Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread [mod warning #11145, #32140 (see OP)]

flahavaj · 16-10-2009 11:44AM

Maybe I was slightly harsh on MacManaman tbf, he just always struck me as guy who could have been even better if he dedicated himself more.

Karmafaerie · 16-10-2009 11:46AM

flahavaj wrote: »

Don't get me wrong Mr Alan, I'd go so far as to say the young Fowler was up there with any goalscorer I've ever seen. But by age 26 he was o the way to leeds and the start of a staedy decline into anonimity. Look at Giggs, still going strong in his late 30's and then look at Folwer, finished ten years before that.

Its sad more than anything how he wasted his potential. He certainly destroyed United on several occasions.

Fink Goddie wrote: »

26 was very young to become a has been though when you think of players like Teddy Sheringham.

Getting injured doesn't mean that you haven't fullfilled your potential.
It means you were unlucky.

SlickRic · 16-10-2009 11:49AM

flahavaj wrote: »

Fowler should have been up there with the all time great goalscorers, he was that good. Instead he was a bloated has-been by 26.

i can't argue that he should have even more of a legacy than he does have. but as Al says, he's still the 4th greatest goalscorer in PL history. he still realised a hell of a lot of his potential.

he should have had more England caps, but imo that was down to a combination of bad timing (Shearer), and being looked over by successive England managers for reasons I still don't know. Ferdinand and Sheringham had deserving spots, but there was definitely a time when Fowler could and should have been in the pecking order ahead of at least Ferdinand.

flahavaj wrote: »

Macmanaman certainly achieved a lot once he left Liverpool, but again, he should have won far more England caps and should have been done far more for the unreal talent he was born with. Like Fowler, could have been one of the greats but always lacked that drive and ambition that the like of Scholes and Giggs have that separates the men from the boys....

I can't argue that he has achieved what Scholes or Giggs has. but, in fairness, we can't measure everyone by their standards, especially in terms of longevity.

He was injured a hell of a lot for one.

Once fit, he was a regular for England, and was arguably an intergral part of their Euro 96 run, which should have ended in a trophy.

The main problem for both Macca and Fowler was that they were in a team that didn't win much at Liverpool. That does not mean they did not fulfil their potential as players though. Macca did it all at Real.

i do take your point though; there are areas in their careers which they may look back at with a tinge of regret. but as players, they both turned into fantastic ones.

flahavaj wrote: »

As for Owen, well in fairness Liverpool fans have done a far better job of describing how much of a has been he is in the past few months than I ever could, so i don't really need to argue his case...

i for one will never take anything away from the player he was at Liverpool. He was phenomenal.

injuries have slowly destroyed him. but the fact he could still plausibly become England's greatest goalscorer shows how much he has achieved.

again he doesn't have a bulging trophy cabinet, but that doesn't completely take away from what he became as a player.

Mitch Connor · 16-10-2009 11:51AM

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Getting injured doesn't mean that you haven't fullfilled your potential.

yeah it does.

Karmafaerie wrote: »

It means you were unlucky.

It means it he may have been unlucky in not full fulling his potential, but he still didn't become the player he could have been.

flahavaj · 16-10-2009 11:55AM

Of course being injured is a reason for not achieving your potential. Its probably the main reason it happens. It mightn't necessarily be the players fault, but it doesn't mean it can't be said.

Owen Hargreaves may never achieve his potential because of his dodgy knees. Sad for him, but still a fact.

flahavaj · 16-10-2009 12:01PM

Also SlickRic is the soundest man on this thread, never takes anything less than pro-Liverpool as a personal slight, always gives reasonable arguments and always admits when someones else has a good point. And his usernasme is awesome. WOOO!

Fink Goddie · 16-10-2009 12:04PM

flahavaj wrote: »

Also SlickRic is the soundest man on this thread, never takes anything less than pro-Liverpool as a personal slight, always gives reasonable arguments and always admits when someones else has a good point. And his usernasme is awesome. WOOO!

GET A ROOM!

SlickRic · 16-10-2009 12:06PM

flahavaj wrote: »

Also SlickRic is the soundest man on this thread, never takes anything less than pro-Liverpool as a personal slight, always gives reasonable arguments and always admits when someones else has a good point. And his usernasme is awesome. WOOO!

maybe i should live up to the name more; dirtiest player in the game and all that.

one week i'll just go hell for leather and attack any utd poster in here.

Karmafaerie · 16-10-2009 12:11PM

Injury is not you not fullfilling your potential.
It's life not allowing you to.

When we have people here brining up the "Spice Boys" then a large line has to be drawn between that and injuries.

Back when Fowler wsa supposedly raising hell, he was the most leathal (or second to Shearer depending on which side of the fence you're on) striker in the country.
It was only after his injuries that he declined.

It's not as if he injured himself in a nightclub.
He was very unlucky and his career was seriously derailed.

To call it him not living up to his potential is insulting however.

Fink Goddie · 16-10-2009 12:14PM

Karmafaerie wrote: »

Injury is not you not fullfilling your potential.
It's life not allowing you to.

.

So basically you're saying he didnt fulfill his potential!

flahavaj · 16-10-2009 12:18PM

Arguing pedantics karma tbh. Same goes for any other player in the same situation from any other team, not just Robbie: he failed to live up to his early potential. It happens, for many reasons, its not an insult, its a fact.

Its not as if anyone said he p*ssed it all away.

Fink Goddie · 16-10-2009 12:19PM

flahavaj wrote: »

Its not as if anyone said he p*ssed it all away.

Or he snorted it all away :pac:

The Muppet · 16-10-2009 12:21PM

I never rated Mcmanaman maybe it was that long leggy stride of his, he always looke like he wasn't busting a gut. Fowler was one of the best Strikers the premiership has ever seen, Shearer is only one of that era that I'd rate higher.

Cyrus · 16-10-2009 12:26PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

yeah it does.
It means it he may have been unlucky in not full fulling his potential, but he still didn't become the player he could have been.

didnt become the player he could have been, maybe in these days of overhyped players like rooney people forgot that a real wonderkid like fowler scored 116 goals in 188 games in his first 4 seasons.

rooney by comparison scored in 53 goals in 168 games in his first 4 seasons, despite being hyped as the english answer to pele and being bought by the richest club in the land at the time for a kings ransom .

so this talk about fowler not realising his potential is nonsense, he did, just not for as long as anyone hoped, we wont see he like for a long time again,

the kid was pure gold

Fink Goddie · 16-10-2009 12:30PM

Cyrus wrote: »

the kid was pure gold

The adult however, was not! he was pure bronze!

flahavaj · 16-10-2009 12:31PM

So a four career is normal? They guy was on the decline from the age of 26, commenting on that isn't an insult to him, nor does it take away from his achievements during those 4 years, but it IS unusual enough as to tarnish his legacy at least to a certan extent. People are just repeating the praise that others including myself have already heaped on him, instead of acknowledging the facts.

SlickRic · 16-10-2009 12:32PM

Cyrus wrote: »

so this talk about fowler not realising his potential is nonsense, he did, just not for as long as anyone hoped, we wont see he like for a long time again,

nobody's arguing that he wasn't incredible.

the argument is that longevity could be deemed a key criteria for realising potential.

i think he did realise the vast majority of it and have a fantastic career, but other fans, whether sincere or not, believe the fact that he didn't do it over the course of his whole career, that he could have been so much more than the already incredibly recognised striker that he is.

and i don't think it can be argued, that for whatever reason, he had the ability to maybe be a bit more. whether it be because of injuries, fitness, bad timing in terms of the national team, or whatever. it shows how phenomenal he was that we still talk about him as highly as we do.

he's still my favourite liverpool player ever; easily.

flahavaj · 16-10-2009 12:40PM

Exactly SlickRic.

Does anybody think that Maradona, for example realised his FULL potential? He was absolutely sensational, possibly better than anyone ever for a certain period, but he could have done so for longer, for a variety of reasons and had an even greater legacy if he had.

Simples.

NabyLadistheman · 16-10-2009 12:41PM

McManaman was a class footballer. I remember he was a central part of that Madrid team that went to Old Trafford and passed them off the park. He was also integral to the side that lifted the European Cup scoring in the final against Valencia.

One of the few English players to aquit themselves abroad & he was probably the most successful.

Pighead · 16-10-2009 12:52PM

torresistheman wrote: »

McManaman was a class footballer. I remember he was a central part of that Madrid team that went to Old Trafford and passed them off the park.

Final Score: Man Utd 4 Real Madrid 3

Karmafaerie · 16-10-2009 01:06PM

flahavaj wrote: »

Arguing pedantics karma tbh. Same goes for any other player in the same situation from any other team, not just Robbie: he failed to live up to his early potential. It happens, for many reasons, its not an insult, its a fact.

Its not as if anyone said he p*ssed it all away.

Ahhhmmm.

flahavaj wrote: »

They were called the "Spice Boys" for a reason after all.

NabyLadistheman · 16-10-2009 01:06PM

Pighead wrote: »

Final Score: Man Utd 4 Real Madrid 3

A couple of late consolations if Im correct - Real were home & hosed long before

Karmafaerie · 16-10-2009 01:09PM

flahavaj wrote: »

Exactly SlickRic.

Does anybody think that Maradona, for example realised his FULL potential? He was absolutely sensational, possibly better than anyone ever for a certain period, but he could have done so for longer, for a variety of reasons and had an even greater legacy if he had.

Simples.

He could have had a greater legacy than being considerred the most talented, and second greatest footballer of all time?!!!!

Do you have to be better than Pele to not be a faliure nowadays!

Happy Monday · 16-10-2009 01:15PM

Is Aqualini fit for tomorrow?

gucci · 16-10-2009 01:16PM

It is straying off point, but to say Maradona didnt fulfil his potential is pushing it really. He had a crazy ending, but more or less inspiring a team to win a world cup and almost a second, and carrying a team like Napoli to the top of Italian football isnt a bad few years return. Suppose he could have solved world peace while he was at it.

Fowler was great, but lets not go over board here!

Mr Alan · 16-10-2009 01:18PM

Happy Monday wrote: »

Is Aqualini fit for tomorrow?

Won't be featuring until Arsenal in the Carling Cup most likely.

Pighead · 16-10-2009 01:31PM

PHB wrote: »

McManaman underachieved?
Scored over 50 goals and if there were stats I'd wager over 100 assists if not more.

Yep 112 assists for McManaman according to this table:
http://www.premiersoccerstats.com/Records.cfm?DOrderby=Ass&DYearby=All%20Seasons

Bit hard to follow but the assists stats are at the right hand side of teh page. Surprised to see Andy Cole with so many. (Not strictly Liverpool related I know but it does have a couple of Liverpool players in the top twenty, three if you include Heskey!)

SlickRic · 16-10-2009 01:36PM

people forget how good heskey actually was for us, just a bit inconsistent.

owen had a lot to thank him for.

Chardee MacDennis · 16-10-2009 01:37PM

mike65 wrote: »

Albert Riera chats with Guardians Small Talk column

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/oct/15/albert-riera-small-talk

indulging in a bit of illegal downloading there Albert? very surprising!

flahavaj · 16-10-2009 01:43PM

The Spice Boys comment was more tongue in cheek in fairness. I'll always associate that unfortunate nickname with those horrid suits in the 1996 Cup Final than anything to do with their social lives.

And as for Maradona, well yes, I would say he didn't acieve his potential. How much better would he have been if he hadn't got hooked on coke? Just because he achieved a certain level of greatness, doesn't mean he wasn't capable of more if he'd been better looked after or kept the right company. Whether hes regarded as the second best ever isn't relevant, the point is Maradona could have had similar impact at the 1990 and 1994 World Cups that he had in 1986 if hed kept his nose clean (pun intended!). Someone else mentioned Pele who graced the 58, 62 and 70 World Cups with incredible displays: Maradona could have done similar if he'd achieved his TRUE potential.

Sorry this has gone so far off topic, maybe this topic could do with its own thread?

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread [mod warning #11145, #32140 (see OP)]

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