Cyprus vs. Republic of Ireland - 05/09/09 [mod warning post #293]

dogpile · 06-09-2009 10:14AM

That_Guy wrote: »

. There's not one game I can say that we gave our all in because there's none that springs to mind.

Italy away was a top performance granted against 10 men for the most part...but our midfielders got on the ball and played some nice stuff, even Gibson when he came on looked more like the Manu player than previously

Boskowski · 06-09-2009 10:32AM

I'm saying this from the perspective of a neutral who is very sympathetic with Ireland (because he's living here).

I can't believe all the negativity here from the 'pundits'.

To all you people who are saying that your team was awful. I don't think they were. And also, what the hell do you expect them to be? In international soccer terms they are a bunch of below average players with a few exceptions. The few exceptions are average players. The one player who is truly above average is, well, in goal. Could be worse.

So luckily you got a great manager with an awful lot of international experience and he decides to play to a system. Rather than to playing players. Which he believes is the only way he's going to get the results. But of course you all know better. Because you're confusing McGeady and Reid with Ribery and Deco. There may have been a phase in Irish football where we had more than a few real players, but the current phase isn't it.

I'll tell you what Trappatoni thinks would happen if he starts playing players. We would look better occasionally in midlfield and we would have the odd freekick that looks as if it was close. But there'd be no shape to the defense, the work rate 'back' from the midfield would be insufficient and we would be losing the matches.

Thinking that Ireland should be eye to eye with the big boys (e.g. Italy) in terms of playing abilities is foolish. On the day and when things are going well, sure, why not. But overall the approach is to grind away and make the best of it.

And I think the squad is actually doing quite a good job at that. So enjoy what you have, you're most likely going to go to the world cup. How bad.

dogpile · 06-09-2009 10:44AM

TheGreenGiant wrote: »

. And hopefully Trap will see that Andy has gotten a lot fitter and is playing really well.

Tuesday would have been the ideal opportunity to try something else out in midfield as was the last game in Limerick but he has no one else in the squad...Carsley/A. Reid or McAnn or even give James McArthy a run out but no what we'll probably see is the "big2" rested and a pairing of Miller/Gibson....what you'll get out of that is anybodies guess

shane86 · 06-09-2009 11:52AM

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

, dodgy penalty at home to Georgia, p

While some of it was luck tbh the ref gave us that peno as compo for the bizarre ruled out Andrews goal. Offside my left one.

eirebhoy · 06-09-2009 01:57PM

Dunne was very dodgy but also produced more good contributions than the other 3 defenders combined. O'Shea was just dodgy full stop. I hope Dunne just needs to lose a few pounds because he didn't look the player that was literally too quick for Vucinic.

Terrible performance imo. I don't know what Trap is thinking with this long ball lark. Dunne hardly ever punts it long at club level since Sven was his manager and he was doing it more often than not last night. No matter what Trap says that's not down to the players that's down to him. I'll take any win at this moment in time but he really needs to sort it out after the Montenegro game.

S.Reid is vital to us. The football against Norway, Georgia and Montenegro with him in the team was good on the eye.

On a positive note Doyle was fantastic last night. Should have been motm. What a brilliant save from Given after our first goal too.

LuckyLloyd · 06-09-2009 02:00PM

realcam wrote: »

I'm saying this from the perspective of a neutral who is very sympathetic with Ireland (because he's living here).

I can't believe all the negativity here from the 'pundits'.

To all you people who are saying that your team was awful. I don't think they were. And also, what the hell do you expect them to be? In international soccer terms they are a bunch of below average players with a few exceptions. The few exceptions are average players. The one player who is truly above average is, well, in goal. Could be worse.

So luckily you got a great manager with an awful lot of international experience and he decides to play to a system. Rather than to playing players. Which he believes is the only way he's going to get the results. But of course you all know better. Because you're confusing McGeady and Reid with Ribery and Deco. There may have been a phase in Irish football where we had more than a few real players, but the current phase isn't it.

I'll tell you what Trappatoni thinks would happen if he starts playing players. We would look better occasionally in midlfield and we would have the odd freekick that looks as if it was close. But there'd be no shape to the defense, the work rate 'back' from the midfield would be insufficient and we would be losing the matches.

Thinking that Ireland should be eye to eye with the big boys (e.g. Italy) in terms of playing abilities is foolish. On the day and when things are going well, sure, why not. But overall the approach is to grind away and make the best of it.

And I think the squad is actually doing quite a good job at that. So enjoy what you have, you're most likely going to go to the world cup. How bad.

Well played.

Everyone, if you were asked at the start of this campaign whether you would take the position we are currently in, you would say "yes". This is your team, Whelan, Andrews, Kilbane, warts and all. They may not play good football, but they play tough and dogged and they manage to lift things and find ways to make it happen as the clock runs out (Georgia, Italy, killing the game in Bulgaria and now Cyprus).

Reading through this thread is so sad. Loads of complaining about the man who had scored 4 goals in 7 before the tie, forgetting the nature of his contributions for his down the years (i.e. looking rubbish for long stretches with goals at the crucial moments over and over). Loads of complaining over the inadequacies of our midfield and talk of Steven Ireland (

). YES, they aren't great. We know. But it isn't for the lack of trying. Talk about how Richard Dunne is shakey and past it when he's been a rock all campaign.

Jaysus, come on for ****s sake. Right now, I'm not sure Irish football 'fans' are deserving of a World Cup appearance. I'll tell ya one thing, if you get a ticket for the Italy match you'd want to kop yourself on and go in there ready to scream your ****ing head off, to cheer every little thing the likes of Whelan does right, and make the most noise when we don't have the ball. The team has worked their balls off, pretty or no, to get into this situation. They have earned our support.

eirebhoy · 06-09-2009 02:10PM

For those that don't want to hear any moaning, booing eejits at the next 2 Ireland games please join the singing section. It's a brilliant experience of non stop singing and noise. Great to hear some of the songs belted out last night.

parasite · 06-09-2009 02:32PM

eirebhoy wrote: »

Terrible performance imo. I don't know what Trap is thinking with this long ball lark. Dunne hardly ever punts it long at club level since Sven was his manager and he was doing it more often than not last night. No matter what Trap says that's not down to the players that's down to him.

I don't think it is down to Trap, he was saying after the game how the midfield became fearful, and that they were practising two-touch passing in training, it's hard to know for sure

Xavi6 · 06-09-2009 02:37PM

eirebhoy wrote: »

Dunne hardly ever punts it long at club level since Sven was his manager

Sorry but that's simply untrue.

Great and all a defender that he is, he has always been a long ball merchant.

eirebhoy · 06-09-2009 02:39PM

It's 100% tactics.

We started the Italy game lumping it long. As soon as the Italian got sent off there was hardly a long ball in the entire game until Folan came on. That was a change in tactics. Dunne and O'Shea had a 96% pass success rate in Italy. McShane had a 100% pass success rate. You don't go from that to long ball 50% of the time for anything other than tactics.

eirebhoy · 06-09-2009 02:46PM

Xavi6 wrote: »

Sorry but that's simply untrue.

Great and all a defender that he is, he has always been a long ball merchant.

We talked about this before. Dunne's pass success rate the season before Sven took over was 62%. He has completely changed his game and I'd expect a Man City fan to notice that.

Check it out for yourself, it's easy:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/create

Xavi6 · 06-09-2009 02:49PM

eirebhoy wrote: »

We talked about this before. Dunne's pass success rate the season before Sven took over was 62%. He has completely changed his game and I'd expect a Man City fan to notice that.

Check it out for yourself, it's easy:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/chalkboards/create

How accurate is that though? Sure it has S. Warnock as our number 3

I watch Dunne every week and he likes the long option, always has, and if a manager like Trap gives him the licence to do it then he will.

Vokes · 06-09-2009 02:53PM

I remember being at Craven Cottage for a Fulham v ManC (managed by Sven) game, and Dunner didn't pay a single long ball. I actually specifically remember the quality in his ability to help the team maintain possesion. Was very impressed.

eirebhoy · 06-09-2009 02:53PM

Xavi6 wrote: »

I watch Dunne every week and he likes the long option, always has, and if a manager like Trap gives him the licence to do it then he will.

All I said was "Dunne hardly ever punts it long at club level since Sven was his manager" which is true.

The long punts are down to Trap no matter what he says and the way the Italy game turned out proves that.

Xavi6 · 06-09-2009 02:57PM

eirebhoy wrote: »

All I said was "Dunne hardly ever punts it long at club level since Sven was his manager" which is true.

The long punts are down to Trap no matter what he says and the way the Italy game turned out proves that.

I've spotted a little flaw in that chalkboard.

His long balls would be included under 'clearances' rather than passes. Ok you might say it's a pressure situation or whatever but a hoof is a hoof.

ctrl-alt-delete · 06-09-2009 03:00PM

I really wish people would stop pinning their hopes on S Reid being available for the Italy game, more of a chance of Ireland being back in the centre.

Kirby · 06-09-2009 03:06PM

Xavi6 wrote: »

a hoof is a hoof.

Or As Dunphy would say, "Wooof!"

LuckyLloyd · 06-09-2009 03:08PM

Eirebhoy, a question:

What's wrong with the deliberate use of the long ball tactic if it is getting results? I will agree that under Charlton its use was an opportunity lost, given the players at our disposal during that period. But with the current squad...?

Eire-Dearg · 06-09-2009 03:12PM

If in doubt, **** it out.

eirebhoy · 06-09-2009 03:18PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Eirebhoy, a question:

What's wrong with the deliberate use of the long ball tactic if it is getting results? I will agree that under Charlton its use was an opportunity lost, given the players at our disposal during that period. But with the current squad...?

It's dreadful stuff imo. I don't appreciate teams that play that way and most foreigners wouldn't appreciate our football if we're going to be playing like that at the world cup. As I said, at the moment I don't really care how we play as long as we get to the world cup. But once we get there our performances are more important than the result for me. I just feel strongly about it.

On the betting forums and football forums there are plenty of foreigners talking about the match last night and not very complimentary of Ireland. That's nothing to celebrate for me.

Cyprus coach:
"They didn't play organised football. All they did was try to hit long high balls at us. It was our worst performance, not just in the qualifiers, but for a long time"

LuckyLloyd · 06-09-2009 03:29PM

eirebhoy wrote: »

It's dreadful stuff imo. I don't appreciate teams that play that way and most foreigners wouldn't appreciate our football if we're going to be playing like that at the world cup. As I said, at the moment I don't really care how we play as long as we get to the world cup. But once we get there our performances are more important than the result for me. I just feel strongly about it.

On the betting forums and football forums there are plenty of foreigners talking about the match last night and not very complimentary of Ireland. That's nothing to celebrate for me.

Cyprus coach:
"They didn't play organised football. All they did was try to hit long high balls at us. It was our worst performance, not just in the qualifiers, but for a long time"

Yeah, well it's a very similar attitude to the one Premiership fans have towards the likes of Bolton and Stoke. For me, I really don't care how my teams play once their chosen style affords them the highest probability of winning. Sure, this has not been pretty. But **** me, it works! I couldn't care less how foreigners view our style, and honestly believe that we are maximizing our talent and potential in the qualification process to date.

I can appreciate that some people do have a genuine concern for the quality of football their teams play, and I can see where you're coming from. But I'd take these results, achieved in this manner. Than to be playing nice football and adrift of qualification.

eirebhoy · 06-09-2009 03:35PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I couldn't care less how foreigners view our style

But that to me is what success is all about. The appreciation. Bad football isn't appreciated.

I was happy with how we played in Georgia, Montenegro and Italy. We still got the results (a draw in Montenegro was good imo). The midfielders aren't as bad as they look in Trap's system. Whelan dominated a game against Sunderland just before this game and I'd put him in our top 3 performers in each of those 3 away games I named.

Mikeyt086 · 06-09-2009 03:36PM

I would MUCH rather have foreigners hate us and we be chilling in South Africa next summer, than foreigners thinking we are great but oops we'll get em next time.

Kirby · 06-09-2009 03:46PM

Exactly. I don't agree with trapps selection. I don't agree with the policy towards Morrison, Andy Reid, Stephen Ireland. I don't agree with guys like Laim Miller who don't even have a club being in the squad instead of our promosing youngsters. I don't agree with Kilbane at left back. I don't agree with the midfield two. We don't consciously go for long ball like we did in the Charton era. That was a pre-planned tactic.

But its not this time. Whelan and Andrews simply arent good playmakers. They won't come recieve the ball from the defence. They won't link up with their forwards. Our players are being forced to play the long ball as they have few options. Everything is humped up to doyle, or played down a blind alley on the wing....because we have no class in the middle.

All that stuff is unacceptable. But it wont matter if we qualify. If we get to the world cup after missing the last 3 tournaments.... I'm willing to ignore all that. Ofcourse I would prefer a manager with a bit more ambition and footballing nouse..... but after staunton I am willing to settle for dogged defensive organisation. I want us to be at the World Cup and thats what ultimately matters.

LuckyLloyd · 06-09-2009 03:46PM

eirebhoy wrote: »

But that to me is what success is all about. The appreciation. Bad football isn't appreciated.

I was happy with how we played in Georgia, Montenegro and Italy. We still got the results (a draw in Montenegro was good imo). The midfielders aren't as bad as they look in Trap's system. Whelan dominated a game against Sunderland just before this game and I'd put him in our top 3 performers in each of those 3 away games I named.

Against Georgia and Montenagro we had Steven Reid. And against Italy we were playing against 10 men for most of the game. Those factors significantly altered what the most optimal tactical approach was.

I will agree that Whelan has been good for Stoke (and it is a big part of why he's starting that is frequently overlooked on this board) by times. But if you think about it, Stoke's overall tactical approach really isn't all that different to what we have been doing under Trapp. I'm not sure Whelan is capable of dictating the entire tone and tempo of a game from the middle of the park at that level (or that anyone eligible and fit to play for us is, including Andy Reid).

We played much better football when we got to the World Cup under McCarthy, but we won the central midfield battle every game Keane lined out in because he was the most effective footballer walking the earth at that time. We had such a good platform and solid possession to work with when he was on the pitch. And when he wasn't, Kinsella and Holland were a hell of a lot better than what we are working with now, and achieved parity in the Cameroon, Germany and Spain games.

Now, addressing your first point, that train of thought screams 'moral victory'. I'm quite sure Roy Keane didn't give a **** what Figo, Overmars et al thought about his team's style when he walked off Landsdowne in June and September 2001.

eirebhoy · 06-09-2009 03:57PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

I will agree that Whelan has been good for Stoke (and it is a big part of why he's starting that is frequently overlooked on this board) by times. But if you think about it, Stoke's overall tactical approach really isn't all that different to what we have been doing under Trapp. I'm not sure Whelan is capable of dictating the entire tone and tempo of a game from the middle of the park at that level (or that anyone eligible and fit to play for us is, including Andy Reid).

I think Reid can and has done for Ireland and many times in the premiership. I think Reid in the team for Hunt/McGeady, a bit of a change of system allowing Reid to be a 3rd midfielder, would make a huge difference. We could have the ball on the ground and playing which gets the best out of Whelan as has been shown with his best performances. And Duff, Keane and Doyle would love it too.

We're getting results but tbh we've hardly been the better team in some of the games so luck has been played it's part.

If we only had tall, athletic grafters available to us I could undertstand and would back up the tactics.

LuckyLloyd · 06-09-2009 04:10PM

eirebhoy wrote: »

I think Reid can and has done for Ireland and many times in the premiership. I think Reid in the team for Hunt/McGeady, a bit of a change of system allowing Reid to be a 3rd midfielder, would make a huge difference. We could have the ball on the ground and playing which gets the best out of Whelan as has been shown with his best performances. And Duff, Keane and Doyle would love it too.

We're getting results but tbh we've hardly been the better team in some of the games so luck has been played it's part.

If we only had tall, athletic grafters available to us I could undertstand and would back up the tactics.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree I'm afraid. I think dropping one of Hunt / McGeady for Reid would be bad, given that some of our best stuff comes from the flanks on the break.

I will agree that luck has played its part, no doubt. However, getting the team in these games so that they become close enough for bounces either way to matter feels like progress in the aftermath of the Staunton regime.

Mikeyt086 · 06-09-2009 04:33PM

Reid was exellent when we beat Denmark 4-0 in Copenhagen. He got the ball, moved it, linked up well and played some killer passes. After that game i was expecting him to continue being the focal point of our team.

LuckyLloyd · 06-09-2009 04:38PM

Mikeyt086 wrote: »

Reid was exellent when we beat Denmark 4-0 in Copenhagen. He got the ball, moved it, linked up well and played some killer passes. After that game i was expecting him to continue being the focal point of our team.

Long time ago.

gosplan · 06-09-2009 04:42PM

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

I really wish people would stop pinning their hopes on S Reid being available for the Italy game, more of a chance of Ireland being back in the centre.

Wouldn't say pinning our hopes on the guy but he's the best midfielder currently willing to play for us. He returned two weeks ago but picked up a slight hamstring strain and is expected to be fit again shortly.

He's actually not listed as injured any longer on physioroom.com and fantasy football have him down as 'doubtful' for the coming weekend.

But what about a bet?

I'll put 100 quid on Stephen Reid playing against Italy and you can put 100 quid on the 'better chance' of Ireland playing

Cyprus vs. Republic of Ireland - 05/09/09 [mod warning post #293]

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