a bit rich?

Nozzferrahhtoo, I assure you, if there is any pleasure in this thread, it's all yours.

I do not see much value is listing examples of what men would experience different to women and vice versa, or listing differences between the sexes that could have an impact on raising a child - which clearly is what you want. I suggest perhaps searching google yourself, if you're really interested.

Clearly you do not believe what I do, that in an ideal situation, a child would have the benifit of two loving parents, a man and a woman. And thats fine.

I have no interest in providing examples as to how men and women are different, or as to how the experiences of a man and a woman would be different. Any sensible person would take that as is, and move on.

Not at all. I was discussing an ideal position. I explained that position.

You demanded proof that what I suggested was in fact an ideal position.
You refused to acknowledge that men and women were different (save their genitalia).
Begrudgingly you accepted that men and women were different but not in the context of child rearing.
And you demand proof that men and women are different.

To be honest I’m amazed that you require this proof. While it’s just pedantry on your behalf, here’s one link to one paper on the differences: http://www.oregoncounseling.org/ArticlesPapers/Documents/DifferencesMenWomen.htm

There is a wealth of information out there for those who are actually interested, but I’ve no doubt that none of this will be acceptable for you.

You've missed the point. It's not a question of "things one sex offer that the other can not" but things both sexes can offer that one can't.

I can, and have: personal experience.

All experience is relevant in raising a child.
To suggest the personal experience of a parent is irrelavent to the raising of their child is a little bazaar.

So you would admit that the personal experience of the parent is relevant in raising their child?

Also, while I feel it's very much intentional, in the off chance it's not, your tone is quite aggressive. Care to tone it down? There is no reason we all can't be polite.

All I did was ask you to be polite. Do worry about it if you don't want to. I've been nothing but polite over the past few days, and I apologise if I was rude earlier in the thread.

Now in fairness, you suggest I'm not answering your questions, but I am. And in fairness, in my last post I asked you a question, which you didn't answer.

Do you believe that the personal experience of the parent is relevant in raising their child? I ask this as "personal experience" was an answer I gave you, but I got the distinct impression that wasn't acceptable to you. You wanted specific examples, no? (BTW, I didn't realise this was something you were saying all along - so was I, how interesting)

Oh and don't call me a troll please, it's rude.

Please cease namecalling and personalised attacks.

Attack the post, not the poster.

Next time is bans.

Zulu,

I do not know how you determine this as it is not my position in the first place. It is YOU telling ME that there are experiences relevant that can only be obtained in the “ideal” configuration. If this is your position then give me examples of the experiences you mean and tell me how YOU evaluate what is relevant.

It is not for me to explain you position for you, I am the one who is trying to understand what it is you are telling us on here.

EVERYONE is different. Therefore ANY two people will have a broad range of experiences. You say this yourself “each person has a different experience of life, as they live different lives”. This supports a two parent family only, not a two parent family of any particular configuration of sexes. In fact if you were to follow your own reasoning to its conclusion you are actually arguing that three parent family would be better again, and a four again, and so on as the more parents in the family configuration the more experiences being brought to the table. This argument makes an absurdity of itself therefore as “the broadest experience” would come from the broadest number of participants. Your own words followed to their conclusion. Question: Do you personally support polygamy, as you have provided a very good argument for it here whether intentionally or not.

The question therefore is if there are any experiences relevant which one couple can have that another can not. Since neither of us can think of any, it appears to be entirely irrelevant and your entire premise of this “ideal” falls apart as you have offered literally nothing to support it.

However if you are “not bothered” to seek evidence for your own positions as you say here then I think this says more about it than I can, or would. You have said everything for me and unless you do come up with something new, I have nothing more to learn from you on this topic and I can only thank you for your time thus far.

You clearly decided to ignore Zenith above by commenting on manners. I will not reply to this part of your post as I respect the moderators wishes and will let that aspect of the conversation drop.

I still can not find you answering the question I asked you. Are you aware of ANY experience one sex can have that the other can not that is relevant to child rearing?

I never said it mattered, but one way to check if you are understanding a persons position is to check if you understand the inferences of it, and you have made what could be seen as a stronger argument for polygamy in a childs upbringing than you have for a 2 sex 2 person configuration.

Since I can not find you explaining your own position very well can I see if I have it right so far? Correct me if I am wrong on any of the following:

Since there are some experiences that are relevant when coming to bringing up children, you wish to give the child the most broad range of experiences possible ‘just in case’ some of them are relevant. To this end you think that a 2 sex parental configuration ‘just in case’ there is one or more experiences that one sex can have that ‘might’ be relevant, despite the fact that after weeks of asking you are entirely unable to name even one and hence your entire position is based on a ‘maybe’ or hedge betting of a sort.

Would this be an accurate assessment? If so then there is little else to discuss as I reject the assertion based on the fact that it’s all based on an unsupported maybe which you are completely unable to establish as even approaching fact, but at least I understand your position and why I reject it. I do not reach my conclusions based on maybes, I reach them based on what we know to be true.

My own position on child upbringing is that all a child needs is: Education, security, nurture, love and safety. I see nothing in a 2 or 1 sex configuration of 2 parents that can provide any of these in a more “ideal” fashion than the other, nor have you offered me any. So that appears to be that in terms of what is available to be learnt from this discussion and there is nowhere it can go from here.

Should you find yourself capable at any time of actually putting forth an example of one such relevant experience I do hope you return to the thread as it would allow the conversation to proceed past this point, as there would then be some actual evidence for your assertions. I wait agog to hear from you on this matter in the future.

Again, you've missed the point. What is "ideal" and what a child "needs" are different.

You accuse me of putting words in your mouth; of telling you your position, and yet you do exactly that to me. Would you not extend that courtesy to me also? And no, your assessment of my position is inaccurate.

I've explained my position here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62215481&postcount=109
That post also includes examples of the "relevant experience" you continue to request & ignore. (Post number 109)

Please note two examples highlighted in red:

Zulu wrote: »

How do you determine which personal experiences are not relevant though? You can't, as you can't predict what will happen during a childs life. Hence as broad an experience as possible is "ideal".

The fact that men & women are different (see linked document as sample evidence of this) implies that their experience of life differs. This is a logical assumption, which you are free to dispute. I am not bothered to search for evidence of this, however, generally people will accept that each person has a different experience of life, as they live different lives. If men and women perceive the world differently, as is suggested in the linked document, then it's reasonably safe to conclude that their experiences differ. The experiences of puberty is an example of one thing that will differ greatly between men and women. Actively engaging in society and social circles is another.

Now if we are talking about ideals, I'm suggesting that the broadest experience is ideal, and the combination of both sexes would suggest the broadest experience.

On the subject of manners, you continue to call me a troll, and that's rude. In the past few days, I've been nothing but polite & I've answered your questions again, and again as I have here again. I might suggest that because you don't like an answer I've provided doesn't make it any less of an answer.

Oh dear. Men and women experience puberty differently. That's simply a fact of nature. A man will not have the experience a woman will have of her first period or of pregnanacy.

Men and women engage in society differently. A group of 13 year old boys behave differently to a group of 13 year old girls.

Again, being equal doesn't mean we are all the same. Men and women are different (see evidence provided) but equal. I never suggested otherwise.

This is going round in circles so quick I'm getting sick!

See:

Zulu wrote: »

Again, you've missed the point. What is "ideal" and what a child "needs" are different.