An dtuigeann tú - a waste of 14 years?

Warfi · 29-09-2009 05:14PM

And with Irish you're always going to have the ar*ehole gaelgoir who'll look down on you because your Irish isn't perfect. I've only met one ar*ehole gaelgoir so far (most gaelgoirs are lovely), but the one is enough to put me off the language, a language in which I've previously gone to great lengths to improve and use everyday:mad:

Ollchailin · 29-09-2009 05:19PM

I'm an Irish teacher and if I tell people that's my job I often get a response along the lines of "Jesus, that must be awful" or they generally pull a "I think you're mental" face.

But I love Irish. I love teaching the language. I do not, however, relish the idea of facing a 5th year ordinary level class and having to explain to them "Right so lads, I know most of ye can't string a sentence together, but we've got these 5 poems and 5 stories that are totally irrelevant to you but that ye need to know for the exam". I'd love to just teach them how to speak it, but unfortunately I have to cover what's on the exam. So it's easy for people to say how badly it's taught, but teachers just have to cover the course content or we're not doing our job.

Luckily for Ordinary Level, only 18% of the course is now Literature-based, which has helped. Also, in the next few years, the Oral will go from being only worth 25% to being worth 40% of total marks.

More and more frequently though, students coming into first year are entering secondary school with an absolutely desperate standard of Irish. Some of my students told me that they hardly ever did Irish in primary school. I know of many primary school teachers with quite a poor standard of Irish. I pretty much have to start everything (how to say name, age, birthday, hobbies, all basic stuff) from scratch in First year, meaning those from Gaelscoileanna or those with a high standard of Irish end up losing a lot of the language. (Having said that, a huge number of students from Gaelscoileanna have huge problems writing Irish- whilst they can speak it, their spelling is atrocious, so they too can have issues at secondary level).

I would say to anyone with children who would like a boost in the language to go to the Gaeltacht at least once during secondary school. They'll make great friends, grow in confidence and independence and find they have a new found respect and love for the language- because that's exactly what it is- a language, not just a subject.

mobius42 · 29-09-2009 05:44PM

What I never understood about Irish was why they taught you the past tense first and the present tense after that.

Ollchailin · 29-09-2009 05:53PM

mobius42 wrote: »

What I never understood about Irish was why they taught you the past tense first and the present tense after that.

I know!!! When my First years come in it's all "Bhí mé" this and "Chuaigh mé" that... why can't you tell me what you're doing NOW?!?!

I think it might come from the whole thing of reading Irish rather than speaking it- and most things you read (stories etc) are in the past tense. But therein lies the problem- why are they learning to read it when they can't even speak it yet?!

almostnever · 29-09-2009 06:02PM

I'm repeating the Leaving Cert this year. Out of 36 repeats,only 6 of us kept up Irish,the rest of them chose to drop it for the year,despite the fact that the course hasn't changed. Only 2 people dropped English,a whole new course which has to be covered in a year.
I adore the Irish language,I really do. And I know it's been said a million times before,but the poetry and the prose are awful. Honestly,as someone who loves literature,I abhor that whole section. Oral Irish,the ability to comprehend and contextualise the language,is what is needed.
I do think Irish should be optional for the Leaving Cert,though. By forcing people to do it,you're developing their resentment of it. The above example just serves to prove that.

RMD · 29-09-2009 06:20PM

I find the curriculum incredibly stupid for Irish. I see no point in having people learn poetry and stories for exams where they wouldn't understand it if they didn't have a teacher explaining it to them.

Irish is essentially a foreign language to most of us even though it's the national language, it's needs to be taught like a foreign language so people will make more sense of it. I've done French for 4 years now, can speak it very well, can hold a conversation well with a fluent speaker, Irish.....I've learned it for 12 years and couldn't hold a conversation with anyone in it.

Warfi · 29-09-2009 06:37PM

Ollchailin wrote: »

More and more frequently though, students coming into first year are entering secondary school with an absolutely desperate standard of Irish. Some of my students told me that they hardly ever did Irish in primary school. I know of many primary school teachers with quite a poor standard of Irish. I pretty much have to start everything (how to say name, age, birthday, hobbies, all basic stuff) from scratch in First year, meaning those from Gaelscoileanna or those with a high standard of Irish end up losing a lot of the language. (Having said that, a huge number of students from Gaelscoileanna have huge problems writing Irish- whilst they can speak it, their spelling is atrocious, so they too can have issues at secondary level).

You don't need to have studied Irish at university level to teach primary level Irish, whereas you have to to teach Irish in secondary schools. I think that's part of the problem with the standard of Irish in primary schools and I wouldn't blame a teacher complaining about the standard when they're facing 30 first year students who can barely string a few words together!!
If there's a culture of speaking as Gaeilge in the primary school (not just gcaelsoileanna) the benefit gained is huge. It builds confidence in everyone, teachers included. Unfortunately it seems that there are a lot of primary teachers who've attended their Gaeltacht during their teaching course, and don't really have any interest in improving their fluency beyond what is needed for the classroom. Improving their fluency would involve getting all their friends to convert to speaking Irish so they can all have a chat down the pub as Gaeilge! Otherwise you can travel into Dublin (or nearest city) to join conversation groups. Which is the last thing most people would want when they've a load of paperwork to do.

citizen_p · 29-09-2009 06:40PM

dont see the point of the thing.....teach it like welsh in wales.....learn how to speak it nd then how to right it....

im terrible at it...i can only pick out words

TheCardHolder · 29-09-2009 06:42PM

If it wasn't for the Irish I wouldn't have gone to the gaeltacht which brought me some of the best times of my school summers

super_furry · 29-09-2009 06:42PM

The crucial question here is - why, after 14 years of tuition, are people still unable to speak the language?

TheCardHolder · 29-09-2009 06:47PM

The focus is on learning stories and poems for some reason

Kev_ps3 · 29-09-2009 08:03PM

It should be used more in our daily lives to encourage people to learn it. For example RTE could do the 6 and 9 o'clock news in Irish with English subtitles.

G_R · 29-09-2009 08:06PM

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

It should be used more in our daily lives to encourage people to learn it. For example RTE could do the 6 and 9 o'clock news in Irish with English subtitles.

just watch TG4

Corkfeen · 29-09-2009 08:22PM

I'm a gaelscoil fellow so have no real problem speaking the language. The rules can drive you nuts still

I think maybe making It a spoken exam for leaving cert would be a good idea. When have we ever been faced with the situation of writing something in irish?;)

pog it · 29-09-2009 09:33PM

Was watching Vincent Browne's prog last night and Alan Stanford was on the panel and he said something I hadn't thought of- education is failing people in that the joy of language isn't being taught.

Why don't teachers take out the radio/tv set for a couple of classes and let the students hear the real native Irish speakers speaking Irish- give the kids some insights into the differences, and you'd be amazed how they would come to appreciate Irish that bit more and enjoy learning it.

Most Irish secondary school teachers don't teach enough through Irish either- it is all taught through English. If they were to throw out the same sayings day in day out, that would stick with students. Easier way to teach and learn really. Hopefully teachers will start doing this when the 40% marks for the Irish oral comes into being.

soundsham · 29-09-2009 09:48PM

sdonn wrote: »

Just got thinking during the religion thread there how little a grasp I have of Irish. I mean, I can follow a simple enough conversation but to say I was fluent would be more than an overstatement.

When I was in school, we studied Irish for an everage of 40 minutes a day, or 2 hours a week, for 14 years. Taking the average school year that's nearly a thousand hours of tuition in the subject, yet most of the people who I left school with that did pass Irish could barely string a sentence together. And it wasn't for lack of trying or that I was a big thick, or anything.

Yet at college level we can happily do 20 hours a semester of a subject and pass it outright with barely any effort at all

Should we abolish Irish totally if it's not going to be taught right?

Or should we do what I'd be more inclined to, and overhaul the curriculum at pass level at least so that Honours Irish is not just the reserve of the super-dedicated?

Thoughts? (I know this is AH, so be funny if you're gonna slag) :P

same for maths so i guess........

G_R · 29-09-2009 09:51PM

soundsham wrote: »

same for maths so i guess........

in what way?

WoollyRedHat · 29-09-2009 09:53PM

The current way of teaching Irish is not working. It needs to be more practiable and easier.

If this doesn't happen, it should no longer be compulsory. So either reform or dump it, I think that's fair enough.

Theresalwaysone · 29-09-2009 09:57PM

I'd love to be fluent. I was terrible at in school thought so it was never really within my reach.

I think its become more of a burden than an actual subject people are interested in. Whether or not that right is another question.

The funny thing is, to the majority of people its no more useful than French or German, Tech Graphics or Chemistry.

Agricola · 29-09-2009 10:00PM

WoollyRedHat wrote: »

The current way of teaching Irish is not working. It needs to be more practiable and easier.

If this doesn't happen, it should no longer be compulsory. So either reform or dump it, I think that's fair enough.

Exactly. When ya start French in school, ya do role plays about living with french families, and learn the lingo for train stations, airports and how to order a baguette. All useful stuff. Its been years since i left school, but i find the bit i learned there very handy any time im in France. I remember the first time I went one summer, and the great thrill I had speaking to the female owner of a restaurant in Paris who hadnt a word of English.

The sad thing is if i went to the Gaeltacht, I probably couldnt do the same with someone over there without resorting to English.

LimeFruitGum · 29-09-2009 10:05PM

I didn't realise the Tuiseal Ginideach was the genitive case until 6th year - and I was one of the good honours students! *blush* For years, I would get essays returned to me with red "TG!!" squiggles besides certain phrases. Like, I would know that it was correct to say "ar fud an domhain" instead of "ar fud an domhan" , purely out of learning the pattern from my essay botúns, but it didn't click with me as to why the noun changed form.

I loved the Stair na Gaeilge part of the LC, I thought it was really interesting. Fecking poetry, though... I wonder if the sole point of writing Irish poetry these days is to make sure you get grants off the Arts Council or Foras na Gaeilge! I'd make it an optional module or save it for Uni.

There was a dearth of well-written Irish grammar books in English when I was in school. Back in my day (fadóóóóó....), there was a small blue grammar book that was only available in Irish. I've had a look at Donna Wong's Learners' Guide to Irish and I think she explains the grammar very well. But still, most Irish grammar books are only available as Gaeilge. I don't think it makes sense to continue publishing Irish grammar books in Irish, catering to a small sector who already have functional fluency, when the vast majority of learners are English-speaking and have a greater need for such material.

LimeFruitGum · 29-09-2009 10:13PM

pog it wrote: »

Hopefully teachers will start doing this when the 40% marks for the Irish oral comes into being.

the 40% oral sounds like a step in the right direction

Reflector · 29-09-2009 10:44PM

Have to say I resented Irish in school, had a fat dickhead who didn't teach us and was only there for his 3 months. I failed pass, having passed every other exam based on my primary school Irish which dwindled to almost nothing.
I think the focus should be to introduce it as a spoken language with oral Irish being 60-70% of the course for the 5/6 years with an optional choice of studying the language more indepth if you really like it for the LC. I wouldn't like to see it abolished just seriously overhauled it is unfortunate that it is used as some sort of badge of honour for irishness when so few people speak it. Get people using it every day and then it would really be a great thing

dylano_k · 29-09-2009 11:18PM

Few weeks ago i went on a date with a fluent Gaelige speaker, and when i told her that i didn't speak a word of Irish. She was far from impressed saying that i should be ashamed of myself. She was also horrified that i could speak Spanish 10 times better than Irish. I tried to explain that Spanish is more useful as the 3rd most spoken language in the world(afaik) but she was still unhappy. We have not being out since

Gaire

Warfi · 29-09-2009 11:30PM

dylano_k wrote: »

Few weeks ago i went on a date with a fluent Gaelige speaker, and when i told her that i didn't speak a word of Irish. She was far from impressed saying that i should be ashamed of myself. She was also horrified that i could speak Spanish 10 times better than Irish. I tried to explain that Spanish is more useful as the 3rd most spoken language in the world(afaik) but she was still unhappy. We have not being out since Gaire

So she was disgusted that you didn't happen to be surrounded by fluent Gaeilge speakers, or that you weren't born in a Gaeltacht, or that you didn't go to a Gaelscoil? I mean what the hell were you doing between the ages of 0 and 5 man!!???:pac:
That type of attitude irritates the hell out of me-it does nothing to further the idea of a live language and only deepens the divide between those who can and those who can't.

rainbow kirby · 29-09-2009 11:57PM

I *hated* Irish at school. It used to feel like the biggest waste of time, especially because I did ordinary level (got an A2 in the end) and I knew it wouldn't count for anything. I'm not linguistic-minded at all, and having to learn poetry and prose through a language I couldn't speak properly was just agony. It shouldn't be compulsory at Leaving Cert, forcing compulsory language and literature subjects puts students who are mathematical/scientific-minded at a huge disadvantage!

LimeFruitGum · 30-09-2009 12:05AM

dylano_k wrote: »

Few weeks ago i went on a date with a fluent Gaelige speaker, and when i told her that i didn't speak a word of Irish. She was far from impressed saying that i should be ashamed of myself. She was also horrified that i could speak Spanish 10 times better than Irish. I tried to explain that Spanish is more useful as the 3rd most spoken language in the world(afaik) but she was still unhappy. We have not being out since Gaire

At least you're fluent in a language, even if she doesn't like the one you learned. Honestly, I don't think some Gaelgóirs realise how off-putting their attitude is.

Aoifums · 30-09-2009 12:11AM

LimeFruitGum wrote: »

I didn't realise the Tuiseal Ginideach was the genitive case until 6th year - and I was one of the good honours students! *blush* For years, I would get essays returned to me with red "TG!!" squiggles besides certain phrases. Like, I would know that it was correct to say "ar fud an domhain" instead of "ar fud an domhan" , purely out of learning the pattern from my essay botúns, but it didn't click with me as to why the noun changed form.

I have no idea what that meant

pog it · 30-09-2009 02:20AM

Warfi wrote: »

So she was disgusted that you didn't happen to be surrounded by fluent Gaeilge speakers, or that you weren't born in a Gaeltacht, or that you didn't go to a Gaelscoil? I mean what the hell were you doing between the ages of 0 and 5 man!!???:pac:
That type of attitude irritates the hell out of me-it does nothing to further the idea of a live language and only deepens the divide between those who can and those who can't.

At least though these kind of snotty Gaeilgeoirs are very rare

And they prob grow out of it.

And even for those that are snotty it's not quite as bad as those who just plain hate Irish and are vocal about it eh.

Warfi · 30-09-2009 08:18AM

pog it wrote: »

At least though these kind of snotty Gaeilgeoirs are very rare And they prob grow out of it.

You'd think so

. I met a man (who should know better), who after hearing my effort told me that I wouldn't put up with speaking rubbish English. He practically dismissed the effort and time I'd spent trying to use the language.

He's supposed to be a teacher, I wonder is he as dismissive when the kids in his class make an effort?

I agree with you about these snotty kinds being rare though! I've met the most lovely, patient and kind Gaelgoirs

. Unfortunately this one man's opinion is sticking out for me.:rolleyes:

An dtuigeann tú - a waste of 14 years?

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