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Protestantism & Catholicism

  • 02-09-2009 08:14PM
    #1
    Dr. Baltar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭


    In a thread yesterday, I made the following statement:
    Sir Baralot wrote: »
    The majority of people in this country are de facto Protestants.

    In my opinion, I believe that the majority of people in this country although claiming to be "Catholic" are in fact more closely associated towards Lutheranism or another form of Protestantism.

    I say this because: (and correct me if my definitions are incorrect)

    + Catholicism takes it's beliefs from Jesus, the bible and "God's Representative on Earth" - the Pope aka The Church.

    Where as:

    + Protestants take their beliefs from Jesus and the Bible Only.

    Because the majority of people in this country frequently ignore such papal guidelines of no sex before marriage, no use of condoms no masturbation and other rules that are not found in protestantism I think that in practice most catholics in this country are actually protestants.

    Discuss.


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Comments

  • #2
    prinz
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,598 ✭✭✭✭prinz


    Not in my opinion, á la carte Catholicism does not equal Protestantism. Protestantism does not equal Catholicism-lite. I think you'll find many Protestants agree with your "papal guidelines".


  • #3
    Dr. Baltar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    prinz wrote: »
    Not in my opinion, á la carte Catholicism does not equal Protestantism. Protestantism does not equal Catholicism-lite. I think you'll find many Protestants agree with your "papal guidelines".

    But would you not agree (historically at least) that the main division between Protestantism and Catholicism was one sect believed in the authority of the Pope where as the other didn't?
    In effect a lot of á la carte Catholics are very similar to Lutherans.


  • #4
    Soul Winner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,534 ✭✭✭Soul Winner


    Reminds me of a quote I read on a sig once: "In theory practice and theory are the same but in practice they are not." or something like that.. Yeah most people in this country who say that they are Catholics are not really Catholics because they don't practice Catholicism. Let us assume that Catholicism is the one true way to God. How will most people past muster at the pearly gates with Peter when they tell him that they are Catholic but not a practicing Catholic. I can't imagine that going down too well with Peter for some strange reason, or maybe that's just me. I just can't help but imagine one of his eyebrows raising abruptly on hearing this just as he was about to sign one of these kidders in.


  • #5
    Iwasfrozen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,250 ✭✭✭✭Iwasfrozen


    Sir Baralot wrote: »
    But would you not agree (historically at least) that the main division between Protestantism and Catholicism was one sect believed in the authority of the Pope where as the other didn't?
    In effect a lot of á la carte Catholics are very similar to Lutherans.
    But alot of Prodestants follow your above papal rules in all but name.
    Surly then they are really more Catholic than Prodestant ?


  • #6
    Dr. Baltar
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,252 ✭✭✭Dr. Baltar


    Iwasfrozen wrote: »
    But alot of Prodestants follow your above papal rules in all but name.
    Surly then they are really more Catholic than Prodestant ?

    I would agree with you.
    Lutherans are very similar to á la carte Catholics just like á la carte Catholics are very similar to Lutherans.


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  • #7
    postcynical
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭postcynical


    I agree with Prinz above.

    Whatever about practicing what we believe in, I find many Catholics don't know what our church teaches. Even a fairly committed Catholic (like me) with the freedom to study our church's teachings cannot be expected to know every detail of its teaching. I'm still being fed milk not solid food. What identifies us as Catholic is that by and large we trust that the church's teachings are sound.

    For instance, during Mass Catholics should not be praying the rosary. Yet, it's common to hear the rattle of beads during Mass. Many of us eat meat on Fridays. When we understand why the rule/guideline is there then we wouldn't think of praying the rosary during Mass or eating meat on Fridays, but if we don't understand the reasons for this the rule doesn't make sense, so it's rightly ignored.

    IMO, the important thing is that Catholics try and put Jesus at the centre of their lives. Then the teachings. Then the specifically Catholic traditions. And finally these rules will make sense and be adhered to (or chosen) as a way of honouring God. Irish Catholic teaching is often backwards - learn the rules first and then worry about the spirit. (But this is true of many aspects of Irish education)

    By and large Protestants know what they believe, know why they believe it and practice what they believe. That's not lapsed Catholicism, even if superficially the behaviour can be similar.


  • #8
    postcynical
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭postcynical


    Soul Winner wrote: »
    Reminds me of a quote I read on a sig once: "In theory practice and theory are the same but in practice they are not." or something like that.. Yeah most people in this country who say that they are Catholics are not really Catholics because they don't practice Catholicism. Let us assume that Catholicism is the one true way to God. How will most people past muster at the pearly gates with Peter when they tell him that they are Catholic but not a practicing Catholic. I can't imagine that going down too well with Peter for some strange reason, or maybe that's just me. I just can't help but imagine one of his eyebrows raising abruptly on hearing this just as he was about to sign one of these kidders in.

    Reminds me of Revelation 3:16 ....:eek:
    Rev3:16 wrote:
    So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.


  • #9
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I wouldn't agree that Protestantism is an alacarte form of Christianity. It depends on how conservative or how liberal that form of Protestantism is.


  • #10
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,458 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I wouldn't agree that Protestantism is an alacarte form of Christianity
    Well, in that post of yours which I dredged up last week from a year or two back, you said that you picked your variation of christianity because it suited your interpretation.

    Is that not à-la-carte?


  • #11
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    robindch wrote: »
    Well, in that post of yours which I dredged up last week from a year or two back, you said that you picked your variation of christianity because it suited your interpretation.

    Is that not à-la-carte?

    A year or two back needs to be taken into account too.

    For me it's not so much the question of Anglicanism that is important, but the question of Christianity. I don't share views to everyone in my church (on a global scale), but I determine what I believe from what I find reasonable. You might have remembered the post where I said that my Christianity doesn't always follow strict denominational lines. I.E I find that Anglicanism from the 39 Articles of Religion is relatively consistent with the Biblical text.

    I don't find such a view alacarte because I don't attempt to dismiss any part of the Biblical text. Rather I attempt to understand it as best as I humanly can.

    Quote mining is only so useful.


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  • #12
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,583 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Dr. Baltar wrote: »
    Because the majority of people in this country frequently ignore such papal guidelines of no sex before marriage, no use of condoms no masturbation and other rules that are not found in protestantism I think that in practice most catholics in this country are actually protestants.
    What rules are there specific to protestantism that people do comply with and makes them protestant?


  • #13
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    My experience of protestants in general is that they are better catholics than most catholics in ireland!


  • #14
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    OP. you are totally correct. most mainline Christianity is like Anglicanism. Catholics ignore the Pope, and therefore "Protest" against his teachings. Some very good books on this very subject - in particular in relation to the "Protestantization of Catholicism in America". Will search for the link.


  • #15
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,076 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Most Protestants are catholics, & most Roman Catholics do not abide by the rules of Rome, ergo we are all equal in the eyes of God :) > The Nicene Creed, as practised in the Protestant Church (C of I) included.

    I believe in God, the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

    Catholic = Universal = Christian = Protestant & Roman Catholic.


  • #16
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Dr. Baltar wrote: »
    Because the majority of people in this country frequently ignore such papal guidelines of no sex before marriage, no use of condoms no masturbation and other rules that are not found in protestantism I think that in practice most catholics in this country are actually protestants.

    Discuss.

    I disagree completely. Most casual Catholics think that salvation comes from believing in God, going to mass and getting baptised as a baby. Protestants agree with none of these.

    This issue of salvation is quite fundamental.


  • #17
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    Húrin wrote: »
    Most casual Catholics think that salvation comes from believing in God, going to mass and getting baptised as a baby.

    they dont' really


  • #18
    homer911
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,163 ✭✭✭homer911


    Húrin wrote: »
    I disagree completely. Most casual Catholics think that salvation comes from believing in God, going to mass and getting baptised as a baby. Protestants agree with none of these.

    This issue of salvation is quite fundamental.

    Sorry Húrin, but there are many "Protestants" who would believe just that (substitute Communion for Mass) - you will find them everywhere, just like the parable of the farmer sowing the seed.

    I agree that salvation is fundamental and often the message of salvation is simply not preached in many churches - at least not as I would understand it


  • #19
    Phototoxin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,398 ✭✭✭Phototoxin


    Why do protestants think we need to be saved anyway.. I cannot get my head around that one :confused:


  • #20
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Phototoxin wrote: »
    Why do protestants think we need to be saved anyway.. I cannot get my head around that one :confused:

    All Christians think that we need to be saved because Jesus thought so too.


  • #21
    dogbert27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭dogbert27


    I thought the fundamental differences in the beliefs is that Catholics believe in the immaculate conception where as Protestants don't and that Catholics believe they are actually receiving the body and blood of Christ at Communion where as Protestants believe that the bread and wine are symbols of the body and blood of Christ?


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  • #22
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    dogbert27 wrote: »
    I thought the fundamental differences in the beliefs is that Catholics believe in the immaculate conception where as Protestants don't and that Catholics believe they are actually receiving the body and blood of Christ at Communion where as Protestants believe that the bread and wine are symbols of the body and blood of Christ?

    They are differences, but quite minor ones. The two biggies are salvation by faith alone (sola fide) and the authority of Scripture alone (sola sciptura).

    I can't locate the exact quote, but Martin Luther once said something along the lines of: "Let the Pope concede sola scriptura and sola fide and I will gladly concede everything else and kneel before him."


  • #23
    santing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 671 ✭✭✭santing


    PDN wrote: »
    They are differences, but quite minor ones
    Minor compared to what? Both the immaculate conception and the RC Mass are linked with idolatry and superstition ... The difference may look minor to the casual beholder, but effectively it is the same difference of TRUE vs. FALSE.
    When the new blasphemy law was passed I thought it was sad that these issues do no longer give rise to the outrage they should create.


  • #24
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    santing wrote: »
    Minor compared to what? Both the immaculate conception and the RC Mass are linked with idolatry and superstition ... The difference may look minor to the casual beholder, but effectively it is the same difference of TRUE vs. FALSE.
    When the new blasphemy law was passed I thought it was sad that these issues do no longer give rise to the outrage they should create.

    Minor compared to the authority of Scripture alone and the doctrine of justification by faith.

    Get those two right and the other stuff pretty well becomes unsustainable, because it is based on tradition rather than Scripture. For example, you can change someone's mind on the Immaculate Conception, but they may still hold unbiblical doctrines in a whole host of other areas. But get them to acknowledge sola Scriptura and their belief in the Immaculate Conception will fade away like the morning mist. So, the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception is merely a symptom of a much bigger problem - namely the issue of authority.

    One of the reasons why Protestantism failed so miserably to effect a popular Reformation in Ireland was because they chose to concentrate on the symptoms rather than on the big issues.


  • #25
    santing
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 671 ✭✭✭santing


    PDN wrote: »
    Minor compared to the authority of Scripture alone and the doctrine of justification by faith.

    Get those two right and the other stuff pretty well becomes unsustainable, because it is based on tradition rather than Scripture.
    OK Thanks. But I still wouldn't call them minor :)


  • #26
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    santing wrote: »
    Minor compared to what? Both the immaculate conception and the RC Mass are linked with idolatry and superstition .

    Where does teh superstition and idolatry come into it????


  • #27
    BrianCalgary
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,196 ✭✭✭BrianCalgary


    dogbert27 wrote: »
    I thought the fundamental differences in the beliefs is that Catholics believe in the immaculate conception where as Protestants don't and that Catholics believe they are actually receiving the body and blood of Christ at Communion where as Protestants believe that the bread and wine are symbols of the body and blood of Christ?

    Not so, there are a few different ways to look at communion.
    Catholicism teaches that the bread and wine become the body and blood of Christ.
    Lutherans hold that it changes after ingestion.
    Other commentators would say that Christ is present spiritually within the bread and wine.
    And finally Zwingli argued for symbolism.


  • #28
    hivizman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭hivizman


    PDN wrote: »
    I can't locate the exact quote, but Martin Luther once said something along the lines of: "Let the Pope concede sola scriptura and sola fide and I will gladly concede everything else and kneel before him."

    Looking for the quote (which I couldn't find, so perhaps it's apocryphal), I came across this on the ten differences between Catholics and Protestants, which is probably appropriate for late on Friday night:
    1. Catholics kneel in church; Protestants do not kneel because they have bad knees. 2. Catholics like to light as many candles as possible; Protestants are a bit more conscious of fire-safety. 3. Catholics attend church every Sunday; Protestants take off Sundays during the football season. 4. Catholic priests dress up in costumes; Protestant ministers are more fashion-sensitive. 5. Catholics promote chastity before marriage; Protestants promote the hush-hush policy on sex. 6. Catholics seek aid from the Saints; Protestants are stuck with each other. 7. Catholics are artistic innovators; Protestants are culinary experts. 8. Catholics receive Communion; Protestants are on a diet. 9. Catholics laugh at themselves; Protestants laugh at Catholics. 10. Catholics will go to heaven; Protestants will go to Disney World.


  • #29
    asdasd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,185 ✭✭✭asdasd


    Where does teh superstition and idolatry come into it????

    The terms themselves are bigoted nonsense. If Catholcisism is " superstition and idolatry " then where is Shintiusm, Hindisum, Confusicansism etc?

    It is the (pure) monotheists you have to be scared of, Taleban or Protestantism.

    EDIT: Both groups are iconlastics, for instance the Taleban's opposition to Buddhist statues. But English protestantism take the biscuit in the destruction of what these nutcases call superstition and idolism. Utter fanatics.


  • #30
    wolfsbane
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,980 ✭✭✭wolfsbane


    asdasd wrote: »
    The terms themselves are bigoted nonsense. If Catholcisism is " superstition and idolatry " then where is Shintiusm, Hindisum, Confusicansism etc?

    It is the (pure) monotheists you have to be scared of, Taleban or Protestantism.

    EDIT: Both groups are iconlastics, for instance the Taleban's opposition to Buddhist statues. But English protestantism take the biscuit in the destruction of what these nutcases call superstition and idolism. Utter fanatics.
    I agree that each person should be permitted to worship/venerate the idols of his choice, but the issue is whether such practices can be squared with the teachings of the Bible. Protestants say no. Catholics say their tradition permits it and excuse the Biblical ban by saying it:
    1. applies only to false gods.
    2. and does not cover 'veneration' of idols.

    So it is not bigoted nonsense - it is a sober assessment of a practice any impartial observer could not separate from those of the Hindus or pagan idolaters.


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  • #31
    postcynical
    Closed Accounts Posts: 341 ✭✭postcynical


    PDN wrote: »
    They are differences, but quite minor ones. The two biggies are salvation by faith alone (sola fide) and the authority of Scripture alone (sola sciptura).

    I can't locate the exact quote, but Martin Luther once said something along the lines of: "Let the Pope concede sola scriptura and sola fide and I will gladly concede everything else and kneel before him."

    Well if he still has knees, perhaps Luther is on one knee before the Pope now:
    http://markmzima.xanga.com/682889388/luther%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%99sola-fide%E2%80%99-is-true-said-pope-benedict-xvi/

    *added another source, I presume this is the essay from which all the headlines came.
    http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2008/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20081119_en.html


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