Why do People Believe in God(s)?

Turtwig · 30-09-2009 09:35PM #1

Ahh science you gotta love it.
Here's a superb video from RDFTV on the why behind people believing in God. A little warning though, parts of it aren't that lay friendly.
Note, Also: It is a little (I stress, a little) bit biased.

Brief Intro to pareidolia

Article with a pretty scary opening anecdote

Also a very good article here from NY Times (grab a coffee first

)
How evolution found God (NS subscribers only, eightyfish may help summarise this;)...I'll see if I can dig up the hardcopy.)

Hopefully I can dig up more.:)

Righty, to the topic of this thread.

Firstly, folks if you know of any more links to science content regarding why people believe please share it with us

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All of the above, discuss theories that humans invented god as a means of collective and social interaction. They also ponder whether humanity invented religion as an accident of brain evolution. The jury is still out on both of these.
I added the pareidolia bit because it show's just how susceptible we are to giving attributes or 'causes' to the things that clearly don't have any.
Personally, I think religion evolved because of it being a sociable advantage in grouping together a society and in that sense our brain wiring is now fcked up:p. Thankfully though, our brains aren't concrete (ok parts of it is) and we can, with some difficulty, kick the habits.
I'm posting this thread for one simple reason: it is my own personal belief that once you understand something better e.g. how the mind works, you can better understand the person you are trying to communicate with. Yes, having a high level of Emotional Intelligence helps, but if we can better understand the mechanisms behind closed mindedness then we can understand how to open it.(And of course, as a consequence of this, improve our EI in the process:).)
I'm going to to ramble on just a wee bit more. If the researchers can identify, within some degree of confidence, the factors which cause the mind to close upon questioning, we should be able to arm ourselves with better methodologies that help to avoid some of these of 'closure' trigger mechanisms.
Just my two cents,

Apologies if a similar thread exists, I did a search and nothing came up.

Agricola · 30-09-2009 11:43PM

Ive seen alot of Christopher Hitchens recently and am currently reading his book "God is not Great". He makes some points about this very topic which I think make alot of sense. Namely, that religion was humanities first attempt at philosophy, the first attempt to explain where we all came from, who or what created everything we see and why we are here. Its was obviously a bad attempt as it pre-dated modern scientific discovery by thousands of years. Also we grow up to love and respect parent figures (hopefully!) who we initially depend on for everything. When those parents pass away, God takes up the mantel as the "Father"
Also, if we are born of a mother and father, its obvious that early civilisations would assume there was a first mother or father who created and started everything, ie God.
All it then takes is for people in positions of power to use the strangle hold that these beliefs have on people to their own ends. The longer this goes on and the older the dogma becomes, it unfortunately gives it a weight of importance that it doesnt deserve.

philologos · 01-10-2009 10:39PM

The best way to find out why people believe in God is to well, ask them surely?

Max Power1 · 01-10-2009 10:41PM

Jakkass wrote: »

The best way to find out why people believe in God is to well, ask them surely?

id say youll find its a mixture of "comfort belief", upbringing (being spoonfed religion from birth) and lack of logical thinking.

philologos · 01-10-2009 10:45PM

Max Power1 wrote: »

id say youll find its a mixture of "comfort belief", upbringing (being spoonfed religion from birth) and lack of logical thinking.

I'd think you'd find this is what you want to believe rather than being representative of reality in a lot of cases. I'm not denying that for some people faith is primarily about comfort, or upbringing, however, I arrived at my position through critical thought, and through reading what the Bible had to say about my life.

If you are unwilling to accept that many people become Christians via this mechanism you are no longer engaging in reality, but rather in what you want to be reality.

It's also nice to believe that atheists have a monopoly on logical thinking, but this isn't the truth either.

Max Power1 · 01-10-2009 11:14PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I arrived at my position through critical thought, and through reading what the Bible had to say about my life.

Thats quite an oxymoron there!

SO the bible is the truth and relates to your life does it? Do you believe all of it? Or decide which part of "god's truth" is true and which isnt? Evolution? Transubstantiation? Immaculate conception? (Mary) Virgin birth? (Christ). Do you consider all/some/none of this to be fact? The whole idea is a bit far fetched imho.

Gibs · 02-10-2009 12:31AM

Thanks for the links above - really clear and intelligent exposition of the cognitive neuroscience of religious belief.

Great stuff!!:D

Zombrex · 02-10-2009 12:56AM

Jakkass wrote: »

I arrived at my position through critical thought, and through reading what the Bible had to say about my life.

I think you just demonstrated why asking them probably won't help very much

philologos · 02-10-2009 07:51AM

Max Power1 wrote: »

Thats quite an oxymoron there!

Not really. I didn't blindly accept. I spent months thinking it through.

Max Power1 wrote: »

SO the bible is the truth and relates to your life does it?

Yes. It provides me a moral path, and it provides me a decent way to relate to God and to relate to other people, and it sets a challenge for me.

Max Power1 wrote: »

Do you believe all of it?

I believe that God created the world, I believe that He spoke through prophets, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and redeemed the world from its sinfulness. How am I doing so far?

Max Power1 wrote: »

Or decide which part of "god's truth" is true and which isnt?

Reason.

Max Power1 wrote: »

Evolution?

I believe that this is compatible with Christianity. There is only so far one can say they are absolutely sure about the mechanisms by which all came into being, but it seems most likely.

Max Power1 wrote: »

Transubstantiation?

I believe that this is a symbolic act whereby the Crucifixion and the Passion of Jesus Christ is remembered. We are to take on Christ during communion so that we can become more like Him. He separated us from our sin by grace, and reconciled us to Him.

Max Power1 wrote: »

Immaculate conception? (Mary)

This isn't contained anywhere in the Bible, so no. I'm personally a non-Catholic, which is applicable to the above also.

Max Power1 wrote: »

Virgin birth? (Christ).

Yes.

Max Power1 wrote: »

Do you consider all/some/none of this to be fact?

See above.

Max Power1 wrote: »

The whole idea is a bit far fetched imho.

I really do not think it unreasonable if a higher power exists (the crucial question) that all of these things could happen.

Wicknight wrote: »

I think you just demonstrated why asking them probably won't help very much

If you want to reject the truth, that's your choice but surely it's ultimately futile. I mean Christians know why they believe, we don't need other people to tell us.

eoin5 · 02-10-2009 09:12AM

Jakkass wrote: »

The best way to find out why people believe in God is to well, ask them surely?

Have you heard Tom Cruise? Its helpful information but it should be subject to the same skeptical scrutiny that any improbable theory with no evidence should get.

red_ice · 02-10-2009 09:24AM

Max Power1 wrote: »

lack of logical thinking.

Everyone who has a faith in their lives are void of logical thinking? Dont be such a muppet, what kind of idiot comes to that conclusion and puts it forward as reason? No wait... you already answered that for me

Jakkass wrote: »

If you are unwilling to accept that many people become Christians via this mechanism you are no longer engaging in reality, but rather in what you want to be reality.

It's also nice to believe that atheists have a monopoly on logical thinking, but this isn't the truth either.

good point

<edit>

Jakkass wrote: »

If you want to reject the truth, that's your choice but surely it's ultimately futile. I mean Christians know why they believe, we don't need other people to tell us.

One of the best parts about it it when people get angry and refuse to accept "because i have faith in it" as an answer

Rev Hellfire · 02-10-2009 09:43AM

red_ice wrote: »

One of the best parts about it it when people get angry and refuse to accept "because i have faith in it" as an answer

Angry is perhaps too strong a word to use here, frustrated would typically be more accurate.

It seems at times that those who use 'faith' as a defence do so in the belief that it does not have quantified.

It might not need to be proven (after all that's the point of it) but it should at least be logical if not demonstrable. The former requirement seems to be the bit that most believers seem to miss and the later that most atheists misunderstand imho etc etc...

Zombrex · 02-10-2009 09:46AM

Jakkass wrote: »

If you want to reject the truth, that's your choice but surely it's ultimately futile.

The truth is the thing that matters to me, which is why I would not hold your own ability to assess objectively why you believe particularly highly.

Jakkass wrote: »

I mean Christians know why they believe

I don't see a whole lot of evidence for that.

I don't think anyone here would consider your stated reasons for believing in Christianity as strong examples of rational critical reasoning. Quite the opposite in fact, most of the regular posters here could tear them apart given five minutes (and have in the past).

That doesn't seem to concern you very much, so I highly suspect that there are other motivating factors behind your belief, which makes you telling me there isn't some what pointless if the purpose is to determine why you, and others, believe what you believe.

Jakkass wrote: »

we don't need other people to tell us.

Fair enough, but then I don't think people here are trying to tell you anything.

RealEstateKing · 02-10-2009 09:53AM

Everyone who has a faith in their lives are void of logical thinking? Dont be such a muppet, what kind of idiot comes to that conclusion and puts it forward as reason? No wait... you already answered that for me

Of course religious people are not devoid of reason, that is plain to see. However, when it comes to the tenets of their faith, they simply choose not to use the powers of reason that they use elswhere. It is an interesting facet of human thought processes that it is possible to be a lawyer, say, and depend on logic and argument for your living, and not use the same powers of deduction when it comes to your faith.

It is rather like having a friend who is intelligent, level-headed and rational in most areas of life, but starts going out with a psycho bitch who treates him like crap. You can sit him down and tell him that she slept with his best friend, stole his money and started a fist fight with a bouncer while on coke, but he'll still just be thinking "Mmmm, her hair smells like vanilla Ice cream.."

Obviously, some religious people feel the pull between their highly developed intelligence and the infantile simplicity of the fairy stories they have chosen to beleive in: The fairy stories have a pull preciseley because they are infantile - they appeal to a primal part of the brain that all of us, religious or not, have inside us: that is why religious stories are full of such powerful primal imagery: Burning bushes, blood and wine, crucifixions, virgin births.

However, for the more intelligent religious believer like Jackass above, this disconnect between his intelligence and his beleifs has to be bridged somehow, so he convinces himself that his beleif in a whole host of clunky primal Bronze Age myths is as rational as his belief that water boils at 100 degrees centigrade.

In reality it is anything but, it is an indulgence in the irrational (like a rock concert, romantic love or cheering at a football game) that is profoundly satisfying to the human soul, but falls apart on examination.

philologos · 02-10-2009 10:05AM

By the truth I mean the truth that Christians do think about what they believe, not the truth of the Gospel.

Dades · 02-10-2009 10:11AM

red_ice - less personal in your responses to other posters, thanks.

RealEstateKing - Leaving aside your thoughts on Jakkass' beliefs, you make some excellent general points in that post.

liamw · 02-10-2009 03:06PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I really do not think it unreasonable if a higher power exists (the crucial question) that all of these things could happen.

Ah I hate when religious people do this, retreating back to the point where humans do not have an understanding yet. From thunder, to the design of living things, and now pushed right back to the origin of the Big Bang.

A deist can try to use this argument! A thiest cannot use this argument to convince us that the resurrection really happened or of the virgin birth or all the other fairy tales from the bronze age.

Even if you could prove that a supernatural entity created the universe (is this even logically possible?), you have still proven absolutely nothing about the specific teachings of your petty religion that surfaced only a couple of thousand years ago... religion seems so petty when you look at things on a cosmic timescale

ShooterSF · 02-10-2009 07:05PM

Jakkass wrote: »

The best way to find out why people believe in God is to well, ask them surely?

Really? Take pareidolia as mentioned by the OP. Is someone whose mind may have tricked them into seeing something going to tell you they saw something or that they thought they saw something?
What we perceive happens and what actually happens are often two different things. How is it fair to expect someone to explain something when they only have the perceived information at hand.
If you ask a child why he believes in santa he's not likely to tell you it's because other's do and he has been told he exists and his parents leave presents for him to find in the morning in the name of santa. Rather he will tell you because he leaves presents every year. Now he believes in santa and he is being honest when he gives you the second answer but it's not true. It's not his fault though.
Can you see then that it's not as simple as asking? (before anyone starts I'm not comparing god to santa it was just a useful example)

Iang87 · 04-10-2009 01:30PM

why do i believe in god, dont know why i just do bit of blind faith you know.

also i'm happier knowing i believe in god than being one of those ignorant atheists tossers who call people who believe stupid and afraid to think for themselves etc

now before a get abuse please note i didnt label all the atheists that way

Turtwig · 04-10-2009 01:36PM

Iang87 wrote: »

also i'm happier knowing i believe in god than being one of those ignorant atheists tossers who call people who believe stupid and afraid to think for themselves etc

now before a get abuse please note i didnt label all the atheists that way

Drugs make people happy too;)

philologos · 04-10-2009 01:52PM

Iang87 wrote: »

why do i believe in god, dont know why i just do bit of blind faith you know.

also i'm happier knowing i believe in god than being one of those ignorant atheists tossers who call people who believe stupid and afraid to think for themselves etc

now before a get abuse please note i didnt label all the atheists that way

This doesn't do the Christian position any favours.

Turtwig · 04-10-2009 02:24PM

Jakkass wrote: »

The best way to find out why people believe in God is to well, ask them surely?

Far from it mate

I've already been beaten to this by RealEsatateKing and Shooter (dam ye:p) .

Jakkass, religion is an emotional thing, so asking someone why they believe in God is akin to asking them why do they love their partner. When you asked them the question about God they normally interpret it as an attack on their faith similiar to saying that loving their partner is stupid even though you have neither or said or meant such a thing. This is one of the amazing things about fundamental religion in that it can create such an emotional bond within the persons head that they view any question to it as an attack or challenge.

Expanding on Shooters point about Santa. The child's brain is still 'plastic' i.e s/he can still change the wiring in his/her brain allowing him/her to ditch a habit. Conversely though, it is this 'plasticity' that make children so vulnerable to believing anything and easily been brainwashed by cults. The upside to all this though is that with the right guidance the child can still lose these beliefs. The adults picture however is much much worse. After a certain level of maturity has been reached the brain circuitry is more or less fixed. This means Adults will find it harder to kick various physical habits (e.g eyebrow plucking) and perhaps, more crucially, lose the ability to change their way of thinking if they are not willing to meditate. By this maturity stage the religious beliefs are also a concrete part of this wiring and thus it can very hard to allow for, or for that matter, even comprehend non-religious ideas.

This is why, for example, a child will often accept they are wrong. The adult, however, is more likely to disagree to the point that all their arguments have been exhausted, but amazingly, they still feel that there is something out there supporting their belief and they are still right.

Before anyone replies stating the obvious, yes, this is true for atheists as well, but because they are skeptics common sense would dictate that they should tend to be more rational when it comes to everything. However, we all know that common sense can be wrong.:) Bottom line evolution has fcked us because our minds will always tend to close up on something. Meditation seems to be one method to attempt opening it..

Sea Sharp · 04-10-2009 02:28PM

Force of habit and psychological dependency.
People don't want to adjust their belief system to one that acknowledges that they will never see lost loved ones again and that this petty little existence really is all there is.

eoin5 · 04-10-2009 06:42PM

Iang87 wrote: »

why do i believe in god, dont know why i just do bit of blind faith you know.

also i'm happier knowing i believe in god than being one of those ignorant atheists tossers who call people who believe stupid and afraid to think for themselves etc

I would also say that some probably do chose their beliefs to escape from reason and reality. Why wouldnt people? Its religion 101. I dont think theres anything wrong with that on a personal level.

philologos · 04-10-2009 07:55PM

Malty T: Religion is about as emotional as atheism is for people. All things involve emotions, yet there is a rational side in most things that we do also. This includes acceptance of faith, or denouncing such faith.

Turtwig · 04-10-2009 08:28PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Malty T: Religion is about as emotional as atheism is for people. All things involve emotions, yet there is a rational side in most things that we do also. This includes acceptance of faith, or denouncing such faith.

*Sigh*

Jakkass, what did I just tell you?

Before anyone [You listening Jakkass?] replies stating the obvious, yes, this is true for atheists as well, but because they are skeptics common sense would dictate that they should tend to be more rational when it comes to everything. However, we all know that common sense can be wrong. Bottom line evolution has fcked us because our minds will always tend to close up on something. Meditation seems to be one method to attempt opening it..

P.s You can call me Malty (Dam Boards had that username taken:mad:),or just Malt

philologos · 04-10-2009 08:32PM

That's just snubbing the question. Skepticism can be irrational and misplaced. Just because someone is a skeptic doesn't automatically make them more rational.

I find it a bit presumptuous that people who do not have faith can make nonsensical assumptions about why people like I believe. I also find it highly presumptuous to snub off what people of faith have to actually say about why they believe because you do not like the answer.

I don't believe there is anything f'ed up about peoples propensity to believe, it's there for a reason, and it is one of the better faculties that human beings have.

Turtwig · 04-10-2009 08:42PM

Jakkass wrote: »

That's just snubbing the question. Skepticism can be irrational and misplaced. Just because someone is a skeptic doesn't automatically make them more rational.

It's a non question:p. Why are you still saying this? I admitted that people are often likely to make irrational decisions/judgements and that it works both ways religious or not.

I don't believe there is anything f'ed up about peoples propensity to believe, it's there for a reason, and it is one of the better faculties that human beings have.

Ok so you're ok with a child being easily brainwashed by a cult and being almost stuck in that mode if he becomes an adult?

I find it a bit presumptuous that people who do not have faith can make nonsensical assumptions about why people like I believe. I also find it highly presumptuous to snub off what people of faith have to actually say about why they believe because you do not like the answer.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough, but I'm not snubbing you, I'm merely stating what both religious and non religious scientists have thus far ascertained about how our minds believe in stuff.

philologos · 04-10-2009 08:48PM

Malty_T wrote: »

Ok so you're ok with a child being easily brainwashed by a cult and being almost stuck in that mode if he becomes an adult?

I'm okay with people learning about faith, and then being able to assess for themselves freely whether or not they wish to continue following it.

Getting into terminologies like cults is unhelpful, as we could debate what is a cult endlessly. Such is the nature of contested terms.

Malty_T wrote: »

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough, but I'm not snubbing you, I'm merely stating what both religious and non religious scientists have thus far ascertained about how our minds believe in stuff.

It isn't scientific fact in the slightest that our brains have been f'ed up in this respect.

Turtwig · 04-10-2009 08:59PM

Jakkass wrote: »

I'm okay with people learning about faith, and then being able to assess for themselves freely whether or not they wish to continue following it.

I'm not going to drag this into a child doctrination thread, but surely you'll argee that the child is vulnerable to believing anything? And a scientologist would find it easier to convince him/her than the likes of you?