Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/

Lisbon vote October 2nd - How do you intend to vote?

1…5960626465…127

Comments

  • #1832
    MrMicra
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭MrMicra


    Freeborn John wrote: »
    National government is not always democratic, but democratic government is always national. Government of the people, by the people, for the people requires a people, and the EU does not have one.
    This is simply false. There is no UK people, the UK is a supranational organisation and it is a democracy.

    Freeborn John wrote: »
    You are way out of date. Under Lisbon the Council of Ministers would only have equal power with the EU Parliament, a body with less democratic legitimacy than the national governments in the EU Council of Ministers.
    You do not understand the nature of co decision and the claim that the EU parliament has less democratic legitimacy than the council of ministers is derived from your own misunderstanding of the words 'national', 'democratic' and legitimate. I do not agree that the EU parliament is less democratic than the Council of Ministers.

    Your dating of the EUs crisis of legitimacy is bizarre. The term democratic deficit dates from 1986 and there have always been a minority of Europeans who would be happiest with a free trade bloc. As the idea of the crisis of legitimacy predates Maastricht it cannot be dated from Maastricht.


  • #1833
    ian_m
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,322 ✭✭✭ian_m


    Firstly I'd like to see a Don't Know added to the options.

    Secondly, will voting Yes give Europe the power to ammend the Irish Constitustion witout the consent of the Irish people?


  • #1834
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,855 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    ian_m wrote: »
    ...will voting Yes give Europe the power to ammend the Irish Constitustion witout the consent of the Irish people?
    No, absolutely not. Why would "Europe" want to do that?


  • #1835
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    ian_m wrote: »
    Firstly I'd like to see a Don't Know added to the options.

    Secondly, will voting Yes give Europe the power to ammend the Irish Constitustion witout the consent of the Irish people?

    The only people who have the power to change the Irish Constitution is the Irish people. Article 4 is very specific on the division of rights between the EU and member states and is very clear that it respects the constitutional arrangements of each member state.

    Article 4 TEU

    1. In accordance with Article 5, competences not conferred upon the Union in the Treaties remain with the Member States.

    2. The Union shall respect the equality of Member States before the Treaties as well as their national identities, inherent in their fundamental structures, political and constitutional, inclusive of regional and local self-government. It hall respect their essential State functions, including ensuring the territorial integrity of the State, maintaining law and order and safeguarding national security. In particular, national security remains the sole responsibility of each Member State.

    3. Pursuant to the principle of sincere cooperation, the Union and the Member States shall, in full mutual respect, assist each other in carrying out tasks which flow from the Treaties. The Member States shall take any appropriate measure, general or particular, to ensure fulfilment of the obligations arising out of the Treaties or resulting from the acts of the institutions of the
    Union. The Member States shall facilitate the achievement of the Union’s tasks and refrain from any measure which could jeopardise the attainment of the Union’s objectives.


  • #1836
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    ian_m wrote: »
    Secondly, will voting Yes give Europe the power to ammend the Irish Constitustion witout the consent of the Irish people?

    It's basically a distortion of the facts. What changes is that individual pieces of a treaty can be passed on their own rather than having to pass an entire Treaty. What this means is that individual changes which don't require a referendum won't be put to a referendum. Any changes which would require a referendum will still require a referendum. So if a change was brought in to give the EU a new area of competency (say over direct taxation rates) it would still require a referendum in Ireland to be passed.

    Regarding your specific question: No amendments to the constitution can be made without a referendum so it's impossible for the above to happen unless we specifically give up this right in a referendum which I cannot see happening and which Lisbon does not do.


    Edit: As an added point, many of us on the Yes side would be on the No side if Lisbon allowed things like new competencies to be brought in without needing a referendum.


  • Advertisement
  • #1837
    97i9y3941
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,616 ✭✭✭97i9y3941


    source-http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lisbon-treaty/roche-savages-wagecut-lies-in-bitter-treaty-clash-1873554.html

    Roche savages wage-cut 'lies' in bitter treaty clash

    By Aine Kerr Political Correspondent
    Monday August 31 2009

    THE right-wing Catholic organisation Coir was last night accused of telling "lies" after claiming the minimum wage would plummet to €1.84 if the Lisbon Treaty is passed.

    European Affairs Minister Dick Roche said there was "no logic" to new Coir posters which read: "€1.84 -- the minimum wage after Lisbon?"

    "Coir is a very sinister organisation. It's a very secretive organisation and is the grown-up version of Youth Defence which itself was a very sinister organisation," Mr Roche told the Irish Independent.

    "The interesting thing about Coir is that it passes it self off as a Christian organisation. One of the traditions of course in that faith is that you don't tell lies. This poster is absolutely a lie. The minimum wage level is a matter for each individual country," Mr Roche said.

    Robust

    "Truthfulness and Coir do not fit in the same sentence," he said.

    But in a robust response to Mr Roche's scathing attack, Coir's spokesman Richard Greene insisted the poster was accurate and truthful.

    He claimed the European Court had found on several occasions that big companies have the right to important cheap labour and undercut local workers.

    He cited the Laval/Vaxholm case that companies were entitled to bring migrant workers to Ireland and pay them no more than the minimum wage, despite locally set wage agreements. In the Ruffert and Viking cases, the court found against workers, saying the right of workers to earn a living wage can be set aside in the interest of an employer to trade freely and provide services, Mr Greene said.

    "What our posters show is that our wage conditions are under threat because of this worrying trend, which is smashing minimum wage rights.

    The figure of €1.84 is the average of the accession countries and is based on Eurostat figures," Mr Greene said. Foreign Affairs Minister Micheal Martin last night renewed his attack on the group, after Coir accused him of a "smear" in claiming that it was little more than anti-abortion group Youth Defence hiding behind another name.

    "This is ridiculous, as anyone can see from the basic facts. Coir operates out of the Youth Defence Headquarters and, as of last week, there was no mention whatsoever of Coir on the building," Mr Martin said.

    Coir spokesman Richard Greene said Youth Defence was generously allowing them to use their offices.

    "We are completely independent," he said.

    - Aine Kerr Political Correspondent


  • #1838
    Freeborn John
    Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭Freeborn John


    MrMicra wrote: »
    This is simply false. There is no UK people, the UK is a supranational organisation and it is a democracy.

    There is a British nation.
    MrMicra wrote: »
    You do not understand the nature of co decision and the claim that the EU parliament has less democratic legitimacy than the council of ministers is derived from your own misunderstanding of the words 'national', 'democratic' and legitimate .

    Someone who has just described the UK as a supranational organisation and thinks the Chinese state has a democratic legeitimacy, is in no position to patronise anyone.


  • #1839
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,364 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Freeborn John wrote: »
    There is a British nation.

    .

    the Welsh and Scottish don't like being called "British" ...


  • #1840
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Fred83 wrote: »
    source-http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lisbon-treaty/roche-savages-wagecut-lies-in-bitter-treaty-clash-1873554.html

    Roche savages wage-cut 'lies' in bitter treaty clash

    By Aine Kerr Political Correspondent
    Monday August 31 2009

    THE right-wing Catholic organisation Coir was last night accused of telling "lies" after claiming the minimum wage would plummet to €1.84 if the Lisbon Treaty is passed.

    European Affairs Minister Dick Roche said there was "no logic" to new Coir posters which read: "€1.84 -- the minimum wage after Lisbon?"

    "Coir is a very sinister organisation. It's a very secretive organisation and is the grown-up version of Youth Defence which itself was a very sinister organisation," Mr Roche told the Irish Independent.

    "The interesting thing about Coir is that it passes it self off as a Christian organisation. One of the traditions of course in that faith is that you don't tell lies. This poster is absolutely a lie. The minimum wage level is a matter for each individual country," Mr Roche said.

    Robust

    "Truthfulness and Coir do not fit in the same sentence," he said.

    But in a robust response to Mr Roche's scathing attack, Coir's spokesman Richard Greene insisted the poster was accurate and truthful.

    He claimed the European Court had found on several occasions that big companies have the right to important cheap labour and undercut local workers.

    He cited the Laval/Vaxholm case that companies were entitled to bring migrant workers to Ireland and pay them no more than the minimum wage, despite locally set wage agreements. In the Ruffert and Viking cases, the court found against workers, saying the right of workers to earn a living wage can be set aside in the interest of an employer to trade freely and provide services, Mr Greene said.

    "What our posters show is that our wage conditions are under threat because of this worrying trend, which is smashing minimum wage rights.

    The figure of €1.84 is the average of the accession countries and is based on Eurostat figures," Mr Greene said. Foreign Affairs Minister Micheal Martin last night renewed his attack on the group, after Coir accused him of a "smear" in claiming that it was little more than anti-abortion group Youth Defence hiding behind another name.

    "This is ridiculous, as anyone can see from the basic facts. Coir operates out of the Youth Defence Headquarters and, as of last week, there was no mention whatsoever of Coir on the building," Mr Martin said.

    Coir spokesman Richard Greene said Youth Defence was generously allowing them to use their offices.

    "We are completely independent," he said.

    - Aine Kerr Political Correspondent
    Sorry can i clarify this. Is the posting of newsclips without a comment allowed.


  • #1841
    nesf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,644 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Guys, the whole Welsh/British/Scottish thing has no place in a thread about how people plan to vote on Lisbon. Please take the discussion to a different thread.


  • Advertisement
  • #1842
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    bayviewclose wrote: »
    Sorry can i clarify this. Is the posting of newsclips without a comment allowed.

    Tolerable in-thread if relevant. Not acceptable for starting a thread.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • #1843
    Scofflaw
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Freeborn John wrote:
    National government is not always democratic, but democratic government is always national.

    A remark which is virtually all you have ever said, albeit at much greater length.

    amused,
    Scofflaw


  • #1844
    Spiritoftheseventies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,082 ✭✭✭✭Spiritoftheseventies


    Fred83 wrote: »
    source-http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lisbon-treaty/roche-savages-wagecut-lies-in-bitter-treaty-clash-1873554.html

    Roche savages wage-cut 'lies' in bitter treaty clash

    By Aine Kerr Political Correspondent
    Monday August 31 2009

    THE right-wing Catholic organisation Coir was last night accused of telling "lies" after claiming the minimum wage would plummet to €1.84 if the Lisbon Treaty is passed.

    European Affairs Minister Dick Roche said there was "no logic" to new Coir posters which read: "€1.84 -- the minimum wage after Lisbon?"

    "Coir is a very sinister organisation. It's a very secretive organisation and is the grown-up version of Youth Defence which itself was a very sinister organisation," Mr Roche told the Irish Independent.

    "The interesting thing about Coir is that it passes it self off as a Christian organisation. One of the traditions of course in that faith is that you don't tell lies. This poster is absolutely a lie. The minimum wage level is a matter for each individual country," Mr Roche said.

    Robust

    "Truthfulness and Coir do not fit in the same sentence," he said.

    But in a robust response to Mr Roche's scathing attack, Coir's spokesman Richard Greene insisted the poster was accurate and truthful.

    He claimed the European Court had found on several occasions that big companies have the right to important cheap labour and undercut local workers.

    He cited the Laval/Vaxholm case that companies were entitled to bring migrant workers to Ireland and pay them no more than the minimum wage, despite locally set wage agreements. In the Ruffert and Viking cases, the court found against workers, saying the right of workers to earn a living wage can be set aside in the interest of an employer to trade freely and provide services, Mr Greene said.

    "What our posters show is that our wage conditions are under threat because of this worrying trend, which is smashing minimum wage rights.

    The figure of €1.84 is the average of the accession countries and is based on Eurostat figures," Mr Greene said. Foreign Affairs Minister Micheal Martin last night renewed his attack on the group, after Coir accused him of a "smear" in claiming that it was little more than anti-abortion group Youth Defence hiding behind another name.

    "This is ridiculous, as anyone can see from the basic facts. Coir operates out of the Youth Defence Headquarters and, as of last week, there was no mention whatsoever of Coir on the building," Mr Martin said.

    Coir spokesman Richard Greene said Youth Defence was generously allowing them to use their offices.

    "We are completely independent," he said.

    - Aine Kerr Political Correspondent
    Heard Greene along with Fianna Fail rep on Last Word today. in Terms of Youth Defence, he said that in the same way Today FM and Newstalk share the same building so do Coir and Youth Defence. Cooper asked him for a list of their numbers and he shirked the issue a bit.
    But again that figure of 200 million of money lost in Irish fisheries was brought up and that Irish fishermen were being told to stay at home.
    When Cooper brought up fact that Irish Fisheries was in fact dead it was not challenged by Fianna Fail speaker who did challenge Greene on the issue of the minimum wage. Which I thought was strange.
    Last word show is available tomorrow so its around twenty five minutes into the show if any one wants to listen. Valid arguments by Both sides I thought.


  • #1845
    Freeborn John
    Closed Accounts Posts: 193 ✭✭Freeborn John


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    A remark which is virtually all you have ever said, albeit at much greater length.

    amused,
    Scofflaw

    I'd stick to dishing out the infraction notices on EU-sceptic posts if i were you scofflaw. Joined up thinking on the nature of representaive government and its violation by supranatioanal instutions in Brussels is clearly way beyond you.


  • #1846
    MrMicra
    Closed Accounts Posts: 457 ✭✭MrMicra


    Representative government can be supranational. I do not understand why you assert that this is impossible. Belgium is arguably a supranational organisation. There are 3 large language groups in Switzerland that also differ in religion. South Africa contains many language, religious and even racial groups.

    You are not engaged in joined up thinking of any sort. National <> democratic <> legitimate.


  • #1847
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,698 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    in Terms of Youth Defence, he said that in the same way Today FM and Newstalk share the same building so do Coir and Youth Defence.



    Both Newstalk and Today FM are owned by the same company (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communicorp)

    sort of defeats his point doesnt it?


  • #1848
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Not sure where to post. Interesting Q&A here with Hugo Brady of the Centre for European Reform, I presume from last year sometime. Give a decent background on the Negotiations and the main changes in the treaty.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/features/lisbontreaty/qa_ans.html


  • #1849
    Jocksereire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 279 ✭✭Jocksereire


    No No No


  • #1850
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Jocksereire wrote: »
    No No No

    It's that Two Unlimited song isn't it?


  • #1851
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    MrMicra wrote: »
    Representative government can be supranational. I do not understand why you assert that this is impossible. Belgium is arguably a supranational organisation. There are 3 large language groups in Switzerland that also differ in religion. South Africa contains many language, religious and even racial groups.

    You are not engaged in joined up thinking of any sort. National <> democratic <> legitimate.

    I've already given my reasoning on this. The smaller the population, the stronger the individual vote. Therefore Local government > National government > Supernational government in terms of democracy, IMO.

    It's funny you should mention Switzerland. They have a purer form of democracy than in pretty much any other country in the world and therefore they have slightly less to worry about than we do, in a country where the government already ignores the democratic will of the people on a regular basis.


  • Advertisement
  • #1852
    Red Sleeping Beauty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,443 ✭✭✭Red Sleeping Beauty


    Does anyone know what wording the referendum ballot paper will have ? Same as last time or what ?


  • #1853
    Dipsy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭Dipsy


    Hi everyone, I personally shall be voting no. I voted no the last time and I am voting no again.

    I am so disheartened that we have to vote again. I was raised with the fighting irish spirit in me and I am quite saddened that we have just rolled over and taken all of this.

    I truly hope that everybody gets out to vote and, with no malice intended - anyone who is thinking of voting yes! Get your head out of your backside!!! The facts are there! Research this! ! ! Why are you so afraid of the truth. The truth will set you free. I know its scary but life after lisbon will be even scarier. Get over yourselves now and your decking and your jeeps and think about the future generation. Is it really that hard to believe that your government is lying to you. I dont know whether to laugh or cry :(:o;):pac::confused:

    But then, I am also of the belief that I create what I think.. so......... guess this is all my fault then.... :D

    Not sure if this has been posted.... It is legally correct and 100% fact.

    http://wethepeopleofeire.com/thelisbontreaty.html


  • #1854
    BlitzKrieg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,698 ✭✭✭✭BlitzKrieg


    Not sure if this has been posted.... It is legally correct and 100% fact.


    sadly neither is true, this has come through here numerous times and this post has a file attached of a breakdown of those 13 *facts*

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=61161176&postcount=67

    you can see the whole thread where it was discussed (not for the first time) here:


    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055616894


    Assuming those voting yes (especially here on boards) have not researched this and know the facts is a mistake that is made far too often.


  • #1855
    marco_polo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 10,093 Mod ✭✭✭✭marco_polo


    Dipsy wrote: »
    Hi everyone, I personally shall be voting no. I voted no the last time and I am voting no again.

    I am so disheartened that we have to vote again. I was raised with the fighting irish spirit in me and I am quite saddened that we have just rolled over and taken all of this.

    I truly hope that everybody gets out to vote and, with no malice intended - anyone who is thinking of voting yes! Get your head out of your backside!!! The facts are there! Research this! ! ! Why are you so afraid of the truth. The truth will set you free. I know its scary but life after lisbon will be even scarier. Get over yourselves now and your decking and your jeeps and think about the future generation. Is it really that hard to believe that your government is lying to you. I dont know whether to laugh or cry :(:o;):pac::confused:

    But then, I am also of the belief that I create what I think.. so......... guess this is all my fault then.... :D

    Not sure if this has been posted.... It is legally correct and 100% fact.

    http://wethepeopleofeire.com/thelisbontreaty.html

    Is there no Anti Lisbon group capable of coming up with new and original lies?

    Why do you put so much faith in the opinions of a man that doesn't even know the difference between a direct and an indirect tax?


  • #1856
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Dipsy wrote: »
    I am so disheartened that we have to vote again. I was raised with the fighting irish spirit in me and I am quite saddened that we have just rolled over and taken all of this.

    Taken all of what exactly? Our established habit at this stage is voting more than once on each topic. Maybe you should have campaigned at any time before now to change the fact we can vote ten times on something and it's still not against the rules.
    Dipsy wrote: »
    I truly hope that everybody gets out to vote and, with no malice intended - anyone who is thinking of voting yes! Get your head out of your backside!!! The facts are there! Research this! ! ! Why are you so afraid of the truth. The truth will set you free. I know its scary but life after lisbon will be even scarier. Get over yourselves now and your decking and your jeeps and think about the future generation. Is it really that hard to believe that your government is lying to you. I dont know whether to laugh or cry :(:o;):pac::confused:

    I love the truth which is why I'm turning more and more against the No campaign as each day passes. Now I really dislike our current government and I wouldn't trust them to run a children's party. But when we have nearly all of our political parties, all of our media organisations, most of our academics etc etc, supporting Lisbon well maybe, just maybe it really is good for us.

    Maybe you should tell me exactly what is in Lisbon that I should be worried about?


  • #1857
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Dipsy wrote: »
    Hi everyone, I personally shall be voting no. I voted no the last time and I am voting no again.

    I am so disheartened that we have to vote again. I was raised with the fighting irish spirit in me and I am quite saddened that we have just rolled over and taken all of this.

    I truly hope that everybody gets out to vote and, with no malice intended - anyone who is thinking of voting yes! Get your head out of your backside!!! The facts are there! Research this! ! ! Why are you so afraid of the truth. The truth will set you free. I know its scary but life after lisbon will be even scarier. Get over yourselves now and your decking and your jeeps and think about the future generation. Is it really that hard to believe that your government is lying to you. I dont know whether to laugh or cry :(:o;):pac::confused:

    But then, I am also of the belief that I create what I think.. so......... guess this is all my fault then.... :D

    Not sure if this has been posted.... It is legally correct and 100% fact.

    http://wethepeopleofeire.com/thelisbontreaty.html

    Why believe them? Why decide something so important as your vote on a Internet website that is biased and is telling you what you want to hear?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • #1858
    Dipsy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 40 ✭Dipsy


    Forgive me I missed both points there :confused:

    Lies? ? ?

    And in regards to the breakdown on the 13 facts about Lisbon :DIts in red, its underlined!! :eek: :eek: LOL

    Read between the lines.

    The point I was trying to make, was, I am not proud to be part of this undemocratic re- vote, when..... we already voted. Those that think its ok for us to have to vote again.... (oooops, wrong answer kids, off you go now, go back and give us the right answer this time...) have obviously missed the point too :(

    do you not see something wrong with this picture?????


  • #1859
    Dinner
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,132 ✭✭✭Dinner


    Dipsy wrote: »
    The point I was trying to make, was, I am not proud to be part of this undemocratic re- vote, when..... we already voted. Those that think its ok for us to have to vote again.... (oooops, wrong answer kids, off you go now, go back and give us the right answer this time...) have obviously missed the point too :(

    do you not see something wrong with this picture?????

    Why is it undemocratic to vote again once some of the issues have been solved?

    You can keep dribbling out this "wrong answer, try again" bullsh!t if you want, but that doesn't make it true.


  • #1860
    K-9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,313 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Dipsy wrote: »
    Forgive me I missed both points there :confused:

    Lies? ? ?

    And in regards to the breakdown on the 13 facts about Lisbon :DIts in red, its underlined!! :eek: :eek: LOL

    Read between the lines.

    The point I was trying to make, was, I am not proud to be part of this undemocratic re- vote, when..... we already voted. Those that think its ok for us to have to vote again.... (oooops, wrong answer kids, off you go now, go back and give us the right answer this time...) have obviously missed the point too :(

    do you not see something wrong with this picture?????

    Some people who voted No will vote Yes with guarantees on taxation and the Commissioner.

    They voted No for those reasons and now want to vote again. They want to change their mind.

    Is that not allowed?

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Advertisement
  • #1861
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Dipsy wrote: »
    Forgive me I missed both points there :confused:

    Lies? ? ?

    And in regards to the breakdown on the 13 facts about Lisbon :DIts in red, its underlined!! :eek: :eek: LOL

    Read between the lines.

    The point I was trying to make, was, I am not proud to be part of this undemocratic re- vote, when..... we already voted. Those that think its ok for us to have to vote again.... (oooops, wrong answer kids, off you go now, go back and give us the right answer this time...) have obviously missed the point too :(

    do you not see something wrong with this picture?????

    As far as I can gather, they justify it with one of the following points:

    1: It's ok to re run it since the main reason people voted no last time was that they didn't understand the treaty and now it has been explained to them.

    2: The new guarantees mean that people's concerns have now been addressed. (I accept this point only if every guarantee is 100% legally binding and cannot be revoked in the future without our consent - the people's consent, not just the government's. Also, the guarantees have not addressed my own concern which is the erosion of national sovereignty.)

    3: It's ok to run it, no reason needed. No one ever said you couldn't be asked the same question more than once in light of "changed circumstances" (what "changed circumstances"?)


    4: A referendum shouldn't ever have been necessary and was just a formality. In a representative democracy, you hand over power to the government and they can do whatever they like until their time is up, with or without a genuine public mandate for it.

    Now I'm not necessarily saying there's anything wrong with that opinion, it's just that I'm no real fan of our form of representative democracy to begin with, I think it's a cataclysmic failure and the government should be required to serve the wishes of the people rather than the party agenda. That is my own personal opinion however and you have every right to disagree with it.


Advertisement