UK's #1 online cycle store- CRC or Wiggle?

blorg · 28-08-2009 03:14PM #1

Just looked into this today for no particular reason. Apparently it is not all just bluster, they actually both use the same third party auditor (imrg.org) and the answer would seem to be that both are... or in other words that they are virtually tied and alternate month to month, either has been ahead at whatever point and so they both claim #1. For August, CRC comes in at #96 (interestingly just below Pixmania at #95, would have expected them to be higher) and Wiggle at #97.

Full details of the top 100 here

Bunnyhopper · 28-08-2009 03:41PM

But then Halfords are in at no. 49 so I guess that makes them the best...

I find CRC and Wiggle very close on price, delivery times, etc. I get the impression that Wiggle are better for roadie stuff than CRC, who seem to lean a little more to the MTB side of things. It's interesting that they seem to keep an eye on each other's websites. For example, the new currency and location settings widget on Wiggle looks to have been modelled on the one that CRC added.

blorg · 28-08-2009 03:49PM

As a rule I generally find CRC to be cheaper (especially now that Wiggle charge Irish VAT)... Wiggle generally are best only with their special offers (which can however be very good) or something CRC don't stock.

dave2pvd · 28-08-2009 05:50PM

Odd. I guess I expected PBK to be on there. Lot's of US riders order their groupsets from PBK. Tyres also. Once there's a tyre sale, word spreads like wildfire over here.

Beasty · 28-08-2009 06:07PM

Hitwise simply track internet traffic, which does not necessarily correlate to sales, and does not take into account other factors such as price and quality of service (although the more popular sites are likely to score highly in these areas, as those that do not will not benefit from as much repeat traffic)

Pricewise they look pretty similar for UK customers, but CRC has a significant advantage to Irish customers, as they apply the UK VAT rate of 15% (it will go back up to 17.5% from 1 January, and there are rumours it could go as high as 20%), whereas Wiggle are required to charge the Irish rate of 21.5%. Hence there is currently a price differential of around 6% (higher for helmets, which are zero rated in the UK)

However the more Irish business that CRC do, the more likely they will hit the thresshold for registering for Irish VAT, and they would then be required to charge the 21.5% rate (it is possible they have already reached this level, but not realised they need to apply Irish VAT - if this is the case it is only a matter of time before the UK tax authorities catch up with them, and this benefit would then disappear)

blorg · 28-08-2009 07:00PM

@dave2pvd- with most of these things you have to apply (and pay) to be audited and included in the stats, so possibly PBK just didn't... but I would suspect Wiggle and CRC are a bit bigger than PBK all the same. They have great offers PBK all right, I have bought enough stuff from them.

@Beasty- taken it is just traffic but probably something of an indicator of business. Possibly Wiggle sell more complete bikes and CRC more components though, they could have a higher turnover.

I found CRC to generally be cheaper even without the whole VAT issue with Wiggle. Wiggle used be A LOT more competitive but there was a point some time ago where they put up all their prices and ceased to be great value with anything not on sale. Almost anything that both CRC and Wiggle stock will be cheaper on CRC, even with the same VAT rate. Having said that when Wiggle have stuff discounted it can still be a good buy- and they are having a sale at the moment.

As regards CRC, there is no doubt in my mind that they are above the threshold where they should be charging local VAT to Irish and other EU customers (the threshold is very low) but I suspect they are happy to ignore this, UK VAT being so low as to give them a competitive advantage... It would not be the UK Revenue who would take a case (after all as things stand they are currently receiving all the VAT) but the Revenue from another member state CRC are shipping to.

As to whether they will be "caught up with" in this regard, there are scores of companies who sell across the EU above the thresholds yet do not register for VAT in their end markets, it is in no way uncommon... Compliance with the law in this regard seems pretty low, it is only the very biggest players that seem to do it.

Beasty · 28-08-2009 07:26PM

blorg wrote: »

@Beasty- taken it is just traffic but probably something of an indicator of business. Possibly Wiggle sell more complete bikes and CRC more components though, they could have a higher turnover.

Agreed

blorg wrote: »

It would not be the UK Revenue who would take a case (after all as things stand they are currently receiving all the VAT) but the Revenue from another member state CRC are shipping to.

You are absolutely right - for sales to Ireland it is the Irish Revenue that is losing out

blorg wrote: »

As to whether they will be "caught up with" in this regard, there are scores of companies who sell across the EU above the thresholds yet do not register for VAT in their end markets, it is in no way uncommon... Compliance with the law in this regard seems pretty low, it is only the very biggest players that seem to do it.

This is where I beg to differ. It is only a matter of time before the tax authorities catch up with these retailers, as Wiggle seem to have already found out (indeed Wiggle are likely to blow the whistle on others as it puts them at a competitive disadvantage).

The tax authorities will not simply stand by and let this happen because it is some other one that is losing out. They know that, once this discovered, they will then need to pass the VAT back over to (in this case) the Irish government.

In most countries the penalties for getting VAT wrong are probably the most punitive of all taxes, and the powers of the tax authorities in this area (for example to impose penalties, and seize assets) are much stronger than with other taxes.

rflynnr · 28-08-2009 08:02PM

Funny, until Blorg pointed it out, I'd never noticed an ongoing price distinction between CRC and Wiggle but as it happens I have a test case. Over the past nine months, I've assembled a complete Tiagra flatbar groupset (cassette, chain, f/r derailleurs, shifters, cranks, brakes and levers, plus bottom bracket). The whole lot came to €265.41 but everything other than the crank, bb, and cassette came from CRC. Indeed the crank and bb came from Ribble who I've often found competitive on groupset parts. Only the cassette came from Wiggle and I've a feeling that was only due to the absence of the relevant part from CRC.

blorg · 28-08-2009 08:13PM

Beasty wrote: »

This is where I beg to differ. It is only a matter of time before the tax authorities catch up with these retailers

AFAIK this has been the law since 2003 (six years ago), and the threshold in Ireland for VAT registration is €35,000 worth of sales per calendar year... and yet the vast majority of foreign retailers still charge their local VAT rate. So the evidence seems to point to it not being chased up. (Long may it continue.)

Beasty · 28-08-2009 08:46PM

blorg wrote: »

AFAIK this has been the law since 2003 (six years ago), and the threshold in Ireland for VAT registration is €35,000 worth of sales per calendar year... and yet the vast majority of foreign retailers still charge their local VAT rate. So the evidence seems to point to it not being chased up. (Long may it continue.)

Current registration limit is €70,000 for goods (but remains €35,000 for services, although this is not relevant to CRC). If (non-VAT exempt) sales into Ireland exceed this amount, the retailer is required to register for Irish VAT. This is the responsibility of the retailer, who could face stiff penalties for failing to comply.

Unless they are subject to a specific enquiry, it is possible this would not be picked up by the UK Inland Revenue. However once sales to other EU countries (including Ireland) exceed £270,000, the taxpayer is required to file "Intrastat" returns, which will alert the tax authorities to the level of cross-border sales on a country by country basis. Once they reach this thresshold the taxpayer will tick a box on their normal VAT return, and will then be required to make the relevant returns. It is possible that Wiggle have been caught out through this process, but that CRC have not yet reached this (higher) thresshold (although this does not get them out of registering for Irish VAT if above the €70k limit)

blorg · 28-08-2009 08:55PM

The Irish Revenue say €35,000 with no mention of a distinction between goods and services.

copacetic · 28-08-2009 09:01PM

wiggle for me, crc are good on price, poor on selection of brands for me. Also crc site is much less user friendly and they are very slow to respond to questions. They also have a habit of advertising a price that only the xxl in pink is actually available at. Wiggle generally don't put certain sizes and/or colours on sale and not others.
Although wiggle has a lot of running stuff too which keeps me interested. Generally as mentioned above I only buy sale items on wiggle.

Beasty · 28-08-2009 09:10PM

blorg wrote: »

The Irish Revenue say €35,000 with no mention of a distinction between goods and services.

You are right again Blorg - I was picking up the registration limit for suppliers of goods based in Ireland (and even then was picking up the old limit - it's now €75k):o

nomadic · 28-08-2009 09:13PM

copacetic wrote: »

. Also crc site is much less user friendly

I much prefer the CRC site. Don't like the way wiggle doesn't list pictures of everything.

kavanagh_h · 28-08-2009 09:21PM

[QUOTE=...whereas Wiggle are required to charge the Irish rate of 21.5%. Hence there is currently a price differential of around 6% (higher for helmets, which are zero rated in the UK)
(QUOTE]

That's something new that I have just learned. I am very sad to hear it. I never thought that could happen.:(

UK's #1 online cycle store- CRC or Wiggle?

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