is right and who is wrong.

    You pointed towards the cold war which isn't "of our time" and not exactly a conventional war,

    And the war on terror, which would not have popular support, the definitions of right and wrong are very much blurred, and is not a war if only one side has an actual army.

    So again, there are no great wars of our time. Also I never asked you to to "believe" my point on climate change.


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