Anti-condom letter in Examiner

thebigcheese22 · 09-09-2009 10:53PM #1

I saw this letter in the Examiner today and I nearly spat out my coffee...

http://www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/letters/insulting-photo-100456.html

I WISH to register my disgust and objections to your front page photograph of condoms at a graduation ball (September 3).

It was an insult to many of your readers and very poor example to our young people. No wonder standards of morality and decency have fallen so low in our society today.

At a time when there are so many national and international problems in our world one would have expected a national newspaper to devote front page coverage to them.

Sr Annunciate Forde
Presentation Convent
Pearse Road
Ballyphehane
Cork

I really thought we as a society was past all this kind of bull**** but apparantly the nuns still have a problem. Never mind what ye may think about the story, the 'Sister' seems to have a problem with the mere image of a condom. A 'poor example to our young people' is to try and criticise contraception for crazy ideological purposes, not encouraging safe sex.

Apologies if it seems like I'm trolling or something but this issue just befuddles me, and I'd appreciate if you let me know your opinions, as Christians. Why is the Church so against contraception, except for the fact that it would be admitting they got it so wrong? With the pertinent AID's issue in Africa, surely it is time for the Catholic Church to take a brave stand and promote safe sex there, and hell, why not in Ireland too! It just seems wrong to me that these priests and nuns, with no sexual experience, can lecture us mere well-meaning folk on the use of a fairly basic sexual thing like contraception. Surely that letter just shows how out of touch the Hierarchy are?

PDN · 09-09-2009 10:56PM

Writing a letter about a French Letter.

todolist · 09-09-2009 11:07PM

You may not agree with it but she's entitled to her opinion and well done to her for expressing an opinion that will obviously be mocked and ridiculed in the PC Ireland of today.

thebigcheese22 · 09-09-2009 11:16PM

todolist wrote: »

You may not agree with it but she's entitled to her opinion and well done to her for expressing an opinion that will obviously be mocked and ridiculed in the PC Ireland of today.

So if I 'expressed my opinion' that all black people are lazy and scrounging off the dole, then I shouldn't be 'mocked and ridiculed' because the country has gone too 'PC'?

That argument makes no sense, I'm still wrong for making an idiotic claim. If you actually read it without prejudice, she makes no reference to the ethical debate of whether it is moral to give condoms free to 18 year olds (which I thought today was a non-starter really), she just says the sight of a condom in a newspaper is immoral, how does that make sense?

PoleStar · 09-09-2009 11:25PM

It is ideologies such as this that promote the avoidance of condoms in Africa.

In fact one church leader suggested that condoms themselves promoted the spread of AIDS in Africa!

I totally agree with the previous poster.

Had she said that she felt that free condoms at school debs were promoting premarriage "relations" and that she felt this was immoral, then yes, fair play. But this is not what she said.

I guess it will be off to the laundry for those girls

ALincoln · 09-09-2009 11:50PM

Guh?

Using a condom to ensure safe sex and prevent accidental pregnancy is "PC"?

No...

It's sensible!

She will be mocked for condemning something that evidently has so many healthcare benefits. That's what people will ridicule her for. And rightly so.

philologos · 10-09-2009 12:15AM

I agree with her letter. I don't see the need to flaunt liberal sexuality at a debs, put unwarranted pressure on teenagers to have premarital sex, amongst other things.

Just read the article in question:
http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/debs-condoms-responsible-or-reckless-100088.html

chozometroid · 10-09-2009 12:16AM

I don't see what the big deal is. It seems she's disgusted by seeing something so blatantly sexual on the front of her newspaper, as opposed to something more important.
Showing condoms at a graduation ball is not promoting safe sex, it's promoting sex in general, and premarital sex for sure.

ALincoln · 10-09-2009 12:23AM

So your hypothesis is that teenagers see a condom on the front of the newspaper, and therefore think "What to do after the debs? Sex, clearly.".

Silly.

What the newspaper is doing, is acknowledging that teenagers have sex at these events. Rather than burying our collective heads in the sand, it's exponentially better to recognise this reality and promote safe sex.

What you are proposing is the equivalent of covering your ears to blockade something unwanted and shouting "bla bla can't hear you" to drown it out. Ignoring the fact of teenage sex doesn't make it go away. No matter how much religion would like this to be the case.

philologos · 10-09-2009 12:27AM

No, my hypothesis is that the organisers of that event were foolish to hand out condoms on the tables when people ate.

Not all people have a liberal viewpoint towards sexuality, and not all of us want it shoved in our faces.

If people want to have sex, they should know what the case is protection wise. There is no reason why this should have ever happened at any debs.

ALincoln · 10-09-2009 12:36AM

If students didn't have a liberal view regarding sex (although most post Leaving Cert students are over age, so it's not so much a case of being liberal as being normal), they could...

wait for it...

IGNORE THE CONDOM.

Students who did need it to avoid STD/ pregnancy could...

wait for it...

USE THE CONDOM.

It is good that this was in the paper for the following reason:

It provokes debate about sexuality in Ireland. This is a good thing because it has been stifled by Catholic morality for such a long, long time.

How has this benefit been evidenced? By this very thread.

JimiTime · 10-09-2009 12:39AM

There are worst things to see on the front of a newspaper, and if the article was just about what happened at this debs, then so be it. The nun is entitled to her opinion of course, but It certainly wouldn't make me write a strongly worded letter. Its headline seemed to promote the question on whether it was the right or the wrong thing to do at this debs. I think it was the wrong thing to do, but I wouldn't be offended by a Newspaper discussing it

I personally don't see the article being a big deal. I'd have strong opinions on the topic, but the newspaper printing the story is certainly something i wouldn't get riled up about. I mean, promicuity 'is' prevalent in all ages including teens. I don't see any harm in discussing it. Of course, I don't hold the opinion that throwing condoms at people is constructive, but discussing it. Whats the problem?

philologos · 10-09-2009 12:41AM

ALincoln wrote: »

If students didn't have a liberal view regarding sex (although most post Leaving Cert students are over age, so it's not so much a case of being liberal as being normal), they could...

There is a certain pressure involved. When one puts condoms when one eats at a debs meal, it implies that sex is a part and seal of the night. This isn't the case, and I think the woman quite rightfully puts it across that it shouldn't probably be the case.

ALincoln wrote: »

wait for it...

IGNORE THE CONDOM.

To be honest with you. It would annoy me if that were my debs and they were doing that at it. I'd lose a lot of respect for the whole thing. Sexuality isn't really something that should be in peoples faces, but rather it should be a matter between two individuals and them alone.

ALincoln wrote: »

It is good that this was in the paper for the following reason:

It provokes debate about sexuality in Ireland. This is a good thing because it has been stifled by Catholic morality for such a long, long time.

How has this benefit been evidenced? By this very thread.

I think it is bad that it even took place at a debs irrespective of it being in the paper.

It's not just about Catholicism, but about all people who don't want to have sexuality paraded infront of them at every opportunity.

ALincoln · 10-09-2009 12:49AM

Look, no offence, but I think you're approaching this debate from a certain mindset...a mindset of a conservative nature. Conservative is a euphemism for outmoded, by the way. What is important to note is that very, very few teens share your view about confronting sexuality.

In any case, offending a few delicate sensibilities is probably a legitimate trade off for protecting the health of many.

philologos · 10-09-2009 12:54AM

ALincoln wrote: »

Look, no offence, but I think you're approaching this debate from a certain mindset...a mindset of a conservative nature. Conservative is a euphemism for outmoded, by the way. What is important to note is that very, very few teens share your view about confronting sexuality.

In any case, offending a few sensibilities is probably a legitimate trade off for protecting the health of many.

Irrespective of how many teens agree with me, you are asking this question on the Christianity forum. It's highly ridiculous to bring sexuality into public in a debs situation by putting contraceptives on the table. If people are going to do this, they can seek them out themselves.

There is no need to suggest that having sex is an expected part of the debs. Infact, it's highly inappropriate to pressure people like that.

Conservative or liberal does not matter, this is about respect.

ALincoln · 10-09-2009 12:57AM

Where does pressure come into it?

In the same manner that students are not force fed food at the debs (they are at their liberty to reject the appalling soup and that which follows), students are not somehow unreasonably pressured into sex by making condoms available.

I know I'm posting on the Xtian forum, but common sense and Xtianity are not mutually exclusive:

It's a condom on the side, not a gun to the head.

Happily, most teens have a sensible attitude towards sex, unlike the one which most posters seem to have on this forum, I'm sorry to say.

philologos · 10-09-2009 01:04AM

ALincoln wrote: »

Where does pressure come into it?

They are on the table. People end up thinking, "Everyone else is doing it, so shouldn't I". Effectively rushing people into being sexually active. It's an unfair pressure and it shouldn't be involved with it.

ALincoln wrote: »

In the same manner that students are not force fed food at the debs (they are at their liberty to reject the appalling soup and that which follows), students are not somehow unreasonably pressured into sex by making condoms available.

Irrespective, it's totally inappropriate. If people want condoms, they can go get them somewhere else instead of having them shoved in their face. This objection isn't exclusively in relation to the debs, it can be discussed in other circumstances also.

ALincoln wrote: »

I know I'm posting on the Xtian forum, but common sense and Xtianity are not mutually exclusive:

Actually, the Christian position on sexuality makes perfect sense to me. Waiting until marriage instead of having meaningless sexual encounters encourages people to regard intimacy as something special as opposed to a bodily activity like eating or drinking.

ALincoln wrote: »

Happily, most teens have a sensible attitude towards sex, unlike the one which most posters seem to have on this forum, I'm sorry to say.

I don't consider a liberal sexual ideology to be helpful, or sensible in any way. By the by, I'm not much older than these people who would have been at this debs.

JimiTime · 10-09-2009 01:08AM

ALincoln wrote: »

Happily, most teens have a sensible attitude towards sex,

Maybe you should come to the 'lesser' communities of Dublin and see that sense.

unlike the one which most posters seem to have on this forum, I'm sorry to say.

:rolleyes: You hate Christianity, you made that clear on another thread. Its objective morality 'repels' you. Expressing your opinion from your enlightened high horse, talking down to us 'outdated' 'Christ'ians, is just tired mouthing off. IMO, you should be more respectful, as you are just being rude. Do you actually want to engage the locals? Or grind your axe?

ALincoln · 10-09-2009 01:12AM

Jakkass wrote: »

They are on the table. People end up thinking, "Everyone else is doing it, so shouldn't I". Effectively rushing people into being sexually active. It's an unfair pressure and it shouldn't be involved with it.

Irrespective, it's totally inappropriate. If people want condoms, they can go get them somewhere else instead of having them shoved in their face. This objection isn't exclusively in relation to the debs, it can be discussed in other circumstances also.

Actually, the Christian position on sexuality makes perfect sense to me. Waiting until marriage instead of having meaningless sexual encounters encourages people to regard intimacy as something special as opposed to a bodily activity like eating or drinking.

I don't consider a liberal sexual ideology to be helpful, or sensible in any way. By the by, I'm not much older than these people who would have been at this debs.

Oh yeah, you're young are you?

Hmmm...it seems that you've forgotten remarkably quickly the hothouse that is secondary school...if anybody is sexually active, the majority are aware of it. The same is applicable to those who are not sexually active. There's generally no sense of pressure because everybody is already aware of who is engaging in sex and who is not.

Oh but you recently left secondary school, so you already know that...

On the issue of people needing condoms procuring them elsewhere...silly. If they are in plentiful supply, making them available easily and free of charge is clearly the most effective and safe method of distribution.

Finally, you never explained what is inherently wrong with "meaningless sexual encounters"...possibly because there is nothing to say.

ALincoln · 10-09-2009 01:18AM

JimiTime wrote: »

Maybe you should come to the 'lesser' communities of Dublin and see that sense.

:rolleyes: You hate Christianity, you made that clear on another thread. Its objective morality 'repels' you. Expressing your opinion from your enlightened high horse, talking down to us 'outdated' 'Christ'ians, is just tired mouthing off. IMO, you should be more respectful, as you are just rude. Do you actually want to engage the locals? Or grind your axe?

I think your reference to poverty stricken Dublin communities is an absolute disgrace.

For those who claim that Xtianity cherishes the values of understanding and tolerance, you have proven that all the majority can offer is arrogance and arrant hypocrisy.

The rest I will dismiss as stock ad hominem for this forum, as I am an Xtian myself.

For shame.

JimiTime · 10-09-2009 01:26AM

ALincoln wrote: »

I think your reference to poverty stricken Dublin communities is an absolute disgrace.

For those who claim that Xtianity cherishes the values of understanding and tolerance, you have proven that all the majority can offer is arrogance and arrant hypocrisy.

Again, get off your high horse, and stop feigning outrage. You said that 'most teenagers have a sensible view to sex'. I have lived in these 'lesser' communities all my life, and it is quite apparent that alot of teenagers, DO NOT, have a sensible view to sex!

The rest I will dismiss as stock ad hominem for this forum, as I am an Xtian myself.

For shame.

There's nothing 'ad hominem' about what I said. You are rude, and the fact that you described Christianity as: 'adhering to the "word" of an intangible, contested, nebulous doctrine.' I would hazard a guess that you are far removed from Christianity. Also, insisting on replacing Christ with an 'X', does not reveal a respect for the Lord you claim to follow.

So again, are you here to engage in conversation with the local populous, or grind your axe?

cast_iron · 10-09-2009 01:33AM

ALincoln wrote: »

In the same manner that students are not force fed food at the debs (they are at their liberty to reject the appalling soup and that which follows), students are not somehow unreasonably pressured into sex by making condoms available.

Quite simply, it's not in the same manner at all.

In a group of peers (of the age in question), you reject a bowl of soup, and I can't see much of an issue.

In a group of peers (of the age in question), you reject having sex, then it's a bit of an issue come Monday morning when everyone is discussing who did/didn't do what.

Let me assure you, who didn't eat the ghastly soup won't be the talking point.

All I'm saying is it's not quite as blatant an argument as you make it out to be, and you don't seem to understand the peer pressures of the situation. That's regardless of the merits of the argument about condoms.

ALincoln · 10-09-2009 01:34AM

JimiTime wrote: »

Again, get off your high horse, and stop feigning outrage. You said that 'most teenagers have a sensible view to sex'. I have lived in these 'lesser' communities all my life, and it is quite apparent that alot of teenagers, DO NOT, have a sensible view to sex!

There's nothing 'ad hominem' about what I said. You are rude, and the fact that you described Christianity as: 'adhering to the "word" of an intangible, contested, nebulous doctrine.' I would hazard a guess that you are far removed from Christianity. Also, insisting on replacing Christ with an 'X', does not reveal a respect for the Lord you claim to follow.

So again, are you here to engage in conversation with the local populous, or grind your axe?

This post was incredible for a) the vitriol which poured forth, again conveying to the world what a tolerant religion Xtianity...er...is not.

The second thing which somewhat stunned me was your purported knowledge of the sexual activities of inner city Dublin's teenagers. How would you...actually, I don't want to know. I found that aspect of your post quite disturbing. (Not to mention condescending and positively dripping with nauseating faux piety.)

I will spell Xtianity howsoever I choose.

Questioning your religion doen not mean you completely reject it. An enquiring attitude is far healthier than one of blind faith.

All this ad hominen wrangling is getting rather old, you know.

JimiTime · 10-09-2009 01:46AM

ALincoln wrote: »

This post was incredible .

Thanks.

Anyway, Are you here to engage in conversation with the locals, or to grind your axe?

ALincoln · 10-09-2009 01:48AM

cast_iron wrote: »

Quite simply, it's not in the same manner at all.

In a group of peers (of the age in question), you reject a bowl of soup, and I can't see much of an issue.

In a group of peers (of the age in question), you reject having sex, then it's a bit of an issue come Monday morning when everyone is discussing who did/didn't do what.

Let me assure you, who didn't eat the ghastly soup won't be the talking point.

All I'm saying is it's not quite as blatant an argument as you make it out to be, and you don't seem to understand the peer pressures of the situation. That's regardless of the merits of the argument about condoms.

Ok then. Peer pressure is a deeply rooted thing. Consider the following:

People will have had sex before the debs.
Others will know about it.
If they therefore felt under pressure to have sex, they'll have succummbed before the debs.
Peer pressure is a constant under your description - one condom on the side of a table won't make a monumental difference!

ALincoln · 10-09-2009 01:52AM

JimiTime wrote: »

Thanks.

Anyway, Are you here to engage in conversation with the locals, or to grind your axe?

Uh oh, now you're stooping low to cover up your blushes!

Funnily enough, your evocation of "locals" embodies the insular, anti inclusive attitude of many Xtian communities!

Dearest JimiTime, you provide me with much amusement; you are a stereotypical parody of insular, anachronistic Xtianity!

lugha · 10-09-2009 01:55AM

I don’t really have a dog in this fight but I must say I am always somewhat amused at some “liberals” and the manner in which they defend their world view. Or rather, the manner in which they do not! So often their attitude is that their views are so irrefutably valid that it is unnecessary to seriously engage in debate with those who have more conservative views and much of their contribution to any debate largely consists of verbal eye rolling. What amuses me is the suspicion that such folk, with their utterly intolerance of any alternative view, differ very little in mindset from those from decades past, who would insist that a puritanical attitude to sexual matters was universally and unquestionably a good thing. Same animals, nothing added but time IMO!

JimiTime · 10-09-2009 01:57AM

ALincoln wrote: »

Uh oh, now you're stooping low to cover up your blushes!

Funnily enough, your evocation of "locals" embodies the insular, anti inclusive attitude of many Xtian communities!

Dearest JimiTime, you provide me with much amusement; you are a stereotypical parody of insular, anachronistic Xtianity!

So thats an axe to grind then. Well at least we know where we stand. If you actually want to converse with folk though, you'd do better to avoid the jibes like the one that started this little tete a tete.

ALincoln · 10-09-2009 01:58AM

So what you're saying is that liberals are merely a later incarnation of animals?

How clever...

wait...

Xtianity sort of rejects evolution!

Oops! Impaled upon your own sword, nothing worse

ALincoln · 10-09-2009 01:59AM

JimiTime wrote: »

So thats an axe to grind then. Well at least we know where we stand.

Nope, don't think I mentioned it, sorry Jims!

JimiTime · 10-09-2009 02:03AM

ALincoln wrote: »

So what you're saying is that liberals are merely a later incarnation of animals?

How clever...

wait...

Xtianity sort of rejects evolution!

Oops! Impaled upon your own sword, nothing worse

Except he's not a Christian.

Why don't you calm down, and decide if you want to have meaningful discussion in this forum. Constantly making Jibes against Christianity is not condusive to having a meaningful discussion with Christians.

Anti-condom letter in Examiner

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