Irish Open 2010 - Structure

roleynoley · 24-08-2009 01:52PM

D.C.C wrote: »

Well Roleynoley it's not bull!!!I said maybe possible and would have to be allowed for...600 players approx with 10k extra in play thats 6,000,000....So depending on how quick or slow the play is,any good tournament organiser would allow for it possibly going on that long.Because the final day is usually just final table on t.v....

To be honest i'm probably wasting time typing this,because of your last comment your probably not the smartest cookie in the jar!!!

LOL!!!!!!

roleynoley · 24-08-2009 01:53PM

nicnicnic wrote: »

I doubt there has been anyone more critical of the IO structure over the last few years then myself so credit where its due, these are huge improvements.

If I was asked how to improve on this new structure I'd add an extra 2k in chips. For me this would then be close to the optimally balanced game.

+1

DAMO72 · 24-08-2009 02:58PM

I think it's clear to see what Noel's objective was by posting this thread, At least he has something to show the power's that be when and if they ever listen to him.

doke · 24-08-2009 03:56PM

roleynoley wrote: »

+1

+2.

Actually, I think it's really +3, as a man of Noel's build surely counts as 2 on his own.

boba_fett3099 · 24-08-2009 04:32PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The lower running costs is an explanation for the lower juice, but I fail to see how it is relevant with regards to the tournament structure?

Dealers wages! Also more players still in the ME means less players in the side events/playing cash games which is what its all about from the Merrion/Jackpot's pov

DAMO72 · 24-08-2009 04:37PM

boba_fett3099 wrote: »

Dealers wages! Also more players still in the ME means less players in the side events/playing cash games which is what its all about from the Merrion/Jackpot's pov

I thought it was about an instatution and not greed

LuckyLloyd · 24-08-2009 06:08PM

boba_fett3099 wrote: »

Dealers wages! Also more players still in the ME means less players in the side events/playing cash games which is what its all about from the Merrion/Jackpot's pov

As Noel has explained on the forum here before, the tournament is a loss leader from Paddy Power's perspective. It seems to me that if you view the tournament as a marketing exercise and a method of representing your brand to the wider poker community, you would like the tournament itself to stand comfortably beside other events of a similar stature. And if you aren't going to make money on it anyway, then..?

To look at it from another angle, I'd be fairly certain that if you asked the players putting money down to play the event (or those who satted in) whether they'd prefer a limited budget to be focused on the dealers / expenses required to have a significantly improved structure, in the stead of the musical acts and assorted gimmicks in the lobby it wouldn't really be close.

And from the Merrion's perspective, adding an extra day's play to the weekend would surely balance out the slower dropout rate of those participating in the Main Event?

Ultimately, we can beat around the bush here to our heart's content. But it won't change the fact that the real impediment to a significant overhaul of the tournament (and impactful flexibility with respect to the tournament structure) squarely lies in the intransigence of a single individual. I was in here in 2007 and 2008 screaming blue murder about this and that with respect to the tournament - I had to learn that such shouting and roaring is the definition of wasted energy.

All I've wanted to do in this particular thread is plainly demonstrate that the IO 2010 ME structure remains (despite the improvements) relatively bad value when compared to similar events held around the world. I'm sure Noel and his colleagues will pass on that message (and have been to the best of their ability) to those with fingers in their ears. Fair enough.

corkie123 · 24-08-2009 08:12PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As Noel has explained on the forum here before, the tournament is a loss leader from Paddy Power's perspective. It seems to me that if you view the tournament as a marketing exercise and a method of representing your brand to the wider poker community, you would like the tournament itself to stand comfortably beside other events of a similar stature. And if you aren't going to make money on it anyway, then..?

To look at it from another angle, I'd be fairly certain that if you asked the players putting money down to play the event (or those who satted in) whether they'd prefer a limited budget to be focused on the dealers / expenses required to have a significantly improved structure, in the stead of the musical acts and assorted gimmicks in the lobby it wouldn't really be close.

And from the Merrion's perspective, adding an extra day's play to the weekend would surely balance out the slower dropout rate of those participating in the Main Event?

Ultimately, we can beat around the bush here to our heart's content. But it won't change the fact that the real impediment to a significant overhaul of the tournament (and impactful flexibility with respect to the tournament structure) squarely lies in the intransigence of a single individual. I was in here in 2007 and 2008 screaming blue murder about this and that with respect to the tournament - I had to learn that such shouting and roaring is the definition of wasted energy.

All I've wanted to do in this particular thread is plainly demonstrate that the IO 2010 ME structure remains (despite the improvements) relatively bad value when compared to similar events held around the world. I'm sure Noel and his colleagues will pass on that message (and have been to the best of their ability) to those with fingers in their ears. Fair enough.

+ 1

________________________________________________________

westlife · 24-08-2009 08:36PM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

As Noel has explained on the forum here before, the tournament is a loss leader from Paddy Power's perspective. It seems to me that if you view the tournament as a marketing exercise and a method of representing your brand to the wider poker community, you would like the tournament itself to stand comfortably beside other events of a similar stature. And if you aren't going to make money on it anyway, then..?

1 -To look at it from another angle, I'd be fairly certain that if you asked the players putting money down to play the event (or those who satted in) whether they'd prefer a limited budget to be focused on the dealers / expenses required to have a significantly improved structure, in the stead of the musical acts and assorted gimmicks in the lobby it wouldn't really be close.

2- And from the Merrion's perspective, adding an extra day's play to the weekend would surely balance out the slower dropout rate of those participating in the Main Event?

answer to 1- to save further money why not find a big shed somewhere, some barrels and flat boards as tables and the reg fee would be a fraction what it is now ( also bring a packed lunch). Have NO bar in the shed and this will ensure that people's 'expenditure' would be improved dramatically and make it the best valued tourney in the world.

answer to 2- adding an extra day's play will cost the reg to be increased as the hotel will be looking for €10,000 - €15,000 room hire for an addition day's use! Where is the money saved now?

Is there anybody out there that did not think that the entertainment provided added to the whole character of the event? I have been to a lot of events and find that the atmosphere created by the entertainment went towards making the event what it was! It has to be different to every other event because its the Irish open, the holy grail in Irish poker, and the fact that PPP try and make it a bit different / special should be applauded. I talked to so many English, French, Americans and people from all over the world and they say that these efforts from the organisers to make this not only a great poker tourney, but a special social event, is why they come back year after year to support the festival. If the powers that be (no pun intended) decide to concede to the pressure of people and change to 15,000 SS then what happens when the numerous people that have voiced their opinion that the structure is fine, the way it has been updated, begin a thread complaining that they believe the original SS of 10,000 was better? You are never going to please all the people all the time. Simple solution. If anybody feels so strongly about the 'poor starting stack' then exercise your right as a free individual and don't play any Sats, Supersats or buy-in's to the greatest tourney in Europe. The Paddy Power Poker Irish Open is not the only tournament around Europe that has this level of buy in and thanks to Ryan Air you can get yourself to any tournament around Europe for €60.00 return! No, the venue, Bar facilities, entertainment and that chance to make you a poker legend in Ireland for the rest of your life is what brings us, and all the players from around the world, back year after year.

We are all entitled to our opinions but I feel the more pressure put on the organisers the more they will feel 'cornered' into upholding their decision on the starting stack. Let Noel go back and talk to the decision makers and maybe they will rethink the starting stack. But if they feel like they are being 'told' what to do they will have the attitude that any one of us would have in the same situation if it was our tournament... 'It's our tournament and will do what we like'

Paul Spillane · 25-08-2009 02:01PM

I think the changes are excellent.
Personally i would request less chips, more chips = more edge for the better players; you only have to look at the last 3 winners, all world class (and look again at the f/t in 2007, one of the best ever?)

Out of curiousity question: Would you play in an event based on this structure but you had an either or option. You could either
A) pay €3000 for 20,000 chips or

€1500 for 10,000 chips.

If you would play, what option would you take?

doke · 25-08-2009 04:11PM

Paul Spillane wrote: »

I think the changes are excellent.
Personally i would request less chips, more chips = more edge for the better players; you only have to look at the last 3 winners, all world class (and look again at the f/t in 2007, one of the best ever?)

Out of curiousity question: Would you play in an event based on this structure but you had an either or option. You could either
A) pay €3000 for 20,000 chips or
€1500 for 10,000 chips.

If you would play, what option would you take?

Interesting question. Some rebuys work like that - you can rebuy straight away and I always do so I'd pay the €3000.

Even better are tournaments where you can rebuy or add on at a lower cost per chip than the initial buyin. That gives the better players not only more chips to play with, but also means increased equity due to some players not taking the additional chips.

LuckyLloyd · 25-08-2009 04:14PM

Paul Spillane wrote: »

Out of curiousity question: Would you play in an event based on this structure but you had an either or option. You could either
A) pay €3000 for 20,000 chips or
€1500 for 10,000 chips.

If you would play, what option would you take?

You shouldn't buy in if you don't consider yourself to have an edge over the field. If you do assume an edge, then you should pick option A every time.

DAMO72 · 25-08-2009 04:42PM

Paul Spillane wrote: »

I think the changes are excellent.
Personally i would request less chips, more chips = more edge for the better players; you only have to look at the last 3 winners, all world class (and look again at the f/t in 2007, one of the best ever?)

Out of curiousity question: Would you play in an event based on this structure but you had an either or option. You could either
A) pay €3000 for 20,000 chips or
€1500 for 10,000 chips.

If you would play, what option would you take?

Can i take option C please , 20,000 chips €1500:D:D:D

Paul Spillane · 25-08-2009 06:04PM

doke wrote: »

Interesting question. Some rebuys work like that - you can rebuy straight away and I always do so I'd pay the €3000.

Even better are tournaments where you can rebuy or add on at a lower cost per chip than the initial buyin. That gives the better players not only more chips to play with, but also means increased equity due to some players not taking the additional chips.

Should have said, i based the question on a freezeout.

corkie123 · 25-08-2009 10:37PM

Paul Spillane wrote: »

I think the changes are excellent.
Personally i would request less chips, more chips = more edge for the better players; you only have to look at the last 3 winners, all world class (and look again at the f/t in 2007, one of the best ever?)

Out of curiousity question: Would you play in an event based on this structure but you had an either or option. You could either
A) pay €3000 for 20,000 chips or
€1500 for 10,000 chips.

If you would play, what option would you take?

more chips = more edge for the better players

:D good response

a lot of the good players cant see that lol

as for me i want 20k at least for my 3.5k to play tourie like this

smoothcall · 26-08-2009 02:52AM

Paul Spillane wrote: »

I think the changes are excellent.
Personally i would request less chips, more chips = more edge for the better players; you only have to look at the last 3 winners, all world class (and look again at the f/t in 2007, one of the best ever?)

Out of curiousity question: Would you play in an event based on this structure but you had an either or option. You could either
A) pay €3000 for 20,000 chips or
€1500 for 10,000 chips.

If you would play, what option would you take?

Interesting responses, My initial reaction was that it would be better to get in for €1500. Not sure why now, the whole tournament life thing maybe. Are 10,000 chips really worth that much more at the early stage when the structure is slow?

Altough i ussually double buy in at the start of a rebuy tournamet, provided a few on table do. So i really dont know which would be best.

Paul Spillane · 26-08-2009 02:45PM

smoothcall wrote: »

Interesting responses, My initial reaction was that it would be better to get in for €1500. Not sure why now, the whole tournament life thing maybe. Are 10,000 chips really worth that much more at the early stage when the structure is slow?

Altough i ussually double buy in at the start of a rebuy tournamet, provided a few on table do. So i really dont know which would be best.

I would wait and see what the majority did and then do the opposite. If i was unable to find out i defo pay 1,500 for 10k chips; perversly i'm sure i could argue either way as to what's the mathmatically optimum stratedgy.

Ollieboy · 26-08-2009 03:26PM

smoothcall wrote: »

Interesting responses, My initial reaction was that it would be better to get in for €1500. Not sure why now, the whole tournament life thing maybe. Are 10,000 chips really worth that much more at the early stage when the structure is slow?

Altough i ussually double buy in at the start of a rebuy tournamet, provided a few on table do. So i really dont know which would be best.

You always should rebuy even if nobody else does for the following reasons that I can think of straight away:

1. you can put pressure on smaller stacks you might not be willing to rebuy or overvalue there chips.
2. you can afford to see more flops.
3. if you get a monster hand and run it into another person who as also top up, than you can have a monster stack when the blinds are low.
4. People don't like to play against a bigger stack and you can afford to defend bb more easily.

Playing any rebuy event and not taking the rebuy option and top up is madness and makes no sense. The more chips you have the more easier it should be too force your edge.

5Aces · 23-09-2009 09:51PM

what is the way to assess the value of a tournament strucure when some have antes, progressive levels, ect.

Grafter · 24-09-2009 12:29AM

The last 2 pages confirm that both players and rival tourney organisers understand why the final table and more importantly the top three of the last few years of the Irish Open has turned out as it has. The best structure doesn't always produce the ideal commercial result. (No offence to Marty, but his after a deal win skews the results towards the commercial and away from the reality)

Paddy Power surely want as many as possible of their regular players/qualifiers to make the cash as possible and in an ideal world, beat a pro or better still another next door type to the title.

A turbo structure or indeed a deepstack structure from the start is no good as pros know how to play both better, so the advantage for the organiser is with a smallish starting stack that keeps the scaredy nitty qualifier out of pots and so lasting longer.

By introducing the extra levels scaredy nitty qualifier player can wait longer to ship with a good hand and will be allin less often but with better odds so the sponsors have better odds of a nice punter story.

5Aces · 24-09-2009 02:18AM

lol Devious!

OasisKid · 25-09-2009 04:01PM

Just wondering but could boylepoker not put on an event similiar to the irish open?

5Aces · 25-09-2009 06:22PM

id say the vast majority of money made on poker sites come from nl25, nl50 and $5 and $10 tournaments... boyles have it right with the IPO

fab-frankie · 04-01-2010 02:16AM

Simple fact is for a €3,500 buyin into a prestigious tourney such as the IO people expect a similar if not better structure than what they are accustomed to.
It would be great to see the starting stack increased!![/QUOTE]

agree totally with this, i'm planning on playing this event (first time):rolleyes:. but would be more comfortable with a 15k/20k$ starting stack.:(

spm1982 · 05-01-2010 05:20AM

DAMO72 wrote: »

Hi Noel , Im probably not the right person to comment on this as i haven't played an open yet. While Its great to see the blinds increase and the extra levels added , i think it would be a lot more appealing to punters to get the starting stack increased also. Just my opinion and i do hope to play in 2010

im a massive fan of your game damo and if u ever need staking just get back to me think this can be your breakout year

Norwich Fan Rob · 05-01-2010 05:41AM

i too will be playing this years IO, again, great to see the structure changes, will make it a much better game in the latter half, when it really matters.
I also agree with the majority that a bigger stack to start would help, it makes a big diff if u have 10 or 15k if u lose a 4-5k pot early on, which can easily happen. Personally, my record is vastly superior in 15k starting stack events than 10k, but hopefully i can put this right this time.
Im sure Noel and pp have done all they can to retify this starting stack situation, but i believe there are other people involved, who, lets just say, may be more old school and are reluctant to move away from the 10k starting stack.
Either way, im sure it will be a great event.

DAMO72 · 05-01-2010 11:46AM

spm1982 wrote: »

im a massive fan of your game damo and if u ever need staking just get back to me think this can be your breakout year

You know i think your right...:D. I will see if i can go it alone for a while 1st.
Thanks for the kind offer anyway and if you think you might need coaching to bring your own game up to scratch then get back to me

philcassidy · 05-01-2010 01:52PM

DAMO72 wrote: »

You know i think your right...:D. I will see if i can go it alone for a while 1st.
Thanks for the kind offer anyway and if you think you might need coaching to bring your own game up to scratch then get back to me

are you multi accounting again damo:D:D:D

gorrrr72 · 05-01-2010 02:02PM

Norwich Fan Rob wrote: »

i too will be playing this years IO, again, great to see the structure changes, will make it a much better game in the latter half, when it really matters.
I also agree with the majority that a bigger stack to start would help, it makes a big diff if u have 10 or 15k if u lose a 4-5k pot early on, which can easily happen. Personally, my record is vastly superior in 15k starting stack events than 10k, but hopefully i can put this right this time.
Im sure Noel and pp have done all they can to retify this starting stack situation, but i believe there are other people involved, who, lets just say, may be more old school and are reluctant to move away from the 10k starting stack.
Either way, im sure it will be a great event.

Yeah, I was sitting at the same table as you and Mr old school when this was being discussed in Citywest at the TEAMCOP and he didn't come up with one single justification for not increasing the starting stack. And everyone at the table agreed it is the way to go. But I guess we all just don't understand tournament poker structures the way he does:rolleyes:. I mean he has been around forever so it must mean he knows what's best.

DAMO72 · 05-01-2010 05:21PM

philcassidy wrote: »

are you multi accounting again damo:D:D:D

No , your just jealous cos i have a secret admirerer and all you have is bad beat stories ,:p Pllllllphhhhhh!:p:eek:

Irish Open 2010 - Structure

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