Inset Stove

Are you seriously considering fitting inset stoves in the manner you have recommended in these posts. As Chairman of the Northern Ireland Association of Chimney Sweeps, and a technical advisor to N.I Building control, I read your posts in total disbelief.

Why would you not just advise fitting the stove in compliance with building guidelines and reduce the diameter of the flue to suit the applaince you are fitting? By doing so, you can bring the adapter on a steel sleeve directly onto the collar of the stove. Therfore all the soot and deposits will come down onto the throat plate of the stove rather than accumulate around the top of the stove out of reach, which is nothing more than a FIRE HAZARD.

To add to the benefit of correctly fitting the stove this way, you can also be assured of the correct performance of the appliance. The stoves are tested to determine the KW output based on the correct diameter of flue, so hoping it will burn as well using a larger diameter of clay liner is ludicrous. Why spend money on a stove and not fit it correctly.

In fairness all stoves should have a steel lining system installed to the top of the flue, and insulated. The reason is that flue gas temperature are a lot lower from a closed appliance than that of an open fire, therfore a little extra work needs to be done to maintain the low flue temperatures so that condensates and large volumes of combustibles don't build up. It is more critical with insets as the end user is very rarely, if ever going to pull baffles out and reach up into the chamber you are creating to remove such deposits. What happens next is the guys with hose pipes come out to deal with yet another dangerous installation.

In the republic of Ireland you have to comply with building control guidelines which are currently document J. In the North we work to technical booklet L, and in both it clearly states you should reduce the diameter of the flue to suit the appliance, as oversize flues can be unsafe...I would go further and say that the advice from some of the stockists is just as dangerous.

Ring and speak to the manufacturers technical support and ask them if they would recommend fitting a steel sleeve and see what they say. Stockists are often reluctant to tell you what you need to do in case they loose the sale. If they have sold a stove, the installation is out of their hands. Simple...tell you what you want to hear.

As always in these forums, a little knowledge is often dangerous, and this is a classic.

PM me if you need any help.

I have fitted all the models you have all listed in this forum, and have had problems at times with the flue systems coming down onto the flat top. The Clearview inset has the benefit of a sloped ceiling to the back of the fireplace, ensuring the liner can make a nice neat fitting to the the stove without impeding the concrete head or lintle.

On another note, Clearview are the only company I know that show that the flue needs lined in every installation. You get an excellent UK manufactured stove for your money, and the advice for fitting it correctly. A lot of stockists can't get an account with Clearview because they don't have the background in the solid fuel industry. Clearview don't want box movers selling their products in case the fantastic reputation is jepordised.

It appears that there are other stockists advertising they are able to get certain brands of stove, so we are doing the same.

Hope this helps to clear up some other issues.

To be concise as possible

Chapter 1 subsection 38 of Document J which the Irish government have adopted, and Section 1 subsection 31 for technical booklet L in N. Ireland states that flues should be reduced in size to suit the intended appliances as oversized flues can be unsafe.

Many manufacturers of stoves will claim high efficiency rates for their appliances, but these can only be expected if the flue is of the same diameter as the appliance outlet, which is used during testing. Oversized flues will clearly cause an over burn issue as it attempts to pull significantly larger volumes of combustion air through the appliance. A new applaince is fine for a while, but give it a few months until rope seals become compressed and that oversized flue can cause disasters with the cheaper quality "cast iron" stoves. Inverted commas were used because very few are pure cast iron any more, but pig iron which is scrap metal...the product the far east have been buying up from us, is smelted...weakening the metal, and then after being made into something that looks like a stove with matt black spray is shipped half way around the globe again to be heated in our homes until the back side burns out of them.

Ask yourself why the Victorian fireplaces have original parts still in tact and yet the new grate for the open fire you bought a few months ago is bent and falling apart already, and suddenly your wee stove is not such a good buy is it?

Flue adapters sold in retail shops. Lets move on to them then will we. Well Document J and Technical booklet L state that spigot and socket joints should be orientated with the sockets pointing upwards to contain moistures in the flue. Vitreous enamel pipe and clay liners all have such joints, but how many times do you see them upside down...Yeah I know, and have some wonderful pictures of the aftermath. These adapters being sold..when you stick them up inside a clay liner, you are creating an upside down joint. Once more our web site has some pretty good pictures, but I'm not mentioning the web address. You might have to be creative and go looking for it...I'm not allowed to advertise the site hear you know.

You are quite right about the "grey areas" causing problems with building control guidelines...as you say they are a set of guidelines. Where is the grey area though. "reduce the diameter of the flue to suit the applaince as oversized flues can be unsafe" Of course a manufacturer is going to tell you it will be fine to throw a unit in....but ask them for that in writing and see what happens, with a signature to cover you in the event of a fatality. The lawyer who has read up the building control documentation will be asking you some very awkward questions in front of the judge, and a verbal instruction from a techie on the phone will not protect you. Your post seems a little contradictory if you don't mind me saying so. If you flaunch cement all over the top of the stove, how do you propose removing it to sweep which seems to be what you are advising Dilbert. Surely having to remove the appliance to carry out a simple maintenance job like sweeping the chimney is a bit much for old mrs down the street. I know if I was being asked to sweep a chimney and someone asked me to remove the appliance as it was the only way to clean it, I would slap a condemned label on it once I had stopped laughing and charge the customer for wating my time. At no point should you have to remove an appliance to sweep the chimney...check your regs again. It may be worth asking John over in Stovax if he would recommend a steel lining system or the cement back fill. Give him the two alternatives and ask him which he would prefer.

Moving swiftly on

If you are having problems making the connection to the inset using a steel liner you either need to rethink your strategy or refuse to fit them. One regular poster has done just that, but in our industry you have to be creative at times. Some manufacturers, which I mention quite often have an inset with the provision of making the flex union at a slight angle to allow for lintles and concrete heads. Nice to work with I can assure you.

Your concrete throating block is causing a smoke chamber and everything within a flue should gradually taper in to encourage flue gasses to quickly vent the system, not cause swirling smoke movements. This is the very reason that flues should be as close to vertical as possible and you should avoid bends wherever possible.

Another point on using the existing clay liners. Do you carry out a CCTV inspection to make sure they are installed correctly, and not thrown together leaving gaps all over the place or upside down. More importantly can Dilbert do this before he DIY's his stove. See how long it takes for the gable wall or internal wall to be DESTROYED with condensate when the client uses the damp wood or damp coal etc. When they have huge black patches coming through the walls, it doesn't get pretty when they are in your showroom shouting and yelling at you threatening legal action when you are trying to close on another sale.

Were getting there now, bear with me.

One stove manufacturer is stating not to flue line with steel, but the distributer here says you should...well maybe it is just me, but perhaps the mainland Europeans know how to prepare, store and burn dry seasoned wood and don't have the issues we have with condensates. Wood burning is a way of life for many of my freinds in the chimney industry around the globe, it just seems to be the UK and Ireland that a lot of the stoves are being sold as the latest accessory to save money, and the retailers are perhpas not doing enough to educate the customer before selling the stove. It may also be the fact that most European countries have pumice lining systems with high Thermal qualities, where here we have clay that are woeful...and then of course it might be that regulations are different here, and the distributer knows what is required to get the best from the stove.

And finally, you'll be pleased to know. A Clearview stove is quite possibly the best stove I have seen, and I've seen a lot. They get their name for a reason. Overnight burning is very simple as they are one of the most controllable stoves around. We have used our Showroom models overnight on a few occasions and they have had nothing more than a film on the window the following morning, which burnt off within 3 minutes of refuelling, then remained clear for the rest of the day as they do. 4 dry logs, less than 20% moisture, and the Solution 500 stayed in from 5pm until 9.30am the following morning....Thanks for asking, as I am merely answering your question, not advertising.

Well I think that is enough to be getting on with. Any more questions, and I'll try to help.

Best regards

David

Peter you are quite right. I would say a lot of the insets are not designed for installation to standard fireplaces, especially the bigger output stuff. I would say that Stovax have a couple which work very well, being the Stockton 7 and the Riva 40. The only issue I have is what FMCC says which is that they are not lending themselves to easy installation if they are fitted with a steel sleeve...and I think you all now know my feelings on this...

I think I am right in saying morso steel stoves have one or two, as well as Dovre. You will find that very few if any are "cast" stoves, but the more forgiving and airtight steel units. Of course the Clearview inset is designed for working with a standard 16" opening without any problems, and lends itself to easier fitting many of the others, with it's sloping ceiling.

Can someone tell me what the insurance viewpoint is in the South in the event of a house fire, especially if the stove was a DIY project gone wrong? Just curious as I do a lot of assessment work for loss adjusters up here and I know they are becoming very tight on this very issue, which is why we are keen to get HETAS operational in the North to run alongside the NIACS.

Read www.csai.ie . I quote from the site since I was considering myself getting one installed until I realised we are dealing with a cowboy industry. Thankfully I read this.

A WORD OF CAUTION : Before buying a multi-fuel /wood burning stove or Inset stove please be advised that according to Building Regulations -1997-Technical Guidance Document J.Heat Producing Appliances.

• There must be a soot door in place or a way for sweeping of the appliance.
• The appliance should never be allowed to sit on the hearth of the fireplace unless it is at least 300 ml.(12 inches ) away from combustibles. (carpets/wooden flooring/etc..)
• A class 1 stainless steel flexible flue-liner should also be professionally fitted to the appliance.
• The horizontal run should not exceed 150mm (6 inches)
• Never use 90 degree bends.
• Finally, if you're considering slumbering your appliance overnight ( not recommended) we would advise using grade 904 stainless steel flexible liner especially if using smokeless fuel.
Fireplace insets are appliances that are partially or completely inserted into a fireplace firebox. While these units are classified as circulating heaters, the front portion of the inset is actually a radiant heater.
Fireplace inset stoves should never be just pushed into the firebox, these appliances require professional fitting, which includes relining of the chimney.

WARNING: A faulty installation can cause danger to the inhabitants and structure of the building. Your building insurance company may require you to inform them that you have installed a new heating appliance.

Check that your cover is still valid after installing the appliance. If you have a multi-fuel/wood burning stove or inset stove and are concerned that your appliance may not be fitted to Building Regulations. Please do not hesitate to contact me or Minister John Gormley email: minister@environ.ieThis e-mail address is being protected from spam bots, you need JavaScript enabled to view it

Any retailer or tradesman that advises you that you do not need to professionally fit a multi-fuel/wood burning appliance to Building Regulations-1997- Technical Guidance Document J- Heat Producing Appliances or the Manufacturers' installation manual has no idea of chimney physics or the sale of goods act (1980).

Small Claims Procedure
The Small Claims Procedure is a special mechanism for dealing with small claims with in the District Court structure. The procedure is designed to handle consumer complaints quickly, cheaply and informally without a solicitor. Claims in respect of personal injuries are excluded and the maximum claim currently is €2,000. You can get an application form and more information on this procedure from your Local District court or online at www.smallclaims.ie . It costs just €9 to bring a claim to the court, but is well worth it if you win.

We have seen and continue to see multi-fuel/wood burning stoves and insets being sold and fitted incorrectly by retailers and tradesmen who have no formal training or qualifications in the safe installation of these appliances, which not only leads to chimney fires, but can also lead to a potential ingress of carbon monoxide poison which can be fatal.

As a chimney fire investigator I have seen an increasing amount of chimney fires associated with multi-fuel/wood burning appliances. These fires accounted for 76% of all my chimney fire investigations for the month of December 2008.

I would like to thank this householder for allowing me the opportunity to inform the public as to what can happen when someone you think is qualified, isn't. The following case involves a double chimney fire in County Wicklow. This chimney had caught fire as the Irish fire service had responded not once but twice to put out the fire. Our investigation uncovered the following facts:

1. The multi-fuel appliances were not fitted to the manufacturers’ installation manual.
2. The creosote deposits in the chimney were not removed before installing the new stainless steel liners.
3. The plumber -with over 20 years experience had used the wrong grade liner.

The 304 grade liner which should only be used for oil/gas melted due to the intense heat of the solid fuel appliance, this then ignited the creosote deposits which moved up and over the unfinished midfeather wall which then transferred to the adjoining property .

This picture is an example of what can happen when a tradesman (?) without any formal training or qualifications in the safe installation of multi-fuel/wood burning appliances can do, not only to you and your family, but also your unsuspecting neighbors' as well.





The lady sleeping next door, awoke with her bedroom floor on fire, luckily she managed to get out. This had been the one of the most serious breaches of Building Regulations I had seen in my short time as a chimney fire investigator. It could have easily resulted in a death. I immediately brought this to the attention of the Minister for Environment, Heritage and Local Government, John Gormley. I had sent many emails in the past to this Minister regarding the increasing number of chimney fires, the role that multi-fuel/wood burning appliances are having on this issue and the real problem of retailers/tradesmen fitting these appliances without any formal training or qualifications. I had hoped that by emailing this photographic proof, the Minister might act. I sent copies of the report to the leaders of Fine Gael and the labour party respectfully. I would like to thank Eamon Gilmore and Deputy Liz McManus for their efforts.

hi

i'm buying a new house/new build in kildare and the house doesn't have a chimney. they guy selling the house says that the fireplace is flueless. does anyone know anything about these? are they safe?

I'd like to put in a gas stove (its plumbed in on mains bord gais), but I've been recommended a "balanced flue". how big a job would it be to put this in?

The fireplace is in the middle of the wall between my house and the semi next door, so the flue would need to run approx 10 feet. are there any complications? does the flue need to go out @ 45 degrees or can I run the flue up the "fake" chimney brest and @ 90 degrees along the ceiling out through the front of the house?

Any thoughts would be appriciated.

Paul

oconnorw wrote: »

Read www.csai.ie . I quote from the site since I was considering myself getting one installed until I realised we are dealing with a cowboy industry. Thankfully I read this.

I sincerely hope you are not including every retailer and installer with the above comment.

I for one am physically and mentally tired of consumers who come into our showroom get good advice and then start "heated discussions" about how a friend or family member had a stove fitted with long pipes off the back and they worked.

Worse they insist that twin wall flue is not needed when going through a wall or ceiling because they have seen a vitreous enamel pipe from the stove through the roof, or the usual being "we have been to other shops and they didn't say it was wrong".

Others have said that they come into buy a stove multi fuel or wood pellet and all I am doing is creating obstacles because other retailers told them the stove will work without flues (pellet) and they don't need to follow the regulations regarding pipe lengths and angles (solid fuel).

Thats just stoves considering we sell pellet boilers and solar its no wonder that I am tired of people who refuse to listen to common sense, the very same people are the ones who tell neighbours, friends and family about how bad the systems work conveniently forgetting that they were told and chose to ignore the advice because it would have cost more money.

The web sites, hardware store and builders merchants who stock stoves do so to sell them, they do not see themselves in the role of advisors regarding installation or the relevant standards, they also sell the flue liners based again on the cheapest product on their computer, they do not see it as their job to know the difference between the products.

CSAI

The particular example given points to an installer who hadn't a clue about the difference between an old chimney and a modern one, or the differences in flexible flue liners.

Part J clearly states the flue must not be smaller than outlet from the appliance, like fmcc I can not find reference to reducing the size of the flue to suit the appliance, however with certain products and chimneys it does make sense and may be noted in the manufacturers instructions.

fmcc is also correct about the TR4 it is designed to be taken out when cleaning the chimney, in fact I believe it is one of the products strong points, unlike the more expensive units it does exactly what it says nothing more, nothing less.

I also agree with sooty_soupy, American standards have very little in common with the Irish or UK regulations, if the CSAI wanted to impress me they would be promoting standards similar to the Germans where the title Chimney Sweep is that of a true professional, they do a lot more than sweep chimneys.

The reference to the Govt Ministers is nothing more or less than a sick joke, we have regulations, guidelines, manufacturers installation instructions and common sense to work from, if customers will not listen their is very little anyone can do.

We also have building control officers attached to our local authority / council offices if the Minister or our Government had any interest in the consumer they would have those departments actually working.

Rant over.

.

OK here is a link to Document J, which I have been led to believe Ireland has adopted.

http://www.documentj.co.uk/Sections.aspx?docid=1&docname=Document+J&headingid=61&sectionid=0&selected=s001-000&target=s001-000#s001-020

And here are the paragraphs I would draw to your attention, which will be found in the document.
1.33 Fluepipes with spigot and socket joints should be fitted with the socket facing upwards to contain moisture and other condensates in the flue. Joints should be made gas-tight. A satisfactory way of achieving this would be to use proprietary jointing accessories or, where appropriate, by packing joints with non-combustible rope and fire cement.



Now let me say that UNLESS you can be sure the liners are correctly installed, you can not assume anything.



YOU ARE THE LAST PERSON WORKING AT THE PROPERTY....YOU ARE THE FALL GUY IF THINGS GO WRONG...trust me on this..I have been an expert witness in court cases already.




Re-use of existing flues

1.36 Where it is proposed to bring a flue in an existing chimney back into use or to re-use a flue with a different type or rating of appliance, the flue and the chimney should be checked and, if necessary, altered to ensure that they satisfy the requirements for the proposed use. A way of checking before and/or after remedial work would be to test the flue using the procedures in Appendix E .
1.37 A way of refurbishing defective flues would be to line them using the materials and components described in Sections 2 , 3 and 4 dependent upon the type of combustion appliance proposed. Before relining flues, they should be swept to remove deposits.
1.38 A flue may also need to be lined to reduce the flue area to suit the intended appliance. Oversize flues can be unsafe.
1.39 If a chimney has been relined in the past using a metal lining system and the appliance is being replaced, the metal liner should also be replaced unless the metal liner can be proven to be recently installed and can be seen to be in good condition.


All pretty self explanatory I think


And lastly


Inspection and cleaning openings in flues

1.49 A flue should not have openings into more than one room or space except for the purposes of:
[FONT=&quot]1.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]inspection or cleaning; or
[FONT=&quot]2.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]fitting an explosion door, draught break, draught stabiliser or draught diverter.


Openings for inspection and cleaning should be formed using purpose factory-made components compatible with the flue system, having an access cover that has the same level of gas-tightness as the flue system and an equal level of thermal insulation. Openings for cleaning the flue should allow easy passage of the sweeping brush. Covers should also be noncombustible except where fitted to combustible fluepipe (such as plastic fluepipe). After the appliance has been installed, it should be possible to sweep the whole flue.


Now someone tell me where there is a problem please.


As for Peter....Well said my friend....I am so tired of dealing with clowns who think they know better, but obviously know buggar all. I personally think you should have to get a license to sell products that can burn down houses and kill people with lethal poisonous gas, but then who am I. I have only been picking up the pieces for 20 years.



About a year ago we decided to open a showroom because I thought "why should these idiots get the easy money of selling the box, and we get the hard part of putting the disasters right" ANYONE CAN SELL A BOX...but many of them may as well be selling marshmallows, as they probably know more about them than the stoves they are selling. A perfect example...a gift shop selling cards and wrapping paper about 10 miles away from us have three stoves in the window now...free delivery, free black pipe and a tub of fire cement..oh yeah and the girl is still selling the ribbon and selotape...I mean come off it.



Two many cowboys..not enough indians
or should that be



Too many box movers...not enough experts.


cynics feel we are trying to sell them more than you need, but we are more concerned with the safety of our customers. We only need one fatality or carbon monoxide incident to finish us. We invest significant time trying to undo the mess the untrained box mover caused by telling you it was OK or perhaps Mrs Smiths son, next door but one, who installed viterous enamel up through the daughters bedroom and into the attic, then out through the roof in a short 500mm length of twin wall because the plumbing counter guy, who worked there for three weeks on work experience told him that's what needed to do.



Get a grip of how dangerous fire and carbon monoxide is.


Now my rant is over too....for a while.



Keep up the good work Peter.

OK let me clarify. The regulation these quotes were taken from was Document J. This is the UK and Ireland regulations. I had a meeting with the Irish Standards Agency in Dublin and they told me that this is the regulations they have adopted. In the North of Ireland we work to technical booklet L.

The reason I mention about the flue pipes was to ensure your understanding of the need to have a socket joint pointing upwards to contain moistures. These are YOUR regulations. If you put a flue adapter in and install it UP INSIDE THE EXISTING liner you have an upside down joint which will lead to condensates leaking from it....It really is that simple.

Your assumption that liners are installed correctly is fool hardy to say the least. I have seen some weird and wonderful stuff up chimneys when builders think they are never going to be caught out. Again YOUR regulations suggest that the flue should be checked and, if necessary, altered to ensure that they satisfy the requirements for the proposed use.

You are quite right, this is an interesting discussion. I don't for one minute suggest you are doing anything wrong. I am merely pointing out that Document J suggests you are, and I would hope you have some documentation that shows you are complying in other ways. As a technical advisor to building control here in the North and after studying the two documents in detail, I would be delighted to see the amended document the Irish have so I can absorb such changes. This means that when customers come across the border with a better exchange rate, with the benefit of such a good motorway and we are only 30 minutes from Newry, I am able to quote these new regulations that I didn't realise existed.

I look forward to the link in the near future so I can download my copy.

Best regards

David

Peatheat,
the main point here is consumer safety. Life is precious.
The facts I have quoted speak for themselves. Look at the survey on www.csai.ie. People are not being advised of the regulations when enquiring about purchasing these. I am speaking from my experience having gone to several showrooms. If potential purchaers are not being informed of building regulations then we are dealing with a cowboy industry.
We are in enough of a mess in this country from greed. Dont always blame the government, take responsibility yourself since if lives are lost by not telling people the full facts, i.e. the dangers of these due to incorrect installation then you will have to live with it on your conscience.

Just had an intereting chat with Blacksmith this morning in an effort to be well informed for this discussion. I have seen them in building suppliers and hardware shops up here in the North and to be honest they didn't impress me. Added to this is the fact that they are prepared to sell their stoves to any Tom Dick and Harry who will stock them and move boxes, and you have a recipie for disaster. They are made in China, in their own factory apparently, but the workforce is Chinese, the quality control is Chinese, and the raw materials will more than likely be scrap metal from the western world that is resmelted and formed into a new weak stove. HOW CAN THESE THINGS BE SOLD AS ENVIRONMENTALLY SOUND HEATING SYSTEMS WHEN THEY TRAVEL THE GLOBE BACK AND FORTH CONSTANTLY WHEN THE ARSE FALLS OUT OF THEM?

The Boru is obviously in it's infancy, although their web site does make a bold claim to Irish Manufactured. I guess the proof will be in the pudding.

Clearview on the other hand have been making the same design of stove...nothing changed for 27 years, and if you have used one, nothing else will do, and if you see one burning you will know why people claim is the best product they have ever bought...check out reviews on www.whatstove.co.uk for impartial advice on all types of stove.

Dilbert the flex is connected with an adapter onto the stove. Use 904 grade steel for better performance. The baffle plate is taken out of the ceiling of the stove in a matter of seconds and low an behold, a 6" brush will sweep the chimney. The soot falls into the stove, cleaned up, and your ready to go for another year or so. Bear in mind if the insulation is used around the steel, you will find that the chimney doesn't clog up that much, and especially if you are burning good fuel. Dry logs are better at generating heat, and because of the cleaver design of the handle and hinge, you can make a simple adjustment on the door to ensure it is airtight all the time, meaning YOU control the burn rate. Cast Iron stoves are made of six plates bolted together. Cheap ones have fire cement seals...have you ever seen fire cement once it dries and crumbles. Where is your air tight seal between the plates when they expand and contract at different rates?

Here to help.

David