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Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

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Comments

  • #2282
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    O'Morris wrote: »
    I think it's obvious why the EUers wouldn't want to punish Ireland for voting the wrong way. The other governments of the EU have absolutely nothing to gain by punishing or isolating Ireland for voting no to the Lisbon treaty. They do have a lot to lose from behaving spitefully towards Ireland as that will almost certainty lead to a eurosceptic backlash in Ireland and in the rest of the EU. The EUers need the goodwill of the Irish political establishment and the Irish electorate. They're not going to jeopardise that by reacting spitefully.

    It's not about them actively screwing us over, it's about when we need a favour them not being inclined to grant it. It's not spite, and this is the problem. They don't need to actively isolate and punish Ireland for us to lose valuable influence, there just needs to be a few more doors closed when we need to beg a favour.


  • #2283
    FutureTaoiseach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭FutureTaoiseach


    The boards.ie poll was extremely accurate last time around. Fingers-crossed.


  • #2284
    dickmolan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24 ✭dickmolan


    noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo


  • #2285
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    FutureTaoiseach wrote: »
    The boards.ie poll was extremely accurate last time around. Fingers-crossed.

    We shall see. There have been alot of people around with multiple online personalitity disorder recently though.


  • #2286
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    marco_polo wrote: »
    We shall see. There have been alot of people around with multiple online personalitity disorder recently though.

    an only 2 characters on their keyboards apparently


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  • #2287
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    dickmolan wrote: »
    noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    an only 2 characters on their keyboards apparently


    One of which appears to be broken :)


  • #2288
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,698 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    dickmolan wrote: »
    noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
    ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

    you know I thought for a second that this was a comment about the return of futuretaoiseacht in the post above this...


    :D

    i am sad it turns out I might be mistaken.


  • #2289
    That_Guy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,342 ✭✭✭✭That_Guy


    I'll vote the same way I did the last time. No.
    Why we have to vote again is beyond me.

    Democratic country my ass.


  • #2290
    Dinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    That_Guy wrote: »
    I'll vote the same way I did the last time. No.
    Why we have to vote again is beyond me.

    Democratic country my ass.

    Because the concerns discovered by the government have been addressed.


  • #2291
    FutureTaoiseach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭FutureTaoiseach


    That_Guy wrote: »
    I'll vote the same way I did the last time. No.
    Why we have to vote again is beyond me.

    Democratic country my ass.
    How do you think it will go That_Guy?
    Dinner wrote:
    Because the concerns discovered by the government have been addressed
    It is for the Irish people to decide whether they believe the government's word on the guarantees. From what I can see, the Government ignored other concerns mentioned in the research such as fear of domination by large countries and loss of power. They have decided to concentrate on single-issues. My issue was the Charter and as such, I will vote no again. I have other concerns, but this is the big one. I would have reconsidered my original no vote had they removed the Charter. Senator Eugene Regan suggested it in the Irish Times after Lisbon I. But no - the government decided that would scare off the unions. As if the unions were fully behind them in the first place. SIPTU was playing hard to get in that campaign, yet they think they owe them something. And even then, the second-largest union UNITE, and the TEEU are not convinced. I would compare it to someone cutting off their nose despite their face.


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  • #2292
    That_Guy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,342 ✭✭✭✭That_Guy


    FutureTaoiseach wrote: »
    How do you think it will go That_Guy?

    Honestly I don't know. I've not gotten any sort of leaflet containing information yet so I can't make an informed decision until I receive this information.

    So in the meantime I'm voting no.


  • #2293
    Dinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    FutureTaoiseach wrote: »
    It is for the Irish people to decide whether they believe the government's word on the guarantees.

    Hence the second referendum...


  • #2294
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Dinner wrote: »
    Because the concerns of the people discovered by the democratically elected government have been democratically addressed by offering a democratic vote.

    let me correct that for you


  • #2295
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    That_Guy wrote: »
    ...I can't make an informed decision until I receive this information.

    So in the meantime I'm voting no.
    You can't make an informed decision, so you're making an uninformed decision?

    Inspired.


  • #2296
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    FutureTaoiseach wrote: »
    How do you think it will go That_Guy?It is for the Irish people to decide whether they believe the government's word on the guarantees. From what I can see, the Government ignored other concerns mentioned in the research such as fear of domination by large countries and loss of power. They have decided to concentrate on single-issues. My issue was the Charter and as such, I will vote no again. I have other concerns, but this is the big one. I would have reconsidered my original no vote had they removed the Charter. Senator Eugene Regan suggested it in the Irish Times after Lisbon I. But no - the government decided that would scare off the unions. As if the unions were fully behind them in the first place. SIPTU was playing hard to get in that campaign, yet they think they owe them something. And even then, the second-largest union UNITE, and the TEEU are not convinced. I would compare it to someone cutting off their nose despite their face.

    They don't have take the Governments word on the guarantees, the decisions are legally binding as you well know.


  • #2297
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    That_Guy wrote: »
    Honestly I don't know. I've not gotten any sort of leaflet containing information yet so I can't make an informed decision until I receive this information.

    So in the meantime I'm voting no.


    seems you have the internet

    download it here

    http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty_guide.pdf

    once you read that heres the extended leaflet

    http://www.lisbontreaty2009.ie/lisbon_treaty_extended_guide.pdf



    do you really need to be spoon fed in order to participate in a democracy?


  • #2298
    That_Guy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 51,342 ✭✭✭✭That_Guy


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    You can't make an informed decision, so you're making an uninformed decision?

    Inspired.

    By voting no nothing can change or should change if what I've read is to be believed so no is my safe option.

    I need neutral information instead of yes voters telling me one thing and no voters telling me one thing.

    All I want is information telling me basically what will happen if I vote yes and what will happen if I vote no.


  • #2299
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    That_Guy wrote: »
    I need neutral information instead of yes voters telling me one thing and no voters telling me one thing.

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=62048752&postcount=2297

    referendum commission are neutral, so read above then



    That_Guy wrote: »
    By voting no nothing can change or should change if what I've read is to be believed so no is my safe option.

    read this so
    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055677049


  • #2300
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    FutureTaoiseach wrote: »
    The boards.ie poll was extremely accurate last time around. Fingers-crossed.

    God No. The last General Election we had, our poll on here had FG and Labour winning by a very large margin!

    Unfortunately polls on both boards.ie and politics.ie aren't very representative of the people. I'd love if they were but we're mostly populated with people who are far more engaged with the political process than the mainstream (i.e. even bothering to check out a political debate website is enough to mark you as such).


  • #2301
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,698 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    By voting no nothing can change or should change if what I've read is to be believed so no is my safe option.

    except of course we lose our commissioner if we vote no.

    but thats not an issue of course...


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  • #2302
    meditraitor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,207 ✭✭✭meditraitor


    Jesus, I hope this poll isnt reflective of the popular opinion. I am voting yes because I believe Europe has been good to little old Ireland..... and the treaty is basically giving more power to the member states because as a group we will be stronger and more likely to be able to determine economic policies to stop another meltdown which is the sole fault of American style Capitalism.

    Yes boys and girls........ that is the reason this treaty is being proposed.

    Do you want a world with american values forced on it or do you want self determination. Ive always believed america is the devil:pac: (well not really but they are driven by money and not morals/ethics, if you have no money then your fooked).

    Only a powerfull union of decent european countries with decent european values can stop the downward spiral.

    Call me xenaphobic


  • #2303
    FutureTaoiseach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭FutureTaoiseach


    Dinner wrote: »
    Hence the second referendum...
    I would be of the view that the guarantees should have been attached to the Treaty, and that the year and a half since Lisbon I was more than enough time for that to happen. They didn't need to wait till the last minute to negotiate 'guarantees'. The Treaties are the basic law of the Union. Paul Anthony McDermott claimed on Questions and Answers around the time the guarantees began to appear in the press that they were "meaningless" because if you wanted to sue on the basis of them, the ECJ would ask "what part of the Treaties are you sueing on?". I share that view.
    meditraitor wrote:
    Do you want a world with american values forced on it or do you want self determination. Ive always believed america is the devil (well not really but they are driven by money and not morals/ethics, if you have no money then your fooked).
    I don't want the EU to become some sort of rival to the US if that's what you are getting at. I have misgivings about both America and the EU politically speaking. We don't have to choose between Boston and Berlin. We can be on good terms with both.
    Jesus, I hope this poll isnt reflective of the popular opinion.
    Well with all the media other than the Murdoch press on your side, the yes side should be running away with this referendum. Maybe it's just that many Irish people get suspicious when they see the powerful people in society closing ranks, as it evokes bad memories in Irish history.


  • #2304
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    FutureTaoiseach wrote: »
    I would be of the view that the guarantees should have been attached to the Treaty, and that the year and a half since Lisbon I was more than enough time for that to happen. They didn't need to wait till the last minute to negotiate 'guarantees'. The Treaties are the basic law of the Union. Paul Anthony McDermott claimed on Questions and Answers around the time the guarantees began to appear in the press that they were "meaningless" because if you wanted to sue on the basis of them, the ECJ would ask "what part of the Treaties are you sueing on?". I share that view.I don't want the EU to become some sort of rival to the US if that's what you are getting at. I have misgivings about both America and the EU politically speaking. We don't have to choose between Boston and Berlin. We can be on good terms with both.Well with all the media other than the Murdoch press on your side, your side should be running away with this referendum.

    so the guarantees given to the Danes before when they voted second time in a referendum weren't legally binding?

    come on no need to ignore history now


  • #2305
    FutureTaoiseach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭FutureTaoiseach


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    so the guarantees given to the Danes before when they voted second time in a referendum weren't legally binding?

    come on no need to ignore history now
    Well they certainly were when they were included as Protocols. But there was an important difference. The Danes were literally given specific optouts, including the euro, the CFSP, judicial cooperation and European citizenship. That isn't happening for us.


  • #2306
    bogman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,327 ✭✭✭bogman


    Same way as I voted before........NO
    How dare they present the Irish voter with this again after we voted no the last time


  • #2307
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    bogman wrote: »
    Same way as I voted before........NO
    How dare they present the Irish voter with this again after we voted no the last time

    perhaps you should go and read Bunreacht na hÉireann

    see here

    http://www.constitution.ie/constitution-of-ireland/default.asp

    or here

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland


  • #2308
    FutureTaoiseach
    Closed Accounts Posts: 619 ✭✭✭FutureTaoiseach


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    perhaps you should go and read Bunreacht na hÉireann

    see here

    http://www.constitution.ie/constitution-of-ireland/default.asp

    or here

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ireland
    Yes. The Government is legally entitled to do this. But in the eyes of many voters including myself, it isn't morally entitled to do so. I wanted changes to the Treaty and if I am representative of the no voters then the government has a fight on its hands. And I have a feeling that I am, because I voted yes to the 3 previous EU referenda before Lisbon and was therefore one of the 364,000 switchers. I am the kind of no voter the yes side needs.


  • #2309
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    FutureTaoiseach wrote: »
    Yes. The Government is legally entitled to do this. But in the eyes of many voters including myself, it isn't morally entitled to do so. I wanted changes to the Treaty and if I am representative of the no voters then the government has a fight on its hands. And I have a feeling that I am, because I voted yes to the 3 previous EU referenda before Lisbon and was therefore one of the 364,000 switchers. I am the kind of no voter the yes side needs.

    once again FT

    the Danes were given binding agreements which haven't been broken, in their second referendum on a EU treaty

    see

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edinburgh_Agreement

    and

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danish_Maastricht_Treaty_referendum,_1993


    here we have clear historic precedent


  • #2310
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    FutureTaoiseach wrote: »
    Well they certainly were when they were included as Protocols. But there was an important difference. The Danes were literally given specific optouts, including the euro, the CFSP, judicial cooperation and European citizenship. That isn't happening for us.

    That is not an important distinction at all.


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  • #2311
    Caught
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 202 ✭✭Caught


    Saying yes will just throw away our freedom. We probably would never get it back in this lifetime. So if I could vote, it would be no. They arent gonna make new jobs or atin else they are promising. If the EU really cared about us, would they not already be helping us?

    People fought for our freedom, dont throw it away... Well then again, Cowen is in charge. :P


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