West-By-Bus: A New Group to campaign for bus transport in the West

serfboard · 02-09-2009 01:03PM #1

I have been following with great interest the Western Rail Corridor thread on this forum for quite a while and my views are fairly clear on this issue - I'm against it.

I'm wondering if there are people who live in the West Of Ireland who would be in favour of setting up a new group - it could be called West-By-Bus or West-Off-Track (okay, a bit cheeky I know) - to campaign in favour of the following:

1. The halting of any future plans to develop the Western Rail Corridor north of Athenry, and the scrapping of any plans to develop a Luas in Galway. (I realise that funding will probably not be there for these projects anyway).
2. The commencement as soon as possible of the Gort->Tuam M18/M17 road.
3. The advancement (in so far as possible) of developments to upgrade the M17, particularly from Curry to Collooney.
4. The provision of more Bus lanes in major urban areas in the West (Galway, Limerick, Sligo & Castlebar).
5. The provision of Bus Park & Ride facilities in various strategic locations.
6. Knock Airport to be served by all Galway->Sligo routes.
7. Bus Services to serve Industrial Areas - there is no point in having buses serve town centres if a larger percentage of commuters work in industrial estates. This would not be additional services, but modifications of peak-time routes.
8. The preserving of the Western Rail Route by turning it into a Greenway/Cycleway as has been done in many other parts of the country.

I would be particularly interested to know if people who live in the West would be willing to participate - thus demolishing one of West-On-Track's arguments that anyone opposed to it is "agin the Wesht".

I also think that it might be possible to get certain interests aligned in favour of this proposal - particularly Bus Eireann and the private bus operators.

Zoney · 02-09-2009 01:43PM

It'll take more than a lobby group to get bus lanes in Limerick city. The main arterial routes, particularly O'Connell Ave. (Raheen) and Ennis Road (Caherdavin) are home to the well-heeled who don't wish to lose their on-street parking (or have to park on the other side of the road) and they can ensure councillors won't progress bus route plans. On the Mulgrave St. route some retail interests have ensured nothing happens, and Childer's Road would need expanded to probably 5/6 lanes to allow bus lanes (two plus two for ordinary traffic and 1 or 2 bus lanes).

murphaph · 02-09-2009 02:11PM

Zoney wrote: »

It'll take more than a lobby group to get bus lanes in Limerick city. The main arterial routes, particularly O'Connell Ave. (Raheen) and Ennis Road (Caherdavin) are home to the well-heeled who don't wish to lose their on-street parking (or have to park on the other side of the road) and they can ensure councillors won't progress bus route plans. On the Mulgrave St. route some retail interests have ensured nothing happens, and Childer's Road would need expanded to probably 5/6 lanes to allow bus lanes (two plus two for ordinary traffic and 1 or 2 bus lanes).

These unscrupulous councillors need to be voted off the city council then. Do people in Limerick city use the bus much? Would they use it instead of the car if it had greater priority? It's actually quite disgraceful that Limerick hasn't bothered to build any buslanes. Priorities are obviously wrong.

Serfboard-If you do start a lobby group, better to start with what most people perceive as positives (more bus routes etc.) rather than "we want the (ridiculous) WRC stopped" because people have a VERY short attention span and most are too lazy to read on. They'll see your proposal and immediately condemn you as being an "anti-wesht of Ireland west brit from Dublin" or some other tripe and not read the details. Do what the WoT crowd always do, except instead of saying "Dublin has a DART, we want one" say "Dublin has effective Quality Bus Corridors, why have none been developed in Galway, Limerick, Sligo?"

westtip · 02-09-2009 02:43PM

Lets stay on topic for Serfboard (NOT KNOCKING THE EXCELLENT INPUT FROM MURPHAGH BUT SAYING YES LETS TAKE SOME ALTERNATIVE ACTION TO WOT) - Yes you know my opinions - I am not even a bus user per se but would deffo support your OP as a constitution, and do agree with yoru sentiments re the WRC as a Greenway - for good economic reasons - it will bring money into the wesht. Zoney I can't comment on the detail about the ideas for Limerick, but it sounds like you know what you are talking about - Serf Send me a PM to exchange views.

gunbarrel · 02-09-2009 02:50PM

serfboard wrote: »

I have been following with great interest the Western Rail Corridor thread on this forum for quite a while and my views are fairly clear on this issue - I'm against it.

I'm wondering if there are people who live in the West Of Ireland who would be in favour of setting up a new group - it could be called West-By-Bus or West-Off-Track (okay, a bit cheeky I know) - to campaign in favour of the following:

1. The halting of any future plans to develop the Western Rail Corridor north of Athenry, and the srapping of any plans to develop a Luas in Galway. (I realise that funding will probably not be there for these projects anyway).
2. The commencement as soon as possible of the Gort->Tuam M18/M17 road.
3. The advancement (in so far as possible) of developments to upgrade the M17, particularly from Curry to Collooney.
4. The provision of more Bus lanes in major urban areas in the West (Galway, Limerick, Sligo & Castlebar).
5. The provision of Bus Park & Ride facilities in various strategic locations.
6. Knock Airport to be served by all Galway->Sligo routes.
7. Bus Services to serve Industrial Areas - there is no point in having buses serve town centres if a larger percentage of commuters work in industrial estates. This would not be additional services, but modifications of peak-time routes.
8. The preserving of the Western Rail Route by turning it into a Greenway/Cycleway as has been done in many other parts of the country.

I would be particularly interested to know if people who live in the West would be willing to participate - thus demolishing one of West-On-Track's arguments that anyone opposed to it is "agin the Wesht".

I also think that it might be possible to get certain interests aligned in favour of this proposal - particularly Bus Eireann and the private bus operators.

While I dont live in the West I am certainly supportive of your idea for better bus services in the West. However, I think you should keep such a scheme focused on the issue of buses. If you are anti-WRC then attacking there ideas will only give them cause for propaganda.

I particularly like points 4 through 7. These ideas would substantially improve Public Transport in the West at little cost. Congratulations on your idea and I hope you follow it through as I am sure there will be plenty of support for it.

My knowledge of bus transport in Ireland is not very good as I generally take the train. Are there bus services between Sligo or Mayo and Athlone? If there are could it be suggested that these be re-routed via Knock as well?

Zoney · 02-09-2009 03:10PM

murphaph wrote: »

These unscrupulous councillors need to be voted off the city council then. Do people in Limerick city use the bus much? Would they use it instead of the car if it had greater priority? It's actually quite disgraceful that Limerick hasn't bothered to build any buslanes. Priorities are obviously wrong.

murphaph: how do you suggest the particular ringleaders are voted off when so many of those doing the voting for those particular councillors (i.e. those wards) are the ones who would be inconvenienced by the bus lanes? It's absolutely infuriating, and as for the University - well, sure why would the council have any care about young people who may not even vote and who mostly come from outside Limerick? 10 years ago there was talk of bus lanes for Uni and there still are barely any.

As for who uses the bus? Limerick's geography is both responsible for the traffic problems but also the usefulness of the 3 main bus routes.:

Raheen (every 10 mins):
Dwellers in city centre, Dwellers in Raheen, Schoolkids in Raheen going to city centre, Schoolkids in city centre going to Crescent, Workers in Raheen ind. estate, Workers in city centre, visitor/staff to/from Regional Hospital, shoppers at the Crescent (main shopping centre in Limerick), passengers to/from other routes going to/from Raheen/Hospital/Crescent. Some buses go via bus/rail station but not enough to be useful so not a main destination/source of passengers (unlike Castletroy route despite its stop being much further from the station).

Castletroy (every 15 mins):
Dwellers in city centre, Dwellers in Castletroy, over 10,000 University students/staff/workers, shoppers to/from Parkway/city centre/Childers Road, Plassey Technological park workers, passengers to/from bus/railway station - particularly students, passengers to/from other routes (esp. Raheen route).

Caherdavin (every 20 mins):
Dwellers in city centre, Dwellers in Caherdavin, LIT students/staff, shoppers to/from city centre, Thomond Park visitors, passengers to/from bus/railway station - particularly students, passengers to/from other routes.

Those are the major passengers - all three routes serve people living along the route too (not unusual to have to pick-up/set-down from every single stop).

At rush hour the single-deck buses particularly on the UL route can be so packed with people standing as to have people crammed between the windscreen/doors/driver despite the illegality of that. UL frequency should be higher but there aren't the buses and as it is the traffic disrupts things so much that the every 15 min timetable could be awarded "greatest work of fiction" - waiting 45 mins isn't impossible even outside rush hour. The every 10 mins on Raheen works well most of the day except rush hour. Buses can be pretty full mid-morning or afternoon, half full at the least but often busier if it is wet - and crammed sometimes even mid-afternoon from UL. Sometimes in the evenings they can be sparsely populated (probably due to the last service being something like 11 PM).

I think it's entirely possible that QBCs and double deck buses wouldn't adequately serve Raheen/Castletroy even if they would allow more capacity/frequency than at present.

westtip · 02-09-2009 03:12PM

gunbarrel wrote: »

While I dont live in the West I am certainly supportive of your idea for better bus services in the West. However, I think you should keep such a scheme focused on the issue of buses. If you are anti-WRC then attacking there ideas will only give them cause for propaganda.

?

I think there has to be an element of throwing a "rethink of the WRC" into the melting pot, rather than saying we are against the WRC - to argue coherently and say in your mission statement

Whilst we recognise the value of the WRC, we also recognise the need for focus on the greatest needs of transport infrastucture in the west. The west of Ireland is by nature of its settlement patterns and size of towns very dependent on road transport; and in our view the greater priority for the west must be the Atlantic Road Corridor and the economic benefits it will bring and benefits to both private road users and bus operators and in general to the business activity taking place in the west. To get our bus services moving quickly and efficiently we need to have better roads, adn bus lanes into our major urgan centres -building this better road infastructure will lead to potentially greater critical mass of both economic activity and people living in the west - which may in turn lead to the need for better rail commuter services that could be provided by the Western Rail Corridor. However, until we get that critical mass of people, we believe the WRC, should be shelved, and the alignment of the track be maintained in public ownership as a greenway - for potential future use as a railway. Using the WRC this way will give the alignment of the WRC back to the public to make good use of it now. etc etc

westtip · 02-09-2009 03:16PM

Zoney wrote: »

It'll take more than a lobby group to get bus lanes in Limerick city. ).

well WOT got the Ennis Athenry section of WRC open through pressurised lobbying. So why not have a voice for Transport West (now there's another idea for your branding SERFBOARD.

IN fact on the subject of branding I think WEst on Bus - gives too much credit to West on Track - and the two might get confused or might be considered complimentary, West off track would not be taken seriously and would be ridiculed by West on Track:

Actually even though I have just written it I think Transport West might have a good ring to it in the publics minds, you may well have sown a good seed here Serfboard.

You could even launch the group as A THINK TANK FOR INTEGRATED TRANSPORT PLANNING IN THE WEST OF IRELAND

Chris_533976 · 02-09-2009 04:34PM

Add to that that perhaps Citylinks (or BEs) Galway - Dublin service should stop at Galway airport. Not many would use it at first, but then BEs service to the airport is as good as non existant so it would take a bit to get used to. It would probably only add 5 minutes to the journey and would be very useful.

serfboard · 02-09-2009 04:37PM

murphaph wrote: »

Serfboard-If you do start a lobby group, better to start with what most people perceive as positives (more bus routes etc.) rather than "we want the (ridiculous) WRC stopped" because people have a VERY short attention span and most are too lazy to read on. They'll see your proposal and immediately condemn you as being an "anti-wesht of Ireland west brit from Dublin" or some other tripe and not read the details. Do what the WoT crowd always do, except instead of saying "Dublin has a DART, we want one" say "Dublin has effective Quality Bus Corridors, why have none been developed in Galway, Limerick, Sligo?"

gunbarrel wrote: »

While I dont live in the West I am certainly supportive of your idea for better bus services in the West. However, I think you should keep such a scheme focused on the issue of buses. If you are anti-WRC then attacking there ideas will only give them cause for propaganda.

westtip wrote: »

IN fact on the subject of branding I think WEst on Bus - gives too much credit to West on Track - and the two might get confused or might be considered complimentary, West off track would not be taken seriously and would be ridiculed by West on Track:

Actually even though I have just written it I think Transport West might have a good ring to it in the publics minds, you may well have sown a good seed here Serfboard.

You could even launch the group as A THINK TANK FOR INTEGRATED TRANSPORT PLANNING IN THE WEST OF IRELAND

Thank you everybody for your input. I agree with what a lot of people say and that it would be better to be for something rather than against something else. The suggested lobby-group name was just thrown out there as an attempted humourous aside rather than as a serious suggestion as to what the name should be.

As regards the WRC, naturally one of the first questions that would be asked by people regarding any capital spend on this would be "Where is the money going to come from?" or "What's your opinion of West-On-Track?" at which point this would have to be made known. And once you engage WOT you could make yourself a target of hysterical ranting. However, I do get the impression that some western politicians would support it, and would love any excuse to get WOT off their backs.

westtip wrote: »

Whilst we recognise the value of the WRC, we also recognise the need for focus on the greatest needs of transport infrastucture in the west. The west of Ireland is by nature of its settlement patterns and size of towns very dependent on road transport; and in our view the greater priority for the west must be the Atlantic Road Corridor and the economic benefits it will bring and benefits to both private road users and bus operators and in general to the business activity taking place in the west. To get our bus services moving quickly and efficiently we need to have better roads, and bus lanes into our major urban centres -building this better road infrastructure will lead to potentially greater critical mass of both economic activity and people living in the west - which may in turn lead to the need for better rail commuter services that could be provided by the Western Rail Corridor. However, until we get that critical mass of people, we believe the WRC should be postponed, and the alignment of the track be maintained in public ownership as a greenway - for potential future use as a railway. Using the WRC this way will give the alignment of the WRC back to the public to make good use of it now. etc etc

Westtip, an excellent contribution. This is positive ++. "We are in favour of WRC - just not right now". (Maybe in 100 years when Sligo is as big as Belfast is now and Galway is as big as Dublin is now).

westtip · 02-09-2009 10:10PM

Serfboard - if ou can pick up a copy of this weeks Sligo Champion (Sept 2) Good piece buy Felim O'rourke in it about the WRC Claremorris-Collooney section.

so whats next on the agenda for this lobby group?

Sponge Bob · 02-09-2009 10:26PM

serfboard wrote:

I agree with what a lot of people say and that it would be better to be for something rather than against something else.

Absolutely . You hit the ground with a vision and then let the bastards try to grind you down.

gunbarrel · 02-09-2009 11:32PM

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Add to that that perhaps Citylinks (or BEs) Galway - Dublin service should stop at Galway airport. Not many would use it at first, but then BEs service to the airport is as good as non existant so it would take a bit to get used to. It would probably only add 5 minutes to the journey and would be very useful.

Might be difficult to get a private company to do it but BÉ should not have a problem with it. If Citylink were willing to do it then it might not be too far out of their way to do it for the Shannon service either.

I am surprised Westtip has missed a key point. How about ensuring that all Sligo - Galway services serve both Tuam and Claremorris train station (maybe they do already). That way, through integrated transport, Tuam would now be connected to the rail service.

I think the key thing for any policy for the West is to take the West as a whole from Derry City to Kerry and inland as far as Athlone and plan your policy for the whole region. For example, Athlone is nearly equidistant to Knock Airport, Shannon Airport (when the M18 is done) and Dublin Airport yet due to transport restrictions Athlone people are far more likely to use Dublin airport. A properly developed Transport service in the West would see Knock and Shannon competing for more customers from the midlands region. This could be true of other services also.

westtip · 03-09-2009 07:11AM

gunbarrel wrote: »

I am surprised Westtip has missed a key point. How about ensuring that all Sligo - Galway services serve both Tuam and Claremorris train station (maybe they do already). That way, through integrated transport, Tuam would now be connected to the rail service.

.

Gunbarrel if I advocated the train line from to Tuam and Claremorris I think many readers of this board (see Western Rail Corridor thread) would be sending round the men in the white coats for me! Please read that thread to consider the debate on the WRC, my views on it are well known! The future for public transport on an intra-town basis and intra-city basis in the west is clearly in buses - our greatest infrastructural issue in the west is not opening rural railway lines but having decent trunk roads for buses, commercial traffic and private cars to travel on safely.

Neworder79 · 03-09-2009 09:17AM

serfboard wrote: »

6. Knock Airport to be served by all Galway->Sligo routes.

This one annoys me, it's a no brainer, 630,000 used the airport last year and it's location next to the junction of the N17 & N5 means there are literally hundreds of Bus Eireann services (Glaway - Sligo - Donegal, Longford - Ballina) passing the door of Ireland West every week losing out on customers.

The airport car parks are heaving as there is no alternative to driving, with people now parking on the entrance roadside. On several occasions this summer there were no hire cars left at the airport despite there being 7 hire companies, and arriving passengers were left to wait for the few taxis that were available and pay €70 - €100 to get to Westport or Galway. I often hear similar complaints from tourists arriving in the west about the lack of any public transport option. Not much attraction in low cost Ryanair or AerLingus flights if you have to pay 3 times as much for a taxi.

Bus Eireann announced 7 routes (including existing Galway, Sligo, Donegal, Derry, Castlebar, Westport & Ballina routes) would be serving the airport back in 2005 with lots of media fanfare and large decals on the side of all their western coaches advertising the fact. I believe the airport built bus stands and changed the entrance gates to accommodate them. Nothing had happened 2 years later so some pressure was put on politicians and an announcement was made that the DOT had "sanctioned" the routes and they would now begin in 07.

It's nearly 5 years since the announcement with no movement, the coaches still drive by the gates, and the stop-gap Charlestown shuttle is being cut. In the same period Bus Eireann have launched several Dublin Airport services direct from towns in the West! Where's the joined up thinking there?

gunbarrel · 03-09-2009 09:38AM

westtip wrote: »

Gunbarrel if I advocated the train line from to Tuam and Claremorris I think many readers of this board (see Western Rail Corridor thread) would be sending round the men in the white coats for me! Please read that thread to consider the debate on the WRC, my views on it are well known! The future for public transport on an intra-town basis and intra-city basis in the west is clearly in buses - our greatest infrastructural issue in the west is not opening rural railway lines but having decent trunk roads for buses, commercial traffic and private cars to travel on safely.

Please read my comment properly and in context. I was clearly talking about bus services i.e. having all bus services stop at Claremorris Train Station would allow places like Tuam to be connected to the train service via integrated transport. If they want to get the train to Dublin, bus to Claremorris and train.

gunbarrel · 03-09-2009 09:42AM

Neworder79 wrote: »

This one annoys me, it's a no brainer, 630,000 used the airport last year and it's location next to the junction of the N17 & N5 means there are literally hundreds of Bus Eireann services (Glaway - Sligo - Donegal, Longford - Ballina) passing the door of Ireland West every week losing out on customers.

The airport car parks are heaving as there is no alternative to driving, with people now parking on the entrance roadside. On several occasions this summer there were no hire cars left at the airport despite there being 7 hire companies, and arriving passengers were left to wait for the few taxis that were available and pay €70 - €100 to get to Westport or Galway. I often hear similar complaints from tourists arriving in the west about the lack of any public transport option. Not much attraction in low cost Ryanair or AerLingus flights if you have to pay 3 times as much for a taxi.

Bus Eireann announced 7 routes (including existing Galway, Sligo, Donegal, Derry, Castlebar, Westport & Ballina routes) would be serving the airport back in 2005 with lots of media fanfare and large decals on the side of all their western coaches advertising the fact. I believe the airport built bus stands and changed the entrance gates to accommodate them. Nothing had happened 2 years later so some pressure was put on politicians and an announcement was made that the DOT had "sanctioned" the routes and they would now begin in 07.

It's nearly 5 years since the announcement with no movement, the coaches still drive by the gates, and the stop-gap Charlestown shuttle is being cut. In the same period Bus Eireann have launched several Dublin Airport services direct from towns in the West! Where's the joined up thinking there?

Good post, a chara. Having effective bus services to / from Knock would be of real benefit to the West and Midlands regions.

Neworder79 · 03-09-2009 10:22AM

I read on another board that there are 86 bus departures from Cork Airport, and 136 through Shannon every day (Bus Eireann & Citylink). With the previously mentioned false announcements at Knock and Bus Eireann advertising 4am Ballina - Dublin Airport services on local radio, you'd be forgiven for thinking the state agencies were colluding to prevent growth at regional airports.

Surely Bus Eireann could at least try routing the Galway - Sligo service via Ireland West, it would add very little to the journey time. And there are no bus services from Westport or Castlebar that go anywhere near the airport.

Zoney · 03-09-2009 10:30AM

Neworder79 wrote: »

I read on another board that there are 86 bus departures from Cork Airport, and 136 through Shannon every day (Bus Eireann & Citylink). With the previously mentioned false announcements at Knock and Bus Eireann advertising 4am Ballina - Dublin Airport services on local radio, you'd be forgiven for thinking the state agencies were colluding to prevent growth at regional airports.

Surely Bus Eireann could at least try routing the Galway - Sligo service via Ireland West, it would add very little to the journey time. And there are no bus services from Westport or Castlebar that go anywhere near the airport.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Knock (I think Shannon should serve the entire West from Sligo to north Cork - although the current roads built/uc/planned are decades late for that) but with it being there, it seems a bit silly to encourage people to use the overcrowded Dublin Airport.

Mrs OBumble · 03-09-2009 10:50AM

Chris_533976 wrote:

Add to that that perhaps Citylinks (or BEs) Galway - Dublin service should stop at Galway airport.

gunbarrel wrote: »

Might be difficult to get a private company to do it but BÉ should not have a problem with it. If Citylink were willing to do it then it might not be too far out of their way to do it for the Shannon service either.

I suspect that it would be a lot easier to convince a private company to do than BE.

TBH, I feel sorry for them: they're trying to operate a bus company but are subject to so much political pressure. And I'm sure that they don't have the right mix in their fleet (eg we're seeing inaccessible long distance coaches being used for city services again lately), but don't have access to the capital decisions to sort this out. (Maybe the company does have the capital overall, but local managers aren't able to influence the decisions.)

OP, I'm broadly sympathetic. Only in Ireland two years, so I don't know so much about the wider issues. But the GLUAS sounds like a fairy-tale to me, given the population levels, and I agree that fixed-track services in general don't work in countries that are spread out.

NB I've been trying to do something about the information gap re city services (see www.GalwayTransport.info for the sneakiest way to get to Galway airport

... the taxi drivers are gonna hate me!).

Mary

Neworder79 · 03-09-2009 11:08AM

Well no surprise you'd say that living in Limerick Zoney, however for most people living in the Notrh West region Knock is very convenient, and indeed Dublin is often closer (under 2.5 hours from most parts) than Shannon. Shannon is a nice airport with good facilities but I'll choose Dublin first if there is no route from Knock. So the dream of Shannon serving the whole 350 mile western seaboard is unlikely to happen unless WOT get their Maglev. But this is not about airports just common sense strategic planning.

I agree with the serfboards premise that we would be better served by having money invested in the basic road and bus infrastructure still lacking in the region before chasing expensive rail solutions. Looking at Connacht alone, large sections of the primary access routes N17 Galway - Sligo and N5 Longford - Ballaghaderreen are very poor quality. Secondary roads linking towns like the N84 Galway - Castlebar/Westport, N26 Ballina are narrow and full of dangerous bends and junctions. Several by-pass projects in the region are now on hold due to funding.

WRC may have a role in the future if we can grow our regional towns but it has taken the light off problems far more important to the daily lives of people in the West.

murphaph · 03-09-2009 11:13AM

Zoney wrote: »

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Knock (I think Shannon should serve the entire West from Sligo to north Cork - although the current roads built/uc/planned are decades late for that) but with it being there, it seems a bit silly to encourage people to use the overcrowded Dublin Airport.

It won't be overcrowded for long with T2 on the way though.

As far as Knock is concerned-they presumably make a killing on car parking charges so would they be bothered trying to facilitate buses in or about their property?

Zoney · 03-09-2009 11:24AM

Neworder79 wrote: »

So the dream of Shannon serving the whole 350 mile western seaboard is unlikely to happen unless WOT get their Maglev.

Actually the existing M18, completion of N7 SRR phase 2, the under construction/planned M18, and planned M17, Tuam bypass, and Galway bypass will make a huge difference for people getting to/from Shannon. No Maglev involved. Sure people were going on in the WRC thread about how the new roads would allow 2 hours Limerick-Sligo, how would that not make Shannon more viable for even somewhere as far away as Sligo?

Neworder79 · 03-09-2009 11:27AM

Fair point murphaph but passenger numbers are also important and if the push factors of parking costs and lack of public transport alternatives/costly taxis outweigh the pull factors of convenience and low cost flights then people will go elsewhere. It's also important in attracting airlines.

Not everyone drives so public transport is also an deciding factor for people choosing an airport, particularly inbound tourists who take it for granted. Ireland is the only country in the world I've been to you land in the airport and there is no bus to take you anywhere.

Neworder79 · 03-09-2009 11:38AM

Zoney wrote: »

Actually the existing M18, completion of N7 SRR phase 2, the under construction/planned M18, and planned M17, Tuam bypass, and Galway bypass will make a huge difference for people getting to/from Shannon. No Maglev involved. Sure people were going on in the WRC thread about how the new roads would allow 2 hours Limerick-Sligo, how would that not make Shannon more viable for even somewhere as far away as Sligo?

Yes M17/18 will make Shannon more attractive to people north of Galway. But we choose flights based on cost, frequency and convenience. So the M6 may equally attract more Galway people to Dublin. Sligo is just over 2 hours from Dublin and when give the choice of a more convenient morning/evening flight time or choice of airlines, most will choose Dublin, a road they may traveling regularly with more backup facilities should there be a problem at the airport.

Lets try and avoid the my county airports better than yours debate and keep the thread on track, or off track as it were

gunbarrel · 03-09-2009 12:10PM

@ NewOrder79

Surely Bus Eireann could at least try routing the Galway - Sligo service via Ireland West, it would add very little to the journey time. And there are no bus services from Westport or Castlebar that go anywhere near the airport.

This is a very important point, these services are already going past the gate, it would be minimum disruption get them to go in, set passengers down and pick up more and once the service has developed the benefits would likely outweigh the cost.

This why I also suggest stopping at Claremorris train station. By doing so, passengers from Westport, Ballina, Castlebar, Athlone, Roscommon etc. would have a transport link to the Airport simply by integrating existing services so the additonal cost would be minimum but the return for the Airport, the bus service and the train line could be significant. Of course such integration would also allow passengers to get off the plane and onto the train services relatively quickly.

@ Zoney

Yeah, I'm not a fan of Knock (I think Shannon should serve the entire West from Sligo to north Cork - although the current roads built/uc/planned are decades late for that) but with it being there, it seems a bit silly to encourage people to use the overcrowded Dublin Airport.

Again a crucial point. Many people give out about Knock and if it was done properly, it would never have been built, but it was and it is there so we should be doing all that we can to promote the use of the airport and thus decrease its reliance on Government assistance. As posters here have pointed out some small modification to existing services could see great improvements being made.

@ Murphaph

It won't be overcrowded for long with T2 on the way though.

Fair point but once we get passed this temporary blip that is the recession the population of Dublin and the Eastern Seaboard will grow again. More pressure will be placed on Dublin Airport. What Dublin Airport really needs is and extended runway to allow them to cope with Long Haul flights but this would increase the pressure on Dublin Airport. By encouraging Western customers to use Western Airports it would be much easier for Dublin to focus on its real priorities.

As for the Shannon V Knock chat, there is really no need for it. On an island as small as Ireland there will always be overlaps in the catchment areas for airports but Shannon serves areas that are not viable for Knock and Knock serves areas that are not viable for Shannon. We should be given both airports the best opportunity to succeed. In the case of Knock drastic improvements in accessibility could be made by make minor changes to existing transport services. These changes would see our transport companies make more than the changes cost. They should at least be willing to give it a shot.

westtip · 03-09-2009 02:09PM

Neworder79 wrote: »

In the same period Bus Eireann have launched several Dublin Airport services direct from towns in the West! Where's the joined up thinking there?

come on now - joined up thinking - integrated transport planning - direct buses from towns like Ballina, Castlebar, Foxford, Claremorris etc actually stopping at an air terminal which serves them all.....and which they all drive past.. Minister O'Cuiv referred to Knock Airport as being at the "crossroads of Connacht" in his speech on May 1st to the WOT conference, he was referring to the crossings of the N5 and N17 - pity a few bus operators don't realise just how dumb it is not to schedule in stops to go to Knock - I didn't realise the shuttle service is being cut to Charlestown? when did that get cut back?

Any bus travelling along the N5 and N17 should call to Knock - in particular to tie in with their flight times - it ain't rocket science really is it!

pointofnoreturn · 03-09-2009 02:43PM

serfboard wrote: »

I have been following with great interest the Western Rail Corridor thread on this forum for quite a while and my views are fairly clear on this issue - I'm against it. ...
1. The halting of any future plans to develop the Western Rail Corridor north of Athenry, and the scrapping of any plans to develop a Luas in Galway. (I realise that funding will probably not be there for these projects anyway).

I think you have the wrong approach here, being completely against one thing and then wanting to support your own group clearly going against another groups objectives is just stupid! the my two cents about your plan

About generally a group for promoting public transport, YES! i do think we need a group to push for proper transportation governance in this country; because we just don't. and i've seen not motivation in the government to do so either.

Everywhere else in Europe except Ireland and most of UK don't manage there transport properly, Now i mean making the bus, rail and boat operators collaborate together for a well integrated network of single ticketing and connected services. This is the LAW in most countries.

And in relation to your group, It should co-operate with IR in the WRC project to connect services together.

Chris_533976 · 03-09-2009 04:35PM

If the whole of the Atlantic Corridor is built then Knock airport should be closed and its services moved to Galway. Theres absolutely no need for both.

Edit: Or even move Galway airport to Knock, as Galway will be 1 hour from Shannon.

westtip · 03-09-2009 05:51PM

pointofnoreturn wrote: »

I

And in relation to your group, It should co-operate with IR in the WRC project to connect services together.

POR I think you may have missed the point of Serfboards idea - and SB correct me if I am wrong.

Many of us debating the WRC on that by now legendary thread, have done so on the basis that it makes bad transport planning - I am not going to go over all the arguments which I and many others have espoused on that thread; many of us think it is fundamentally not needed.

We know that Ennis-Athenry-Galway will open - but we don't have much faith in it - WE MIGHT BE WRONG - but I doubt it.

Its not that we are against transport investment in the west - of course we all have that common aim, but for a pressure group, think tank, lobby group to come together with ideas for travel in the west it does not mean we have to agree with another lobby group - because its in the wesht, for the wesht and the wesht must fight its corner, and must collaborate with that group -how can we when we fundamentally disagree with the raison d'etre of that group.

I think the issue is the west, (like other parts of the country) needs its transportation issues sorted out - living in the west we are entitled to have an opinion and collectively apply pressure and put our point of view into the public arena about how we think those transport issues could be sorted. We do not believe in WRC not because we are anti rail or anti west - but we don't think it is the right solution for the west, at this point in time; and both the capital expenditure on the project and probably far more important the level of subvention required to keep it going - will mean monies will be diverted from far more effetive transport solutions for the west - in terms of capital expenditure on the primary roads development needed and in terms of subvention of the WRC how that money would be far more effective in providing a decent public transport service by massively subventing the bus services, which would server far more people.

Our view (again SerfB come in and tell me if I have grasped your OP correctly) is a more hollistic one:

The west has transport issues, there is only so much money to spend, how would our share of the pot be spent most wisely, and can WRC be part of that wise spend of the money, the OP thinks not and many others agree - Sorry Serf I don't want to turn this into the WRC thread mark 2! and if we don't agree with the WRC why embrace it as part of the overall west strategy, sure we may as well all move to Claremorris and join the holy movement!

gunbarrel · 03-09-2009 06:02PM

westtip wrote: »

POR I think you may have missed the point of Serfboards idea - and SB correct me if I am wrong.

Many of us debating the WRC on that by now legendary thread, have done so on the basis that it makes bad transport planning - I am not going to go over all the arguments which I and many others have espoused on that thread; many of us think it is fundamentally not needed.

We know that Ennis-Athenry-Galway will open - but we don't have much faith in it - WE MIGHT BE WRONG - but I doubt it.

Its not that we are against transport investment in the west - of course we all have that common aim, but for a pressure group, think tank, lobby group to come together with ideas for travel in the west it does not mean we have to agree with another lobby group - because its in the wesht, for the wesht and the wesht must fight its corner, and must collaborate with that group -how can we when we fundamentally disagree with the raison d'etre of that group.

I think the issue is the west, (like other parts of the country) needs its transportation issues sorted out - living in the west we are entitled to have an opinion and collectively apply pressure and put our point of view into the public arena about how we think those transport issues could be sorted. We do not believe in WRC not because we are anti rail or anti west - but we don't think it is the right solution for the west, at this point in time; and both the capital expenditure on the project and probably far more important the level of subvention required to keep it going - will mean monies will be diverted from far more effetive transport solutions for the west - in terms of capital expenditure on the primary roads development needed and in terms of subvention of the WRC how that money would be far more effective in providing a decent public transport service by massively subventing the bus services, which would server far more people.

Our view (again SerfB come in and tell me if I have grasped your OP correctly) is a more hollistic one:

The west has transport issues, there is only so much money to spend, how would our share of the pot be spent most wisely, and can WRC be part of that wise spend of the money, the OP thinks not and many others agree - Sorry Serf I don't want to turn this into the WRC thread mark 2! and if we don't agree with the WRC why embrace it as part of the overall west strategy, sure we may as well all move to Claremorris and join the holy movement!

All fair enough in relation to the sections yet to (if ever) be built. But the section that has been built already should be included, where possible, in any integrated transport plan for the West.

@ Chris

If the whole of the Atlantic Corridor is built then Knock airport should be closed and its services moved to Galway. Theres absolutely no need for both.

Edit: Or even move Galway airport to Knock, as Galway will be 1 hour from Shannon.

There certainly will not be any need for both of them. As Knock will be more advanced I would say the best bet would be to keep Knock. From what I have heard (might not be true) Galway cannot get Planning permission to extend the runway so that proper sized planes can use it. I have never seen Galway Airport so I dont know how true that is.

West-By-Bus: A New Group to campaign for bus transport in the West

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