Irish prisons 'in breach of human rights standards'

TheZohanS · 26-09-2009 11:47AM

dlofnep wrote: »

Everyone in this thread has immediately used the most evil people in society as a basis for this; far from rational.

No they haven't.

dlofnep · 26-09-2009 11:55AM

Ok, the majority have.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 26-09-2009 11:55AM

dlofnep wrote: »

Everyone in this thread has immediately used the most evil people in society as a basis for this; far from rational.

Seriously?.

.

af_thefragile · 26-09-2009 01:07PM

Aah, stupid liberals!!
Bring back the death penalty and everything will be fine!

Prison isn't a place for vacation where you can chill out with your other scum mates in there smoking weed and making new contacts.
Prison is a punishment that makes you think a million times before you ever think about committing a crime again.

dlofnep · 26-09-2009 01:13PM

Nicole Acidic Banner wrote: »

Seriously?.

.

I corrected myself! Stop being pedantic you auld codger

Nodin · 26-09-2009 01:16PM

af_thefragile wrote: »

Aah, stupid liberals!!
Bring back the death penalty and everything will be fine!

Of course when you could get the death penalty for sheep stealing, sheep were still stolen, but don't let that worry you....

Poccington · 26-09-2009 01:19PM

Lol @ people acting like prisons are hell etc.

How many prisoners have mobile phones? How many of them get drugs smuggled into them? How many of the more serious criminals are still able to run their little gangs on a daily basis while in prison? How many prisoners are getting away with attacking Prison Officers?

Yep, those prisoners really are up against it.

dlofnep · 26-09-2009 01:24PM

Poccington wrote: »

Lol @ people acting like prisons are hell etc.

Have you been to prison? How can you validate your claim on how good the conditions are?

Odysseus · 26-09-2009 01:25PM

Out of interest, have anyone who is calling for prisons that will not conform to basic human rights actually ever seen the inside of a prison?

I'm firmly believe that prisons should punish, but additionally they should rehabilitate. Part of my work involves working with people whilst they are detained, our prisons in my opinion are a sh!t holes, little opportunities to rehabilitate. Of course you can't force a person to change their lifestyle, but this goes both ways. Rehabilitation won't change a person if they don't won't to, but additionally, the recommendations people are making here won't change a person either.

tallaght01 · 26-09-2009 01:25PM

To say that criminals should be made live in their own piss etc because they deserve it etc etc is just being over simplistic. It's completely ignoring the fact that they have been put somewhere to keep them away from the public until they are safe to let out.

This does not equate with treating them as being subhuman. Their punishment is to be taken out of society for a period of time. Their punishment is not having all of their liberty and dignity taken away from them.

It also ignores circumstance. There's a bloody good reason that poorer, disadvantaged people end up in prison, and a tiny minority are from privileged backgrounds. That is because circumstance dictates how your life goes.

This always sparks a stampeded of "I was poor as an Ethiopian and I didn't go to jail" responses. But anyone who knows anything about sensible argument knows that arguing by counter-example proves nothing.

I reckon put people away if they are a danger to society. If they aren't dangerous, make them work on the outside for the benefit of society. Stop them holding down any other job etc. Tag them if needed. Rehabilitate the junkies. Educate the illiterate ones. Keep the drug dealers, the murderers, the violent guys etc inside, though. But give them toilets and somewhere to wash, for jesus' sake.

I know it's not the popular AH response, but saying things like "they all deserve what they get, they're scum, they should have no rights" shows a complete an utter lack of understanding of A) How you rehabilitate people

The concept of humanity and C) the societal factors which lead people to become criminals.

Even if you don't have a humanitarian bone in your body, you can't claim that the current system benefits us or the criminals.

dlofnep · 26-09-2009 01:26PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

To say that criminals should be made live in their own piss etc because they deserve it etc etc is just being over simplistic. It's completely ignoring the fact that they have been put somewhere to keep them away from the public until they are safe to let out.

This does not equate with treating them as being subhuman. Their punishment is to be taken out of society for a period of time. Their punishment is not having all of their liberty and dignity taken away from them.

It also ignores circumstance. There's a bloody good reason that poorer, disadvantaged people end up in prison, and a tiny minority are from privileged backgrounds. That is because circumstance dictates how your life goes.

This always sparks a stampeded of "I was poor as an Ethiopian and I didn't go to jail" responses. But anyone who knows anything about sensible argument knows that arguing by counter-example proves nothing.

I reckon put people away if they are a danger to society. If they aren't dangerous, make them work on the outside for the benefit of society. Stop them holding down any other job etc. Tag them if needed. Rehabilitate the junkies. Educate the illiterate ones. Keep the drug dealers, the murderers, the violent guys etc inside, though. But give them toilets and somewhere to wash, for jesus' sake.

I know it's not the popular AH response, but saying things like "they all deserve what they get, they're scum, they should have no rights" shows a complete an utter lack of understanding of A) How you rehabilitate people The concept of humanity and C) the societal factors which lead people to become criminals.

Even if you don't have a humanitarian bone in your body, you can't claim that the current system benefits us or the criminals.

Great post.

Odysseus · 26-09-2009 01:26PM

Poccington wrote: »

Lol @ people acting like prisons are hell etc.

How many prisoners have mobile phones? How many of them get drugs smuggled into them? How many of the more serious criminals are still able to run their little gangs on a daily basis while in prison? How many prisoners are getting away with attacking Prison Officers?

Yep, those prisoners really are up against it.

Quite a few, but I have no stats, do you?

Funkytown · 26-09-2009 01:40PM

prison is meant to be rehabilitation, the punishment is the removal from society, not the conditions of the place they are removed to.

you best judge a society by how it treats its prisoners.

TomOl · 26-09-2009 01:43PM

The Penal Reform Trust is made up of nice, middle class people who live in nice, middle class areas and their knowledge of crime is based on what they hear from prisioners and people like John Lonegan and Peter McVerry.
They mean well but are very innocent and trusting and a bit old fashioned. Judges, solictors, barristers and probation officers also fall into this grouping. So I would totally ignore anything they have to say - just nod at them but don't take them seriously.

On a different but related topic - I cannot understand why no male prisioner in Mountjoy has taken a case to the Equality Authority complaining about the different standards of treatment for male and female prisioners. Female have ensuite bedrooms - not cells, cook their own food, wear their own clothes, have one to one counselling and endless classes and most importantare not handcuffed when going to jail. Males, on the other hand, are paraded before the TV cameras in handcuffs to humilate them, they share cells with other inmates, even those considered dangerous, have to go to the toilet in buckets in their cells and no counselling and few classes.

I agree that prisons should be reserved for those gulity of violent crime or anti social behaviour which causes fear and anxiety to others. Driving without insurance or tax should involve the car being removed and sold, same with fines not being paid. That would free up places for thugs.

af_thefragile · 26-09-2009 01:43PM

Nodin wrote: »

Of course when you could get the death penalty for sheep stealing, sheep were still stolen, but don't let that worry you....

Yes but at least they won't be stolen as much.
And if you say capital punishment makes no difference then you're wrong.

Now days a lot of criminal see prisons as some sorta vacation.
Not the small tax and debt dodging criminals but the big criminals who are involved in gangs and stuff. The one's who're the real threat to society.

They go in there, meet their mates who're already in there, make new mates in there. They make new contacts and see it all as some sorta social vacation rather than a punishment.

When they get out they're even more dangerous than when they were sent in as now they've made more contacts to run their crime more effectively.

This is why majority still commit crime after getting out of prison.
The whole justice system is nothing more than a joke!!
People are more concerned about suing their local businesses to try to mint some cash out of them than they're to make sure the criminals going in don't come back out as criminals.

Any person proven guilty of a major crime such as rape, manslaughter etc should be put immediately to death so that others can think twice before they decide on doing something of such nature.

Any person proven guilty of a minor crime such as intentional theft (without reason, not out of desperation) and violence (drug/gang related) should be sent to a harsh and long sentence in prison where its made sure when they come out they don't go back to join their gangs again and continue their criminal activities.
Actually everyone associated with criminal gangs should be persecuted to hash and long sentences.

Only through putting in the fear of a capital or harsh punishment in the hearts of criminals can crime be cut down.

Kipperhell · 26-09-2009 01:47PM

Kiera wrote: »

You know quite well what i meant!

Yup and even reckless drivers should live in a cell with their own piss.

And no, i have never done something i could have got prison time for. wtf kind of question is that? Were you expecting me to say i pistol whipped so bitch over a parking spot?

I think I know what you mean but I don't think you know what that actually means in practice.

So a prisoner should have to risk their health added to their punishment is your view regardless of crime. Prison officers should also be put at risk too.

So you never were involved in a altercation or punched somebody, bought /took drugs, drunk in public, drove recklessly/above the speed limit etc...

The question is about how aware are you of the people who are in prison.

tallaght01 · 26-09-2009 01:49PM

af_thefragile wrote: »

Yes but at least they won't be stolen as much.
And if you say capital punishment makes no difference then you're wrong.

That is completely and utterly untrue. Capital punishment has never had the effect of reducing crime. Even the people who sanction execution know that. It's a political issue, which costs votes if removed.

But let's not kid ourselves that it actually serves a function, other than appeasing the masses.

Nodin · 26-09-2009 02:03PM

af_thefragile wrote: »

Yes but at least they won't be stolen as much.
And if you say capital punishment makes no difference then you're wrong.
.

You've statistics to prove this?

af_thefragile wrote: »

Any person proven guilty of a major crime such as rape, manslaughter etc should be put immediately to death so that others can think twice before they decide on doing something of such nature..

Thats what they used do. Seemed to make little difference, except perhaps for a greater willingness to kill witnesses.

af_thefragile wrote: »

Only through putting in the fear of a capital or harsh punishment in the hearts of criminals can crime be cut down.

It didn't work when it was applied, why would it work now?

Kiera · 26-09-2009 02:06PM

Kipperhell wrote: »

I think I know what you mean but I don't think you know what that actually means in practice.

So a prisoner should have to risk their health added to their punishment is your view regardless of crime. Prison officers should also be put at risk too.

So you never were involved in a altercation or punched somebody, bought /took drugs, drunk in public, drove recklessly/above the speed limit etc...

The question is about how aware are you of the people who are in prison.

You asked me if i have ever done something that would land me in prison. Its a stupid question. I have done things that i could have been charged for yes but never something so serious that would send me to prison.

tallaght01 · 26-09-2009 02:10PM

Kiera wrote: »

You asked me if i have ever done something that would land me in prison. Its a stupid question. I have done things that i could have been charged for yes but never something so serious that would send me to prison.

But you COULD have, under the right circumstances. THAT is the key.

Kiera · 26-09-2009 02:14PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

But you COULD have, under the right circumstances. THAT is the key.

No i couldnt. EVER! Having a small bit of weed/pills/coke wouldnt land me in prison.

tallaght01 · 26-09-2009 02:16PM

Kiera wrote: »

No i couldnt. EVER! Having a small bit of weed/pills/coke wouldnt land me in prison.

under the right circumstances you could.

Kiera · 26-09-2009 02:19PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

under the right circumstances you could.

You're like a dog with a bone. The question was "have you ever done something that would land you in prison". Read slowly Tallaght, NO i have not!

lizzyvera · 26-09-2009 02:20PM

My brother's friend went to prison for a week because he ate his bus ticket and an inspector got on. He maintained through the case that he had bought his ticket and ate it and refused to pay the fine. He actually did no wrong, wouldn't have had to pay the fine, and ended up in prison!

I would personally pay the fine tbh, but it goes to show that some people in there probably shouldn't be.

I also don't see how living in squalid filth is supposed to make you reach an epiphany and stop stealing and taking drugs. I know some people are angry and naturally want to see criminals suffer, but all the system does is give those people some satisfaction, and does nothing to actually address the crime problem.

Personally, my house has been broken into a few times, my wallet has been stolen a few times and I was threatened at an atm with a hammer. I was sexually assaulted on a train when I was 14.

I would still rather the money was spent on economic stimulus and public services than expensive prison sentences for petty criminals. I'm more afraid of long term unemployment and poverty and emigration than anything in the world.

Local-womanizer · 26-09-2009 02:22PM

We should follow the style of American Prisons.The majority are in good shape but they dont let their inmates sit about all day.

They have them out working most days,in return for a minimal wage which they need to buy food.There is one prison that wont allow money from family so the inmates only source of income is the work.They dont work,they dont eat.

In return society gets something off these inmates and they dont pay as much towards the upkeep of the inmates.

PCPhoto · 26-09-2009 02:22PM

ok... so the general consensus is agreed that the system is at fault ??? not the criminals who actually commit the crimes ?

1. theres little or no rehab
2. unsanitary conditions
3. cramped prison cells
4. blah blah blah

Personally - I believe that the system is terrible in this country, its true that there is little or no rehab offered or available to prisoners...However its also true that some of the prisoners are habitual criminals and do not wish to engage in any rehab.

the entire system needs an overhaul - BUT ... we also need the judges/politicians and criminals to understand the victims of crime need to be supported, I have been the victim of crime on more than one time - (robbery/assault/threat to kill etc) and unfortunately my attackers were never brought to justice.

The system is underfunded, badly managed, nor organised properly (co-operation between services), and doesnt work for prisoner or society in general.

like most of the Governmental systems (HSE, Prison Services, etc) .... proper restructuring and reform is required - but the people who are capable of making the changes are simply unable to find their backbone and/or their voice.

I think we need to explain to our judges what happens when someone is assaulted, what happens to the victim, what happens to the criminal..... what happens to items that have been stolen ?

criminals NEED to be punished - if they want to change their ways they need to be assisted - but they must realise that this would mean loosing contact with their criminal "friends", failure to stay off the clean pathway should result in lengthy prison sentences - as punishment - removal from a society in which they refuse to be civil.

tallaght01 · 26-09-2009 02:23PM

Kiera wrote: »

You're like a dog with a bone. No i couldnt. End of!

If you were continually abused by a relative, for years as a kid. and they told you they'd kill your parents if you told. And your life was unbearable.And you were abused every single day.

And someone offered you drugs when the booze stopped taking the pain away. And you got hooked. And you got so desperate for money to feed your habit, that you stole repeatedly. You got a few fines, and a bit of community service, but no one helped you with rehab.

Then you did it one final time. And the judge elected to send you down.

It can happen to anyone. You have the capacity to do something that could land you in jail under the right circumstances. You're arguing that, under current circumstances you haven't got it in you. BUt that's not the same thing.

Kiera · 26-09-2009 02:25PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

If you were continually abused by a relative, for years as a kid. and they told you they'd kill your parents if you told. And your life was unbearable.And you were abused every single day.

And someone offered you drugs when the booze stopped taking the pain away. And you got hooked. And you got so desperate for money to feed your habit, that you stole repeatedly. You got a few fines, and a bit of community service, but no one helped you with rehab.

Then you did it one final time. And the judge elected to send you down.

It can happen to anyone. You have the capacity to do something that could land you in jail under the right circumstances. You're arguing that, under current circumstances you haven't got it in you. BUt that's not the same time.

You totally missed the question. I was asked had I (as in ME) ever done anything (as in the past). Geddit?

tallaght01 · 26-09-2009 02:27PM

Local-womanizer wrote: »

We should follow the style of American Prisons.The majority are in good shape but they dont let their inmates sit about all day.

They have them out working most days,in return for a minimal wage which they need to buy food.There is one prison that wont allow money from family so the inmates only source of income is the work.They dont work,they dont eat.

In return society gets something off these inmates and they dont pay as much towards the upkeep of the inmates.

Great idea. They were saying on the joe duffy show the other day that mazda has a car plant in one of their jails in Holland. The cash gets paid to their relatives, so they can support their families, and the poverty cycle doesn't continue.

Great for the family of prisoners.

Shyte for anyone who drives a mazda :P

tallaght01 · 26-09-2009 02:29PM

tallaght01 wrote: »

But you COULD have, under the right circumstances. THAT is the key.

Kiera wrote: »

No i couldnt. EVER!

tallaght01 wrote: »

under the right circumstances you could.

Kiera wrote: »

You totally missed the question. I was asked had I as ever done anything Geddit?

NO.

Irish prisons 'in breach of human rights standards'

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