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911 revisited

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  • #152
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    Why do you think the sender, wasn't questioned?
    Because they couldn't find him perhaps?
    Or the did and didn't find anything suspicious?
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    If it was so, and if it was just some crazy coincidence/practical joke or whatever that it didn't come to light with the public to clear up an confusion? Likewise, why not reveal the actual contents of the message?

    Wasn't there a 9/11 commission for the purposes of clarity?
    Well but the public does know about it. The company made a statement.

    But why was this message send then at all if some people had foreknowledge?
    And why send it to Israel?
    Why did the company make a statement about it?
    Why didn't they fake catching the guy who sent it and connect him to the terrorists?


  • #153
    Black Uhlan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭Black Uhlan


    Certainly warrants investigation by the authorities. Look, either it has significance or it does not. If it is ultimately of no importance, or not of a sensitive nature with regards to security then please out of respect to the victims and their families please share this. If it was a failed investigation, please share this. If it is a case where there is something more then let the people now. No idea why the media don't follow up on things like this...The silence just suggests that there is something to hide to me.


  • #154
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    Certainly warrants investigation by the authorities. Look, either it has significance or it does not. If it is ultimately of no importance, or not of a sensitive nature with regards to security then please out of respect to the victims and their families please share this. If it was a failed investigation, please share this. If it is a case where there is something more then let the people now. No idea why the media don't follow up on things like this...The silence just suggests that there is something to hide to me.
    So if they're covering up the investigation, why couldn't they cover up the initial breaking news?


  • #155
    Black Uhlan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭Black Uhlan


    so if they are not covering up any investigation please link to it.


  • #156
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    so if they are not covering up any investigation please link to it.
    Mmh it's mentioned in the link we're talking about.
    Not being continuously covered by the press does not equal a cover up.

    So if they are covering it up how come there was initial reports?

    Oh and all those other questions I asked are still unanswered BTW.


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  • #157
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    "having Israeli's in place where there Israeli's...isn't odd" seriously, I have no clue where you are going with this.

    Come on man, try to read the info at least. 1. Their "neighbour" was never their neighbour to begin with, as far as I can make out no details are given as to were these guys lived. Neighbour was mentioned in a headline of an news piece I read, please tell me you are not just reading the headlines. 2. The "neighbour" did not report them because they were "speaking arabic", she reported them because they they were posing for pictures with the burning tower as a backdrop, celebrating the attack and at the latest in the minutes after the first plane hit.

    Can we agree on this? I'd like you to think about it for just a second if you would...Bare in mind this is before the world was aware it was not just a terrible accident. It is what I thought at the time as I watched live, Pres Bush even saw fit to continue reading his childrens book. Surely noone would be compelled to celebrate a plane crash? And anyone who would possess such pschyopathic tendencies would surely keep any feelings to themselves? What chance of five individuals to record, dance, and celebrate on top of their van to get a better shot of a plane crash? Almost Zero I would say. But...would it make more sense if they were celebrating and recording the succesful completion of the greatest crime of all time?

    When you said this ..."So given the language differences they might have been laughing or maybe they were just excited or maybe that's just the way young people who speak Hebrew come across to English speakers,"

    I have no idea what you are getting at. Seriously, are you trying to say laughing sounds different in Hebrew? I know there is a scarcity of Jews in Ireland, especially those who speak Hebrew but I don't live there any more and I can assure you, as an English speaker myself that "young people who speak "Hebrew" do not come across as people celebrating and recording an apparent terrible tragedy.

    "they were just dickheads" perhaps but it really doesn't explain anything. If you haven't already please read these two short links. They were the best I could find from the NT Times and ABC. http://web.archive.org/web/20020802194310/http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html http://www.crimelynx.com/dozens.html
    They answer most of the questions that I believe you would have to establish that it is all a little fishy.

    Without going through all this again, I've read your articles. And unless I'm missing something there seems to be no evidence that these Israelis did anything other than overstay their holiday visas. Am I missing something?


  • #158
    Black Uhlan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭Black Uhlan


    Look I don't think this can go any farther. We both know as little as each other, which is almost nothing. My take on it is that if there was any possibility that information was relayed giving any advanced warning I strongly feel that this should be investigated to a final conclusion. You apparently do not feel that it justifies investigation? or that a group of 'furniture movers' pose for photographs with cheesy grins as if they have the Eiffel Tower behind them when in fact it is the burning soon to be rubble killing thousands WTC building. Correct me if I am wrong here?

    I'm not trying to point the finger at Israel, but it appears to me now that they may have had some knowledge. Much like here in the Al-Qaeda hotel bombings in Jordan, 2005

    "Hours before the bombings, many Israelis were evacuated from the Radisson SAS, one of the hotels hit in the attacks, apparently due to a specific security alert. http://web.archive.org/web/20051124120525/http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/643639.html


  • #159
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    You apparently do not feel that it justifies investigation?
    No.
    A internet message to random two people that offers no specifics at all doesn't really warrant an investigation.
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    or that a group of 'furniture movers' pose for photographs with cheesy grins as if they have the Eiffel Tower behind them when in fact it is the burning soon to be rubble killing thousands WTC building. Correct me if I am wrong here?
    You'll have to explain how this proves they had foreknowledge.


  • #160
    Black Uhlan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭Black Uhlan


    meglome wrote: »
    Without going through all this again, I've read your articles. And unless I'm missing something there seems to be no evidence that these Israelis did anything other than overstay their holiday visas. Am I missing something?

    Appears to me yes, the whole dancing, laughing, smiling, documenting part of a tragedy/operation. Their links to the intelligence service, the fact that he had 5K in his sock, the maps, the fake passports, the explosive traces in the van. The Urban Moving Systems owner fleeing the country a couple of days later. This can not all be written off as just them being "dickheads"


  • #161
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    Look I don't think this can go any farther. We both know as little as each other, which is almost nothing. My take on it is that if there was any possibility that information was relayed giving any advanced warning I strongly feel that this should be investigated to a final conclusion. You apparently do not feel that it justifies investigation? or that a group of 'furniture movers' pose for photographs with cheesy grins as if they have the Eiffel Tower behind them when in fact it is the burning soon to be rubble killing thousands WTC building. Correct me if I am wrong here?

    I'm not trying to point the finger at Israel, but it appears to me now that they may have had some knowledge. Much like here in the Al-Qaeda hotel bombings in Jordan, 2005

    "Hours before the bombings, many Israelis were evacuated from the Radisson SAS, one of the hotels hit in the attacks, apparently due to a specific security alert. http://web.archive.org/web/20051124120525/http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/spages/643639.html

    Maybe you should have tried this link http://web.archive.org/web/20051124034944/www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/643661.html


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  • #162
    Black Uhlan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭Black Uhlan


    King Mob wrote: »
    No.
    A internet message to random two people that offers no specifics at all doesn't really warrant an investigation.


    You'll have to explain how this proves they had foreknowledge.

    A minimum of 2, and hardly random they both worked in the same office, in the same city for the same company that happens to the company who provides the messaging service. And this company happens to be two blocks sway from the world trade center. I have no idea about Odigo, but perhaps they have Mossad ties themselves, would make sense as an asset.


  • #163
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    Appears to me yes, the whole dancing, laughing, smiling, documenting part of a tragedy/operation. Their links to the intelligence service, the fact that he had 5K in his sock, the maps, the fake passports, the explosive traces in the van. The Urban Moving Systems owner fleeing the country a couple of days later. This can not all be written off as just them being "dickheads"

    One person reported this. ONE. Seems conclusive to me.

    And to be honest if I was an Israeli and these stories came out I'd make myself scare too. You could be lynched for even the suggestion that you were involved.


  • #164
    Black Uhlan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭Black Uhlan


    meglome wrote: »
    Maybe you should have tried this link http://web.archive.org/web/20051124034944/www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/643661.html

    Ha, you got me. However, that would explain the 1 death, an Arab-Israeli.


  • #165
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    A minimum of 2, and hardly random they both worked in the same office, in the same city for the same company that happens to the company who provides the messaging service.
    And have you any evidence that more than two people got this message?
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    And this company happens to be two blocks sway from the world trade center.
    You realise that there are probably hundreds of businesses within 2 blocks of the WTC?
    And the the messages where sent to employees in Israel?
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    I have no idea about Odigo, but perhaps they have Mossad ties themselves, would make sense as an asset.
    You don't know anything about the company so your just going to make something up about them?
    That makes sense alright.


  • #166
    Black Uhlan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭Black Uhlan


    meglome wrote: »
    One person reported this. ONE. Seems conclusive to me.

    And to be honest if I was an Israeli and these stories came out I'd make myself scare too. You could be lynched for even the suggestion that you were involved.

    THE FBI had the photographs, their own legal representatives talked about them. This in not in dispute.


  • #167
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    Appears to me yes, the whole dancing, laughing, smiling,
    Yep that's exactly what a covert monitering unit would be doing during a mission alright.
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    documenting part of a tragedy/operation.
    You mean like the thousands of other people who were doing the exact same thing?
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    Their links to the intelligence service,
    Even if the did have these links it doesn't show that they had foreknowledge.
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    the fact that he had 5K in his sock,
    Not one of the source I've read has claimed this.
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    the maps,
    Can't think of a single reason why there'd be a map in a moving van.
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    the fake passports,
    All the other sources I've seen say they were foreign passports not fake ones.
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    the explosive traces in the van.
    There wasn't any.
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    The Urban Moving Systems owner fleeing the country a couple of days later.
    And this proves what exactly?
    He was under investigation for immigration violations.
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    This can not all be written off as just them being "dickheads"
    And none of it show they had foreknowledge.


  • #168
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    THE FBI had the photographs, their own legal representatives talked about them. This in not in dispute.

    So? Does any of that mean they did anything wrong?


  • #169
    Black Uhlan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭Black Uhlan


    meglome wrote: »
    So? Does any of that mean they did anything wrong?

    Alas, we will know because the investigation was shut down due to political pressure.


  • #170
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    Alas, we will know because the investigation was shut down due to political pressure.

    No it wasn't.
    the men were released because they "did not know anything about 9/11".
    There was a two month investigation.

    At least try to get your facts straight.

    And there's still no evidence they had foreknowledge.


  • #171
    Black Uhlan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭Black Uhlan


    quote=King Mob;61860751]Yep that's exactly what a covert monitering unit would be doing during a mission alright.[/quote]

    Who said they were a monitoring unit?
    King Mob wrote: »
    You mean like the thousands of other people who were doing the exact same thing?
    TELL YOU WHAT: YOU FIND 1 SINGLE EXAMPLE OF ANYONE CELEBRATING WHILE THEY WERE RECORDING or taking photo's. JUST 1. BONUS POINTS IF YOU CAN GET A PHOTO OF ANYONE HOLDING A LIGHTER UP IN THE FOREGROUND WITH THE RUINS OF A WTC TOWER IN THE BACKGROUND. I Bet you can't!

    http://www.crimelynx.com/dozens.html
    The five aroused attention in New Jersey after people noticed them going to unusual lengths to photograph the World Trade Center ruins and making light of the situation. One photograph developed by the F.B.I. showed Sivan Kurzberg holding a lighted lighter in the foreground, with the smoldering wreckage in the background, said Steven Noah Gordon, a lawyer for the five.

    King Mob wrote: »
    Even if the did have these links it doesn't show that they had foreknowledge.

    I agree. But, they were recording after the first tower was hit ONLY. On the talk show they said they were "documenting the event" because of the daily terror in Israel. HOW DID THEY KNOW IT WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK WHEN THE REST OF THE WORLD DIDN'T?
    King Mob wrote: »
    Not one of the source I've read has claimed this.

    Can't think of a single reason why there'd be a map in a moving van.

    All the other sources I've seen say they were foreign passports not fake ones.

    "From inside the vehicle the officers, who were quickly joined by agents from the FBI, retrieved multiple passports and $4,700 in cash stuffed in a sock. According to New Jersey's Bergen Record, which on September 12 reported the arrest of the five Israelis, an investigator high up in the Bergen County law enforcement hierarchy stated that officers had also discovered in the vehicle "maps of the city with certain places highlighted. It looked like they're hooked in with this", the source told the Record, referring to the 9/11 attacks. "It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park."

    King Mob wrote: »
    And this proves what exactly?
    He was under investigation for immigration violations.

    It suggests that he had something to hide. Look you don't have to be Poirot to realise this is suspicous. I have no clue as to why you seem incapable of admitting this. Perhaps as it does not fit in with the official narrative, which I assume is your take on it it therefore challenges your own personal infallability on the issue?

    FYI here are the penalties for hiring illegal aliens

    http://www.nvo.com/beaulier/penaltiesforemployingundocumentedworkers/

    There are civil and criminal penalties for hiring illegal aliens. Sec. 274A of the Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) and 8 U.S.C. 1324a, makes it unlawful for any person knowingly to hire, recruit or refer for a fee any alien not authorized to work. An employer that violates these laws can face penalties of:

    · $250 to $2,000 fine for each unauthorized individual;

    · $2,000 to $5,000 for each employee if the employer has previously been in violation; or

    · $3,000 to $10,000 for each individual if the employer was subject to more than one cease and desist order.

    The employer could also be fined $100 to $1,000 for each individual “paperwork” violation.

    The criminal penalties for a pattern and practice violation can be up to $3,000 for each unauthorized alien, imprisonment up to six months, or both.

    So a maximum fine of 15,000 dollars if I am correct? And that is only if it could be proven that they were knowingly hired as illegal.

    Can you honestly, honestly, tell me this is valid reason to leave your business, home, and country and go on the run??

    http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=123885&page=2
    The FBI searched Urban Moving's offices for several hours, removing boxes of documents and a dozen computer hard drives.
    There are legal means to hire foreign workers on a temporary or permanent basis and our office can help you explore your options.

    Hardly standard practice for visa violations.


    King Mob wrote: »
    And none of it show they had foreknowledge.

    This account suggests otherwise

    http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/13/us/after-the-attacks-the-investigation-bin-laden-tie-cited.html?scp=1&sq=Spetember%2013%202001%20five%20men%20&st=cse

    Separately, officials said a group of about five men were now under investigation in Union City, suspected of assisting the hijackers. In addition, the officials said the men had apparently set up cameras near the Hudson River and fixed them on the World Trade Center. They photographed the attacks and were said to have congratulated each other afterward, officials said.

    One last point. Someone mentioned that they were apparently speaking in Arabic. Can anyone confirm this?


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  • #172
    Black Uhlan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 283 ✭✭Black Uhlan


    King Mob wrote: »
    No it wasn't.


    There was a two month investigation.

    At least try to get your facts straight.

    And there's still no evidence they had foreknowledge.

    The investigation was 2 months in this is something different.


  • #173
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    Who said they were a monitoring unit?
    You did.
    Why do you keep pointing out that "they were there to document the event."
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    TELL YOU WHAT: YOU FIND 1 SINGLE EXAMPLE OF ANYONE CELEBRATING WHILE THEY WERE RECORDING or taking photo's. JUST 1. BONUS POINTS IF YOU CAN GET A PHOTO OF ANYONE HOLDING A LIGHTER UP IN THE FOREGROUND WITH THE RUINS OF A WTC TOWER IN THE BACKGROUND. I Bet you can't!

    http://www.crimelynx.com/dozens.html
    The five aroused attention in New Jersey after people noticed them going to unusual lengths to photograph the World Trade Center ruins and making light of the situation. One photograph developed by the F.B.I. showed Sivan Kurzberg holding a lighted lighter in the foreground, with the smoldering wreckage in the background, said Steven Noah Gordon, a lawyer for the five.
    I was referring to the thousands of people who had cameras and were "documenting the event."
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    I agree. But, they were recording after the first tower was hit ONLY. On the talk show they said they were "documenting the event" because of the daily terror in Israel. HOW DID THEY KNOW IT WAS A TERRORIST ATTACK WHEN THE REST OF THE WORLD DIDN'T?
    Because they gave this interview after 9/11.
    They didn't say they were documenting a terrorist attack during the attack.
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    "From inside the vehicle the officers, who were quickly joined by agents from the FBI, retrieved multiple passports and $4,700 in cash stuffed in a sock. According to New Jersey's Bergen Record, which on September 12 reported the arrest of the five Israelis, an investigator high up in the Bergen County law enforcement hierarchy stated that officers had also discovered in the vehicle "maps of the city with certain places highlighted. It looked like they're hooked in with this", the source told the Record, referring to the 9/11 attacks. "It looked like they knew what was going to happen when they were at Liberty State Park."
    So you honestly can't think why there might be a map of places and time in a moving van?
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    It suggests that he had something to hide. Look you don't have to be Poirot to realise this is suspicous. I have no clue as to why you seem incapable of admitting this. Perhaps as it does not fit in with the official narrative, which I assume is your take on it it therefore challenges your own personal infallability on the issue?
    Can you honestly, honestly, tell me this is valid reason to leave your business, home, and country and go on the run??
    You might of heard something like "innocent till proven guilty."?

    There is no evidence he had foreknowledge.
    And since neither of us have the full story we can't conclude why he left the country.
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Story?id=123885&page=2
    The FBI searched Urban Moving's offices for several hours, removing boxes of documents and a dozen computer hard drives.
    There are legal means to hire foreign workers on a temporary or permanent basis and our office can help you explore your options.

    Hardly standard practice for visa violations.
    Not exactly something you'd do to someone in on your plot either.
    Black Uhlan wrote: »
    This account suggests otherwise

    http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/13/us/after-the-attacks-the-investigation-bin-laden-tie-cited.html?scp=1&sq=Spetember%2013%202001%20five%20men%20&st=cse

    Separately, officials said a group of about five men were now under investigation in Union City, suspected of assisting the hijackers. In addition, the officials said the men had apparently set up cameras near the Hudson River and fixed them on the World Trade Center. They photographed the attacks and were said to have congratulated each other afterward, officials said.
    Yep we all know the sooner information is release the more accurate it is.

    And for probably the sixth time, the authorities concluded the men had nothing to do with 9/11.


  • #174
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Seriously am I missing something? The articles don't say they had foreknowledge, they don't say they did anything illegal other than over stay holiday visas. Some of these guys had ten lie detectors tests and came out clean.


  • #175
    Undergod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,858 ✭✭✭Undergod


    meglome wrote: »
    Seriously am I missing something? The articles don't say they had foreknowledge, they don't say they did anything illegal other than over stay holiday visas. Some of these guys had ten lie detectors tests and came out clean.

    Lie detectors are rubbish though.


  • #176
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    Undergod wrote: »
    Lie detectors are rubbish though.

    Not my overall point, after a two month investigation they had nothing on these guys.

    So while we can be suspicious of them there is nothing that shows they actually did anything.


  • #177
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,702 ✭✭✭squod


    meglome wrote: »
    Not my overall point, after a two month investigation they had nothing on these guys.

    So while we can be suspicious of them there is nothing that shows they actually did anything.


    You still deny anybody had fore knowledge, dispite guys turning up to film it and messages sent over Odigo forewarning an event.

    I suspect you're a very trusting person. I doubt any evidence will convince you of anything, ever.


  • #178
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    squod wrote: »
    You still deny anybody had fore knowledge, dispite guys turning up to film it
    Except the only witness that saw them do this clearly says they turned up after the first plane hit.
    squod wrote: »
    and messages sent over Odigo forewarning an event.
    Messages that contained absolutely no specifics at all.
    squod wrote: »
    I suspect you're a very trusting person. I doubt any evidence will convince you of anything, ever.
    The irony of some statements here are amazing.

    Is there any evidence that would convince you that there wasn't foreknowledge?


  • #179
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,702 ✭✭✭squod


    Witness said she seen them after the first plane hit. Different statement.

    There's a balance to consider, how much evidence either side is putting up.
    I don't see any evidence to suggest there was no fore knowledge.


  • #180
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,874 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    squod wrote: »
    Witness said she seen them after the first plane hit. Different statement.
    That's what I said.
    Or did you mean before the plane hit?
    squod wrote: »
    There's a balance to consider, how much evidence either side is putting up.
    I don't see any evidence to suggest there was no fore knowledge.

    Ok here's the thing.

    You can't prove a negative.
    The burden of proof in on the person making the claim.

    If you claim they had foreknowledge you have to show evidence that they did.
    That's how logic works.

    I'm saying there is no evidence to support the idea they had foreknowledge.
    No one has present any such evidence.


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  • #181
    meglome
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,980 ✭✭✭meglome


    squod wrote: »
    You still deny anybody had fore knowledge, dispite guys turning up to film it and messages sent over Odigo forewarning an event.

    I suspect you're a very trusting person. I doubt any evidence will convince you of anything, ever.

    There is NOTHING that says they had foreknowledge. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. They were filming after the first plane hit just like a lot of other people were. All of the original story say this. Where are you getting the information they had foreknowledge outside of (inside of) your own head?


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