Railway Bridge

robinb · 25-08-2009 09:53AM

Just rereading - It's too easy to come across here in the wrong way. Shouldn't have posted at all - I'm not looking to be confrontational, hence why I use my real name.

Just wanted to make you aware of the tide and other services in the area from the water side not get into a mines bigger than yours.

Later,

-Robin.

Hooch · 25-08-2009 10:14AM

ivabiggon wrote: »

there is absolutely no way that any of those voluntary services would have been there before the fire brigade in swords or kilbarrack would have been and that would include the helicopter.
the heli from the airport has a half hour start up warm up time before been air bourne tho the fight is only 5-7 mins away, the fire brigade would have been long before, oh and any incident on land is the fire service responsibiliy not the coast gaurd

ivabiggon, for some reason you seem to be against any other service. DFB are not god, they are part of an overall bigger picture who are there to preserve life.

Start up time for Rescue 115 is not 30 mins, its about 6 while the crew are on station.

Tbh I think this is turning into a battle of who has the biggest p****!! If I was on the train, I would care who came to get me.....would any of ye??

robinb wrote: »

Just rereading - It's too easy to come across here in the wrong way. Shouldn't have posted at all - I'm not looking to be confrontational, hence why I use my real name.

Just wanted to make you aware of the tide and other services in the area from the water side not get into a mines bigger than yours.

Later,

-Robin.

Robin, there is very little Coast Guard posters here , please continue posting. Your experience is/will be valued. (as is your programme for SAR;))

Shield · 25-08-2009 11:07AM

ivabiggon wrote: »

there is absolutely no way that any of those voluntary services would have been there before the fire brigade in swords or kilbarrack would have been and that would include the helicopter.
the heli from the airport has a half hour start up warm up time before been air bourne tho the fight is only 5-7 mins away, the fire brigade would have been long before, oh and any incident on land is the fire service responsibiliy not the coast gaurd

It's rare that I echo a fellow moderator, but I agree that you didn't read robinb's post in full, and you are coming over as being arrogant and rude. The man said:

robinb wrote:

Howth RNLI Inshore (D-Class) would have been close to first on-scene in the water

...and he never said anything about whether they would assume command of the incident.

I am not prepared to allow you to unfairly condescend upon a Coast Guard Volunteer who attended the scene, and who deserves our respect and thanks, and instead is getting attitude and grief.

Last warning: Cop on.

Tango Alpha 51 · 25-08-2009 11:39AM

ivabiggon wrote: »

in all my time I've never seen doctor train or even travel on the ambulances or truck of the Dublin emergency service so they are not equip to deal with on site emergency's. so that would make them a potential liability,they may very well deal with "after extraction" in a triage area but not in the main incident.

Doctor's regularly go out on with the Ambulance Service. DFB operate 11/12 ambulances in Dublin so they are not the only 999 ambulance service in Dubin, the HSE NAS do respond to 999 calls aswell.

In saying that I do take ivabiggon's point about the doctors "liability". It really doesn't make sense to have doctors bang in the middle of the scene if they aren't trained or equipped to deal with same. They'd be better suited to the triage area where they can re-triage as per neccesary.

Ivabiggon,
Do ye use MIMMS as we do or do ye have a different standard?.

delly · 25-08-2009 02:06PM

If the train actually went into the water, regardless of what service the first 999 diallers asked for, I would expect that the first people in the water would be members of the the local marina. It would be natural instinct I would say for any members in Malahide to jump in there craft to give any assistance necessary. I would expect them in turn to get on to the radio to notify the Coastguard long before any ES arrived on site.

BizPost · 25-08-2009 06:35PM

Ivabiggon said the local stations have SRT capabilities. That mean Kilbarrack and Swords have SRT with dry suits that could enter the water straight away?

Agree those lifeboats can turn out in less than 5 minutes as staff work very close

supermedic · 25-08-2009 08:00PM

I have had the pleasure to work both inside and outside the Pale for nearly twenty years, I would suggest, that at best Ivabiggun, may be a firefighter. I have worked with many excellent fire crews in Dublin and have rarely found any officer, sub or station, to have the arrogance associated with some of his comments. The perceived or real tension that exists in the capital is almost non existent outside Dublin, because the retained guys have a very different attitude. I have many friends in the DFB, and probably like every organisation, like my own, there are people who get "carried away" with themselves. While no one disputes the fire services role in scene safety, you can be fairly sure if the worst happened the other day, every service would have worked well within and outside their remit, without conflict and for the benefit of the patients. The role of paramedics and advanced paramedics may not have included getting wet on the day in the same way firefighters would have carried stretchers as well as doing the extrications. But outside Dublin, everyday, HSE paramedics go far outside their remit to effect rescues, often before the fire service have arrived.

999/112 · 25-08-2009 11:22PM

robinb wrote: »

Wasn't going to reply - but I just want to put some facts straight after having walked out and stood on the collapsed section of bridge on Friday night myself in respect of water safety for the Coast Guard.

First, it was the highest tide of the year at 2am the following morning, but it was also the lowest-tide of the summer just after the point of collapse http://www.dusac.org/sites/default/files/images/Dublin_tide_range_2009.png

Low tide was around 8pm that night. The collapse occurred after 6pm. There is no way water was coming up between the tracks. I'm sure what he meant was between the sleepers he could see water (they remained on the tracks with the tracks still crossing). There would have been no splashing either, it's just too high.

I'm reasonably sure, if a call had of come in from Irish Rail (presumably the first to know or a bystander) to say "a train has derailed on the bridge into water" every button would have been hit. Taking into account you need to walk out on the bridge from parking a vehicle as we did that night, if the buttons were hit at the same time, Howth RNLI Inshore (D-Class) would have been close to first on-scene in the water based on their fast response time (they all work/live near the boat-house).

The current flow around the bridge would be too deep and fast for people not in boats to have entered. For any of you who haven't been in the water there - it's like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDP79l0OepE

At 6pm the Coast Guard helicopter at Dublin Airport would have had less than 7-10 mins response time to be overhead on-scene with winch - although there is only so many people you could winch in a mass incident.

In the area, from the water side you'd have Howth RNLI all weather would have been next, followed by our boat and the civil defense water unit which are not on initial response. Followed by i'd imagine maybe Skerries and Dun Laoighre RNLI too.

-Robin
http://www.howthcoastguard.com

Robin points out that the tide was the lowest-tide of the summer. Low tide was at approximately 8pm and that the collapse occurred about 6pm, So mid-tide was at approximately 5pm. Mid-tide is generally perceived to have the fastest flow/movement of water, with several mitigating factors, an important one is that this is an estuary so the parameters change here [time of slack water]. Did the collapse occur at the “peak flow”? [It is people like Robin, armed with local knowledge, that know these local anomalies.]

Robin also states that the highest tide [spring tide] of the year was at 2am the following morning. Looking at the video link Robin has posted, and considering the above, the volume/flow of water passing this viaduct would be huge and no doubt dangerous.

Carrying out dynamic risk assessments, scene safety, etc. would it be possible for an S.R.T. swimmer to perform any rescue in this flow??

If the situation had occurred where a train and carriages did de-rail, it would be incidental “who” was there first or last. This type of incident would be a multi-agency task. I would hope that the agencies and the individuals representing the respective agencies would work together, in a professional manner, with a common goal of doing their very best for casualties/patients.

Robin, how deep is the water there [say, mid-tide] would the Howth A.L.B. operate there? If there is a chance I’m sure the D***y Bros. and crew would sneak her in.;)

reno911 · 27-08-2009 09:03AM

I would have taugh that something like this would be an all hands on deck situation, im assuming that who ever raised the alarm called 999/112 and probably got DFB control. assuming a train did go into the drink, i would assume dfb would send out swords/kilbarrick trucks first and a few amob's and would put the HSE ambo's on standby as well as vol's (vol's to do patient transfer of walking wounded), I would hope they would notify the Coast Guard chopper if not for rescue purpose then for light for working crews (as it was nearing night) and to search for people who possably left the train and got taken away by the current. Again i would assume when the trucks arrived they would call for more resources, such as more trucks, dfb small inflatable (the DFB rib would take too long to arrive on scene), ambos, possably a command unit, coast guard, rnli and civil defence water rescue unit, due to the fast running water it would not be possible to get SRT's out to the train without boats and if there was damage to the weir the water would be even faster. coast guard and rnli would be there in minutes and civil denence would be there within the hour(adiquite time for a vol service i would think). remember there are 2 sides to the train track. 2 small boats would need to be put in broadmeadow as ribs would not be easy to launch (civil defence and RNLI i would assume). while all this is going on i would assume again that DFB would have called (after the intital trucks called for more resources) the Guards for road closures etc..., fingal engineers, fingal water safety officer and Irish rail engineers to do risk assesment and to give advice to all crews on the ground and also doctors&nurses that will be required on scene (again i know there are AP's in dfb but there not doctors, granted they will be setup in a triage area but definitly a mush have as AP's/emt will not be doing triage) and all hospitals arround dublin and probably drogheda would be notified. just a taught of what i think might have happend for what it's worth.

maglite · 27-08-2009 12:05PM

As i think about it, the idea thatsomeone one have to verify. If this happened DFD control would light up like a christmas tree with so many call about the incident. It would be verified by the call volume about the incident.

reno911 · 27-08-2009 12:17PM

thats true, but the public have a way of blowing things out of proportion in a panic stiuation, an initial response of 2 pumps an ambo and possably an ET or DO car would be normal and the officer on scene can assess the situation and call on additional resources

BizPost · 27-08-2009 12:57PM

But if you have an incident at sea/ estuary you call the lifeboat straight away. I don't get understand waiting to get to an incident to call in other emergency services if you're getting lots and lots of calls in. That could add at least another 10 minutes having to wait.

The nearest lifeboat is 10 mins away, how far is the nearest fire brigade boat or nearest fire engine with dry suits?

reno911 · 27-08-2009 01:24PM

you dont just send everything out to an incident, you send what you need, and in order to know what you need you need to send the minimum amout first and build resources as you require them, remember if there is another incident in dublin at the same time you cant have all your resources held up. I agree if there is something on the water the CG and RNLI should be called first. but what are they going to do when they get to a train in the water, they are not trained in extracation/stabilization/advanced medical training nor have the equipment on board a boat. this all falls under the remit of DFB/HSE. the CG/RNLI/CD would be there to assist in what ever way they can. like i said before taking personell and equipment out to the area as the water flow is too fast to get out by swimming and if there was any people in the water to get them, but it was a "potential" train derailment which means everybody will be in the train not outside unless they climbed out in which case most people will sit on the outside of the carrage and wait to be rescued. in fact if a carrage was under water it would not be the DFB/HSE/CG/RNLI/CD that would be needed but a team of trained divers such as the garda and a crane to get the carrage out of the water. Also remember DFB and as far as i can remember Civil Defense have floating platforms which can be roped up and pulled out to the accident site with personell and equipment to get started. would it not be better for a fully equipped truck to arrive on scene and ask for more additional resources while starting to extracate people that an boat with no equipment on board to tackle a train derailment

cruizer101 · 27-08-2009 01:41PM

Don't forget if the train ended up on the inside of estuary there is no access from the sea. AFAIK there is just the one Slipway in on the Malahide side.

Also the water isn't that deep around here, while I haven't got numbers I very much doubt the train could be fully submerged.

reno911 · 27-08-2009 02:00PM

boats would be needed if it went in on the broadmeadow side it can get fairly deep a carrage would be fully submerged, there is a slip at the sailing club but inflatables would be better as it's very shallow for the first 20 feet or so and they can be launched from the roadside. to get a rib in would be time consuming and not that easy, again if somebody walked out along the bridge to the affected area a floating platform could pulled out using the correct roping system.

dfbemt · 27-08-2009 11:15PM

I would be embarassed if some readers thought that ivabiggon is DFB. I doubt very much that he is as he would know that neither Kilbarrack nor Swords has SRT capability. Indeed it is a bone of contention in both stations at the moment and they are using this incident now to fight their corner to be SRT equipped.

Also, the poster who suggested that the response woul be 2 pumps and a DO. Not a chance. Any sub worth his salt in the control room would be making up as soon as he saw the volume of calls. He would not be waiting for the in attendance message and make up from the 1st arriving appliance.

This incident would take hours to deal with in the initial rescue stages. the build up of resources would be huge with staging and triage areas required. I would expect that the water rescues would be handled initially by local craft already in the water with a long term CG / RNLI deployment.

Train extracation would be DFB lead and I am certain that the Incident Commander would restrict access to that site for other than essential responders due to the water and further collapse risks. DFB protocol requires personal flotation devices (lifejackets) when working within 3m of water. I do not think that HSE have this but stand corrected if they do.

But I say again. This would be a protracted incident that would require an integrated and co-ordinated response over a long time. It will involve all the the 3 Principal Response Agencies (Fire, Amb, Gda) and plenty of volunteers (CG, RNLI, St Johns, Civ Def, OMAC, etc) and possibly Dublin Bus, army, etc. Plenty of opportunity for those that want the spotlight to grab it. I am certain that ivabiggon would not be there.

Paulzx · 28-08-2009 07:03AM

dfbemt wrote: »

I would be embarassed if some readers thought that ivabiggon is DFB. I doubt bery much that he is as he would know that neither Kilbarrack nor Swords has SRT capability. Indeed it is a bone of contention in both stations at the moment and they are using this incident now to fight their corner to be SRT equipped.

Also, the poster who suggested that the response woul be 2 pumps and a DO. Not a chance. Any sub worth his salt in the control room would be making up as soon as he say the volume of calls. He would not be waiting for the in attendance message and make up from the 1st arriving appliance.

This incident would take hours to deal with in the initial rescue stages. the build up of resources would be huge with staging and triage areas required. I would expect that the water rescues would be handled initially by local craft already in the water with a long term CG / RNLI deployment.

Train extracation would be DFB lead and I am certain that the Incident Commander would restrict access to that site for other than essential responders due to the water and further collapse risks. DFB protocol requires personal flotation devices (lifejackets) when working within 3m of water. I do not think that HSE have this but stand corrected if they do.

But I say again. This would be a protracted incident that would require an integrated and co-ordinated response over a long time. It will involve all the the 3 Principal Response Agencies (Fire, Amb, Gda) and plenty of volunteers (CG, RNLI, St Johns, Civ Def, OMAC, etc) and possibly Dublin Bus, army, etc. Plenty of opportunity for those that want the spotlight to grab it. I am certain that ivabiggon would not be there.

I'm with you on this dfbemt. This forum has generally been devoid of the my dick is bigger than your dick crap that goes on elsewhere. It has started to creep in recently and will destroy the place if let loose.

I also have my doubts about the individual concerned with some of the more rubbish posts. It is quite obvious to me that if a train had gone into the water it would immediately be a multi agency response. Multiple calls would come into the dfb control who would with the info from the calls have to immediately contact the coastguard at the same time as despatching their own resources. Response times for the lifeboat crews are pretty quick and it does not take the helicopter 30 mins to warm up.

Scene safety would be important and it is quite obvious that the fast flowing currents at the base of that bridge are a major hazard. Unless properly equipped no one from any agency including fire would be allowed access that water. Surgical teams as required would obviously be used were prolonged extrication of seriously injured casualties was necassary. However, access to the scene would definetly be restricted due to the hazards involved.

Hopefully we can get back to constructive discussions without more rubbish been bandied about

Smokey Bear · 28-08-2009 11:41AM

All DFB appilances will be carring SRT equipment 61 and 51 got them in the last 2 months more to follow,training now thats on my list for Santa never mind PMDs!!!.All ambulances are to have lifejackets and throw bags soon.
Agree with dfbemt and PaulZx in regard to this poster

Shield · 28-08-2009 11:47AM

Lads in fairness, there had been no more from the poster in question since my post, so it's best not refer to the matter again, as we now deem is has been dealt with.

Thanks.

BizPost · 28-08-2009 12:13PM

Smokey Bear wrote: »

All DFB appilances will be carring SRT equipment 61 and 51 got them in the last 2 months more to follow,training now thats on my list for Santa never mind PMDs!!!.All ambulances are to have lifejackets and throw bags soon.
Agree with dfbemt and PaulZx in regard to this poster

What does the SRT equipment consist of?

Paulzx · 28-08-2009 01:49PM

BizPost wrote: »

What does the SRT equipment consist of?

An SRT will wear:

Drysuit
Woolly Bear
Helmet with mounted torch
Flotation Device with cows tail quick release.

Other equipment used:

Floating lines
Static lines
Technical equipment e,g pulleys, carabiners, locking devices, slings etc
Inflatable platforms
Inflatable hose
Throw bags

BizPost · 28-08-2009 02:14PM

Great so will all fire engines be carrying all that gear?

Paulzx · 28-08-2009 02:45PM

Not all appliances. Any station with designated srts will carry on an appliance:

2 Full drysuit, helmet, flotation set
Floating and Static lines
Technical gear

Floating platforms are only on the two E.T's.
Hose inflation kits are possibly only on E.T's but i stand to be corrected on that

ivabiggon · 28-08-2009 03:47PM

I'm not gone away, just feel a little ganged up on cos i spoke my mind.
hose inflation kits are in no.7 on 72 also and alot of the southside station are srt equipped, D122 also have them (dunlaoire) not sure about no 1 station but i'll check that when i go into work next week,and i very much am DFB!

Hooch · 28-08-2009 03:58PM

ivabiggon wrote: »

I'm not gone away, just feel a little ganged up on cos i spoke my mind.
hose inflation kits are in no.7 on 72 also and alot of the southside station are srt equipped, D122 also have them (dunlaoire) not sure about no 1 station but i'll check that when i go into work next week,and i very much am DFB!

There is speaking your mind and being arogant ivabiggon. Your coming across as just that, im sure you didnt mean it but thats the way it reads......on every post.

Your input, as with everyones, is great......but only comment on what you know as fact (I.E. heli start up time):). If your not sure say it.

Purple Gorilla · 28-08-2009 04:10PM

Sorry I skipped most of the thread..Just read half the first page and decided to chip in

Sorry if it's already been said, but I'd say if there's any location for an accident to happen on water, that would be the best out of a bad bunch :P
The coast guard and I think the army (not sure) do water safety exercises in that estuary. They were doing it about a month or 2 months ago. I remember watching them. I'd say we'd be prepared

ivabiggon · 28-08-2009 05:16PM

well when i was doing the winching training with the S61 crew we were all told that as a call comes in the crew have to:
take the call

check weather,

workout a heading

calculate the correct amount of fuel for the flight versus the load they are going to pick up,

fuel up,

do start up,

and then travel to the scene,

now grant it the estuary is only a skip for the heli in the airport thats provided that particular heli isn't tasked to another job somewhere else.
and this is all done if the crew are on the base
if they were all on call they have 45 mins to assemble before they do the above!

The rest of my comments are fact base on the major emergency plans and based on the the unfortunate fact that the law states the most senior fire office on scene is in charge therefore he/she would be very reluctant to commit people who wouldn't be trained to a highly dangerous situation.
That is why i've put this to you all, inter agency incident don't happen to often and as a result neither agency mangers know the others capabilities, all the organisations mentioned in this particular topic are very good at what do individually, i can't argue that.

But if it came to a scenario where a rescue worker got killed and their was an enquiry the person responsible would be the most senior fire officer on scene, not the CG officer
not the ambulance officers
not the most senior garda on scene,
not the officers in the various vol organisations,

so when i came across as been arrogant and blowing the DFB trumpet in stating that nobody would get near the scene center i was basing my facts on the above.

I know their are senior officers that contribute to this forum and i'd wish that some of them would correct me on this but i know under the non fire emergency section of the fire service act that these senior officer are in charge and as this was a land borne incident and not a sea incident this would apply

now if you were to ask me should they be in charge... well thats a different story, cos alot of the senior management on the fifth floor in my job are bean counters and engineers and one would not put them in charge of a lighted match, but you can be 100% sure they now if something goes wrong the book will stop at them and their actions on the night will be scrutinized.
At the risk of been arrogant again! and apologies in advance, but when the DFB arrive on scene and because they have such a versatile amount of training and skills in different areas it would be hard for me to see a senior officer commit a rescue worker who they don't know their capabilities or has one specialized skill into a train wreck partially submerged without asking themselves some questions prior.
Maybe there should be a change in the law, i don't know.

Bang Bang · 28-08-2009 05:25PM

dfbemt wrote: »

DFB protocol requires personal flotation devices (lifejackets) when working within 3m of water. I do not think that HSE have this but stand corrected if they do.

Very good post there dfbemt.
Just regarding protocols of working within 3m of water. The HSE NAS now have this protocol also and all, (certainly in the Eastern Region) vehicles are now equipped with personal flotation devices including rope and all staff have been given the necessary training.

I might add too that the NAS Incident Response Team may also be alerted as they are trained in various levels of rescue including marine incidents which the train incident may border on.

ivabiggon · 28-08-2009 07:20PM

ye see bang bang theres something not many people new! so do you think a ass. chief would know that?

Hooch · 28-08-2009 07:20PM

ivabiggon wrote: »

ye see bang bang theres something not many people new! so do you think a ass. chief would know that?

Eh??

Railway Bridge

Comments