Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

Far Corfe wrote: »

Spains economy has tanked and its unemployment rocketed since being the only country to vote in favor of the euro con therefore so much for the "Yes-for the economy" rubbish.

YEP, voting Yes for something that never came into existence caused Unemployment.

RandomName2 wrote: »

I believe we elect people.

I may be wrong.

But I seem to remeber some elections to our national legislature...

There is an upper house, as well, to be sure. Which is also mostly directly elected. And even then, it is very weak in comparison to the Dail.

The ministerial positions in government are not directly decided by the public, but they are indirectly decided. This, is perhaps, a flaw in the the Irish electoral system, but not a big issue either way.

Emm... even the President is elected by popular vote...

So... no direct control. I was obviously 'mistaken'.

We elect TDs. We don't elect Taiosigh, Ministers or any other position. I find it frankly bizarre that you can have no problems with a Minister of Finance being selected by a Taioseach yet have problems with said Taioseach selecting our Commissioner.

I mean, what drives you to have a problem with this? Are you merely justifying some anti-EU sentiment by drawing random lines in the sand where the EU is?

freyners wrote: »

can someone please clear up article 3111 to me, does it or does it not give the eu power to impose an eu tax????

From my reading of it and seeing debate on it, it is no different from the current situation.

Where do you think the EU gets the money to give us subsidies?

whatisayis wrote: »

I voted No last year. If someone could actually show me the Article in the Treaty that states Ireland will be at the heart of Europe, I might consider voting yes this time.

My plan here is to make something up which more than likely will have nothing to do with the EU and then whine about it a lot. Never let it be said I haven't learned anything from the No side. I'll be back soon with my new account to back that up.

freyners wrote: »

can someone please clear up article 3111 to me, does it or does it not give the eu power to impose an eu tax????

Absolutely not.

The only power that the EU has is in relation to indirect tax, better known as VAT.
Why does the EU have power over VAT? Because in order to ensure a free markets between the countries, they need to be able to stop people from putting on trade tariffs. England, for example, couldn't put a tax on Irish beef, and if they tried, the EU could stop it.

Direct Taxation, such as income tax, PRSI, corporate tax, is something the EU has no power to do anything with.

Here's the Article below:

Article 113: The Council shall, acting unanimously in accordance with a special legislative procedure and after consulting the European Parliament and the Economic and Social Committee, adopt provisions for the harmonisation of legislation concerning turnover taxes, excise duties and other forms of indirect taxation to the extent that such harmonisation is necessary to ensure the establishment and the functioning of the internal market and to avoid distortion of competition.

Any change to this Article would have to occur through Article 94. This Article is also listed below, and it explains clearly that any change must be done by Veto. That means the Irish Governmemt can tell anyone (and have done in the past) that they do not want to do this. At which point, this is the end of the matter.

Article 115: Without prejudice to Article 114, the Council shall, acting unanimously [i.e. VETO] in accordance with a special legislative procedure and after consulting the European Parliament and the Economic and Social Committee, issue directives for the approximation of such laws, regulations or administrative provisions of the Member States as directly affect the establishment or functioning of the internal market.

freyners wrote: »

can someone please clear up article 3111 to me, does it or does it not give the eu power to impose an eu tax????

This is 311:

Article 311 (ex Article 269 TEC) The Union shall provide itself with the means necessary to attain its objectives and carry through its policies. Without prejudice to other revenue, the budget shall be financed wholly from own resources. The Council, acting in accordance with a special legislative procedure, shall unanimously and after consulting the European Parliament adopt a decision laying down the provisions relating to the system of own resources of the Union. In this context it may establish new categories of own resources or abolish an existing category. That decision shall not enter into force until it is approved by the Member States in accordance with their respective constitutional requirements. The Council, acting by means of regulations in accordance with a special legislative procedure, shall lay down implementing measures for the Union's own resources system in so far as this is provided for in the decision adopted on the basis of the third paragraph. The Council shall act after obtaining the consent of the European Parliament.

The worry is supposed to be the bit in red, which has been claimed to allow the EU to introduce new taxes.

It doesn't - it allows the member states (hence "the Council...acting unanimously") to give the EU new sources of income, or abolish existing ones, with every single country having a veto, and every government needing still to ratify the change through its parliament. The member states have that power already - they gave the EU its existing sources of income in the first place.

The EU, unsurprisingly, is not allowed to vote itself (the Commission or Parliament) new income sources.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Rb wrote: »

After seeing Fianna Fail's "Yes To Lisbon" posters and the scaremongering BS written on it, I've looking forward more than ever to ticking No on the day.

Those poster are pretty poor. But if you're voting based on 'scaremongering BS' then I'd suggest that you should be voting Yes. I was about to say that just about every No poster I've seen is BS but now that I've thought about it all of the No posters I've seen have been BS.

Do you honestly not see how hypocritical your post is?

OsciiBoscii wrote: »

No.
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/centreright/2009/09/one-hundred-reasons-why-ireland-should-say-no-again-to-lisbon.html?cid=6a00d83451b31c69e20120a59297f7970c

Amazing how people have such faith in a Tory website.

Amazing how people are going along with wishes of the UK Independance party, thought Coír and Sinn Fein were bad enough

Rb wrote: »

Those posters also nullify the "Don't vote for non-document reasons" mantra of the "Yes" side that we've been hearing since Lisbon 1, which is great.

It really, really doesn't.

Idiots plus idiots = ... everyone's great? Awesomeness.