Railway Bridge

BizPost

That Train Driver saved lives in stopping the next train going over.

If he hadn't been so alert would Dublin be ready for such an emergency? What kind of response would have happened if a train with 200 pax ended up in water? Do organisations train for such emergencies? Would help from other counties be needed? What resources would you need? How quickly would you get the Garda Water unit there?

RobD_

well not the whole thing would go into the water, not even half of the train would make it in,

having saying that now, there is no real way to escape from that kind of situation, cant really smash the windows because they would go every where with the plus fact of being underwater.

i dont think the doors would work because their electric and under water woudlnt work, and their extremely hard to open at any time !

but who says that it might not be able to make it over, after all it was the stone that collapsed and not the metal track ?

DCTF

RobD_ wrote: »

but who says that it might not be able to make it over, after all it was the stone that collapsed and not the metal track ?

not quite true, the driver saw water coming up between the tracks and thought it unusual then realised that the far track foundation was gone and his was giving way as he was crossing it. correct the track didn't break off but it doesn't look like it would hold a train crossing it either.

RobD_

DCTF wrote: »

not quite true, the driver saw water coming up between the tracks and thought it unusual then realised that the far track foundation was gone and his was giving way as he was crossing it. correct the track didn't break off but it doesn't look like it would hold a train crossing it either.

i'd agree with you, i just thought it would be a nice experiment.

i didnt know that water came up between the tracks ? how did it get that high ?

Ian Beale

BizPost wrote: »

Do organisations train for such emergencies? Would help from other counties be needed? What resources would you need?

A few years back they had a simulated train crash up in Maynooth, They had all of the emergency personnel up there, Gardaí, Fire-fighters, Paramedics and Civil Defence. Granted they didn't have the train underwater but they put a lot of work in to it, tipped a few carriages on to their sides and had other volunteers act as injured people with various broken bones etc.

boomer_ie

BizPost wrote: »

That Train Driver saved lives in stopping the next train going over.

If he hadn't been so alert would Dublin be ready for such an emergency? What kind of response would have happened if a train with 200 pax ended up in water? Do organisations train for such emergencies? Would help from other counties be needed? What resources would you need? How quickly would you get the Garda Water unit there?

Last year or the year before there was three major incidents in the one day in three separate parts of the country, one involved 100 children being thrown from their boats in Dun Laoghaire (I believe 100 ambulances were sent to this according to some newspapers although this total may include AP cars, Ambulance Officer Jeeps etc.) On the same day there was also a bus crash and a plane crash.

I never heard of any major issues as a result of the activations of the emergency plans. The only real issue that could cause a problem is poor access to an incident location through small country roads etc etc.

meathstevie

In this case I think the big problem would have been access if a train would have went into the sea. Manpower wouldn't have been the prime issue in my opinion. If a major disaster happened Dublin would be about the best resourced area I think : close proximity of major hospitals ( Malahide to Beaumount and Mater is less than 20 min ), Dublin Fire Brigade is probably the biggest and one of the best equipped fire services on the island, plenty of Gardai in the region to take control of access routes, Baldonnel and Dublin airport with the SAR helicopter and Air Corps minits away to provide airlifts etc etc.

Cork_Rebel

Depends what equipment you need, putting people in the water quickly with boats and drysuits would it not be the Coast Guard?

Along with the helicopters they have.

ivabiggon

no DFB would be there first with SRT's from swords, kilbarrack, hq phisboro, coast gaurd would supply boats along with dfb and rnli but that would only apply to people in the water coast gaurd and other services woud not be allowed near the incident, all extraction and initial triage would be done by dfb on scene and shipped off to the ambulance loading point and transported by dfb and hse ambo or volunteers from there.

BizPost

"other services woud not be allowed near the incident"

Assume if its in the water there would be plenty of "other" services at the incident like Garda Water Unit. Would have thought RNLI would be in the water extracting people quicker than the nearest DFB boat. How many boats do DFB have, where are they based?

Also would there there not be a trauma team including Doctors from the HSE on scene leading the medical side?

RobD_

RobD_ wrote: »

having saying that now, there is no real way to escape from that kind of situation, cant really smash the windows because they would go every where with the plus fact of being underwater.

There is an emergency door override which usually consists of a lever near the door covered with glass but I'd say it would be hard to use in an underwater scenario.

ivabiggon

not many boat 2 to be exact, you see the way these thing work is if there is an incident involving a train the call goes through the 9's system as per all emergency calls, that would be dealt with by the dfb, the initial response would be the fire brigade form swords kilbarrack and northstrand and hq,and the gardai, on arrival the OIC would make an assessment on the situation and more than likely deem it to be a major emergency unless it was a freight train with only a small number of people involve, ie the driver and one other.
anyway that OIC would call in resources as per the need. now grant it if there was alot of people in the water the life boat service or coast guard might be there quickly to rescue them but these crews are all on pager systems and the fire brigade are on an emergency turn out system so they are ready to go at all time and time being the important thing the rescues would be effected immediately and since they would be the one in charge and the ones to initially take the call they would be there the fastest, but in that situation people in the water would not be the biggest problem as the estuary is quit shallow and close to the road, also the natural behavior of people would be to make their way away from the water back up to dry land unless they were thrown into the water,so entrapment would be the biggest problem and that would be the sole responsibility of the DFB

ivabiggon

BizPost wrote: »

"other services woud not be allowed near the incident"

Assume if its in the water there would be plenty of "other" services at the incident like Garda Water Unit. Would have thought RNLI would be in the water extracting people quicker than the nearest DFB boat. How many boats do DFB have, where are they based?

Also would there there not be a trauma team including Doctors from the HSE on scene leading the medical side?

and absolutely no way would you put untrained person ell like doctors into an entrapment situation that they can do nothing or know nothing about,they along with the ambulance crews would be kept back to an appointed area waiting for the injure to be brought to them and then they would access them and transport

boomer_ie

ivabiggon wrote: »

and absolutely no way would you put untrained person ell like doctors into an entrapment situation that they can do nothing or know nothing about,they along with the ambulance crews would be kept back to an appointed area waiting for the injure to be brought to them and then they would access them and transport

There is a formal system for pre-hospital doctors in the UK that would see doctors turn up on site to assist in scenarios such as these. I dont think there is a formal system as yet but there would be doctors / consultants or whatever drafted in from the nearest available location and utilised on site at a casualty clearing centre (rather than directly on scene). At least thats my understanding of things.

The UK system is BASICS (http://www.basics.org.uk)

drill

BizPost wrote: »

Also would there there not be a trauma team including Doctors from the HSE on scene leading the medical side?

Medical team would come from a hosp furtherest from the accident site ie malahide - Tallaght, Vincents etc or further depending on the incidents impact on the countys hospitals.

Hooch

ivabiggon wrote: »

and absolutely no way would you put untrained person ell like doctors into an entrapment situation that they can do nothing or know nothing about,they along with the ambulance crews would be kept back to an appointed area waiting for the injure to be brought to them and then they would access them and transport

boomer_ie wrote: »

There is a formal system for pre-hospital doctors in the UK that would see doctors turn up on site to assist in scenarios such as these. I dont think there is a formal system as yet but there would be doctors / consultants or whatever drafted in from the nearest available location and utilised on site at a casualty clearing centre (rather than directly on scene). At least thats my understanding of things.

The UK system is BASICS (http://www.basics.org.uk)

There are two emergency Doctors in Cork that I know of. Both have blues and sirens in their private car/jeep provided by the HSE. They also have full content including lifepak in their booths.

ivabiggon dont know where your getting they would not be put in there. if they have to provide care then they will go in there.

In regard to the 999, I believe it would go to Garda command and control first as with most incidents where fire/ambo are not directly requested. Also if the train went into the water, make no mistake Dublin Coast Guard MRCC would be notified and all RNLI and IrCG resources would be depolyed including RNLI lifeboat, IrCG rescue/patrol boats, IrCG ground crews and Rescue 116 (EI-MES)

BizPost

Interesting posts, I didn't realise Dublin FB are in control of the operation. Do all the stations have SRTs with Dry Suits and Water Rescue gear?

Wouldn't make sense to wait for the first fire crew to arrive before calling Coast Guard lifeboats.

ivabiggon

i don't believe it would go tru garda control first. when an accident occurs the first thing people do is call the ambulance at that stage the control room operator would inform the sub officer in charge of the incident and he or she would contact the garda control room immediately, at that stage the dfb ambulances
and fire trucks would be well on their way, and i know from experience the fire brigade will not alert the coast guard or life boat until they confirm the incident, making sure it was not a boggie.
it is all very well to say that a doc down in cork has loads of gadgets to attend incidents but in all my time I've never seen doctor train or even travel on the ambulances or truck of the Dublin emergency service so they are not equip to deal with on site emergency's. so that would make them a potential liability,they may very well deal with "after extraction" in a triage area but not in the main incident.

cruizer101

Just to say apprently the driver saw water coming up through the track, I was sceptical about this however the highest tide of the year occured on saturday so it would have bee very high on friday also this couple with the recent heavy rain flowing downsteam lead to a very high water level on the inside of the estuary, so it might well be possible the water was coming through.

This high level of water may have also contributed to the bridge failing, although I would guess it was on its way out and it was only a matter of time.

With regards to it being underwater the depth of water there is not much maybe a metre or two tops with tide in, it would depend which side the train went. So you wouldn't be looking at a completey submerged situation.

Also the doors have an override beside them which allows for them to be manually opened.

boomer_ie

With regards the water coming up through the rail i presumed he was talking abotu the splashing from the water splashing up caused by the falling debris from the bridge.

civdef

Loads of info on the major emergency framework here:

http://www.mem.ie/

There is a protocol for marine incidents:
http://www.mem.ie/memdocuments/a%20protocol%20for%20multi-agency%20response%20to%20rail%20related%20emergencies.pdf

For the purpose of co-ordinating response for rail emergencies normally the local
authority is the lead agency. The Fire Service, as PES of the local authority, will
act for the local authority as Lead agency in the early stages of response. This may
become a broader Local Authority function at a later stage of the major emergency

The issue of access to the site depends on how the cordons are set up, quoting from the main framework Appendix F11:

The Inner Cordon is used to define an area where the emergency services work to rescue casualties and survivors and deal with the substance of the emergency. This is also the area where evidence will need to be protected. Persons working inside this area should have appropriate personal protective equipment (PPE).

A Danger Area may be declared (see also Section 5.5.4) where there is a definite risk torescue personnel, over and above that which would normally pertain at emergency operations. This risk could arise because of dangers posed by the release of hazardous materials, buildings in danger of further collapse, the threat of explosion or the presence of an armed individual....
Where it is necessary that services continue to operate in a Danger Area, they should apply their normal incident and safety management arrangements, and relevant officers should continue to exercise command/control over their own personnel working in the
Danger Area.

Experience from rail incidents in other countries shows that in prolonged entrapments, the use of medical / surgical teams is essential. The statement by ivabiggon that

and absolutely no way would you put untrained person ell like doctors into an entrapment situation that they can do nothing or know nothing about,they along with the ambulance crews would be kept back to an appointed area waiting for the injure to be brought to them and then they would access them and transport

needs to be taken with a dose of salt. Unless there is some particular danger presented itself such as a hazardous materials release, it would be impossible to justify closing the site to anyone but the fire service.

maglite

ivabiggon what your say makes DFB loo like a baby with a rattle. Now admittedly I have never worked with them. But I would assume it would be borderline negligent to not call in the appropriate resources.

If a Doc was available I would assume the paramedics would love to have him available to provide extra pt care if applicable. I cant see what immediate danger he would be in because I will assume DFB will have stabilized the train before allowing extrication to continue, there would be no fire risk, risk of explosion etc. Short of possibly wet legs I see no danger. If I'm wrong please tell me.

I have worked with those docs in the south and indeed with 2 basics doctors and there is no denying they are able to add to pt care.

Bang Bang

ivabiggon wrote: »

i know from experience the fire brigade will not alert the coast guard or life boat until they confirm the incident, making sure it was not a boggie.

Irresponsible in my opinion.
One quote I've often heard from Fire officers on scene and it's one I've used myself as I agree fully with is,
"I'd rather be looking at it than looking for it".

Why turn out trucks and officers to check if it's a hoax call, even though it's known that the call involves a sea incident? Losing valuable minutes if you discover the Coast Guard is required.

I've been turned out to many rock/cliff/shore incidents usually involving walkers and and have always requested,although control often have it done already, and that is to alert the Coast Guard and Fire Service. It's common sense prevailing as we are dealing with peoples lives here.

As for doctors and paramedics/ambulance crews not being allowed near the scene, where did you get that one from?
I've been to quite a few incidents where DFB have requested extra resourses, additional ambulances. doctors etc and have yet to be blocked from entering any scene. I'm a Paramedic fully trained in MIMMS and wear my full PPE, as do doctors/nurse attending these incidents, so why would they not be allowed near the scene to stabilise before and assist in extrication?

I remember a good few years ago there was a traffic accident involving a coach and a truck on the N4 Chapelizod by-pass. As well as the usual emerengency services sent to the scene St. James' hospital dispatched a team of doctors/nursed to assist casualties at the scene. So saying that they would not be allowed on scene is rubbish. It can actually help in deciding what priority casualties are sent to hospital.

ivabiggon

the point i'm trying to make here is when a number of people are trapped and there is crews working around them there is only so much room to maneuver with cutting equipment, we are talking 3 -4 fire fighters,
now introduce a doc and maybe a nurse and a paramedic into the mix and thing get crowded very quickly,
so in the situation were DFB would be dealing with this train crash there would be no need for the paramedics, nurse and the doc, because all the crew are paramedic and some of them are AP's so unless there is an need to preform surgery they're would be no need for the doc or nurse.
in the major emergency plan it is laid out quite clearly the 3 circles around the incident and who should be working in each,
and there is no point introducing more people into a dangerous situation than necessary, that's were they become a liability. doctor and nurse aren't trained to work in these situation. and how would you give a crash coarse on the side of a bridge to a doc in how to get into a dry suit to work up to their waist in water.
and just to answer the question re SRT's and stations, the majority of stations have SRT capabilities

ivabiggon

Bang Bang wrote: »

Irresponsible in my opinion.
As for doctors and paramedics/ambulance crews not being allowed near the scene, where did you get that one from?
I've been to quite a few incidents where DFB have requested extra resourses, additional ambulances. doctors etc and have yet to be blocked from entering any scene. I'm a Paramedic fully trained in MIMMS and wear my full PPE, as do doctors/nurse attending these incidents, so why would they not be allowed near the scene to stabilise before and assist in extrication?

it's not the job of the doc or the paramedic to extricate, it's the fire service!

civdef

so unless there is an need to preform surgery they're would be no need for the doc or nurse.

In situations like a train crash, this is not something to rule out.

Bang Bang

ivabiggon wrote: »

it's not the job of the doc or the paramedic to extricate, it's the fire service!

Assist being an operative word here as we're all part of the one team so to speak.

The HSE are responsible for people as casualties. The HSE are responsible for making the decisions on what hospitals are placed on call and what casualty goes to which hospital etc. Clinical decisions will be made by doctors on scene. Ambulances to be used will be decided by NAS Ambulance Service Officers jointly with Fire officers (where Dublin is the scenario) under advice from the on scene clinical leader.
HSE NAS Command & Control will advise all Emergency Departments of any major incident and inform them as to what and how many casualties each department will be receiving, this includes any major incident in the Dublin area.

robinb

Wasn't going to reply - but I just want to put some facts straight after having walked out and stood on the collapsed section of bridge on Friday night myself in respect of water safety for the Coast Guard.

First, it was the highest tide of the year at 2am the following morning, but it was also the lowest-tide of the summer just after the point of collapse http://www.dusac.org/sites/default/files/images/Dublin_tide_range_2009.png

Low tide was around 8pm that night. The collapse occurred after 6pm. There is no way water was coming up between the tracks. I'm sure what he meant was between the sleepers he could see water (they remained on the tracks with the tracks still crossing). There would have been no splashing either, it's just too high.

I'm reasonably sure, if a call had of come in from Irish Rail (presumably the first to know or a bystander) to say "a train has derailed on the bridge into water" every button would have been hit. Taking into account you need to walk out on the bridge from parking a vehicle as we did that night, if the buttons were hit at the same time, Howth RNLI Inshore (D-Class) would have been close to first on-scene in the water based on their fast response time (they all work/live near the boat-house).

The current flow around the bridge would be too deep and fast for people not in boats to have entered. For any of you who haven't been in the water there - it's like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDP79l0OepE

At 6pm the Coast Guard helicopter at Dublin Airport would have had less than 7-10 mins response time to be overhead on-scene with winch - although there is only so many people you could winch in a mass incident.

In the area, from the water side you'd have Howth RNLI all weather would have been next, followed by our boat and the civil defense water unit which are not on initial response. Followed by i'd imagine maybe Skerries and Dun Laoighre RNLI too.

-Robin
http://www.howthcoastguard.com

ivabiggon

there is absolutely no way that any of those voluntary services would have been there before the fire brigade in swords or kilbarrack would have been and that would include the helicopter.
the heli from the airport has a half hour start up warm up time before been air bourne tho the fight is only 5-7 mins away, the fire brigade would have been long before, oh and any incident on land is the fire service responsibiliy not the coast gaurd

robinb

Read my post... "the first there in the water".

Quoting those times makes me think you've never called the helicopter. Am I having a conversation with someone who is just speculating who's not got facts?

What is your name and unit?

-Robin
http://www.howthcoastguard.com