Is nordic Europe the model Ireland should follow?

irish_bob · 15-08-2009 11:09AM

EastWallGirl wrote: »

I think we will only see the results as people vote with their feet, which they are doing. There are alot of peole out there digging up that other passport or looking a their Permanent Residency visa and hedging their bets.

Finnish teachers may be paid 55% of Irish teachers but I imagine they are still able to buy houses and live a decent life style.

In any welfasre system once you are up to 8 children (and lets be honest most people do not have a stomach for that) it starts to pay better to sit at home then work. I do not think Irleand is on its own with that anomoly. People that sit on wlefare and have children toincrease what they have paid, have benn dragged up not brought up, these people are the ones trapped in the cycle of poverty, not those that are more recently unemployed.

There are other countries that have social partnership or a strong union movement and do not have the problems with silly levels of pay. I think one of the issues is that all those TDS that are teachers cannot say no to their own.

I worked in a company with a young danish guy who said there was a debate going on about this issue. He says after living here he thinks the danish system is the best. Those form Nordic countries who go to England or Ireland, I think you have to find out whether they are working for a nordic company as they keep all their employment rights including 6 weeks of leave 3 of which must be taken together during the winter.

I think it is incredibly sad that the government sees emmigration as a key policy platform. There will be a brain drain and the young will leave (and are leaving). And no offence once they get a better standard of living in Canada, New Zealand, Australia, main land Europe...will they come back. Not only that but emmigration for the educated is much more fluid now then it ever was there are opportunities in the Middle East and China, and China in particular is quite exciting place to live. Young Irish people now know nothing changes. To get anywhere you ahve to know someone ie: Ryan Tubridy.

are you suggesting that irish teachers cant afford houses or a decent lifestyle which is a subjective thing anyway , ive no doubt their will be a brain drain and many people will leave the country but they wont be fleeing the public sector , guards , nurses , consultants would all have to take a huge pay cut were they to go abroad

EastWallGirl · 15-08-2009 12:18PM

Actually I know a teacher who leaves in the next 2 weeks for the continent...

The way the price of houses increased in this country, houses were unaffordable. The mark up of everything that hits this fair shore means that the average industrial wage your choice is a house or children, you cannot do both.

The issue with some of the public sector jobs you speak of is that there has been a mafia mentality between the unions and government.

Look if you want me to be completely honest these was a lot of stupidity in the last 10 years in this country regarding peoples attitudes to the cost of the things. If was not expensive it was not worth it. I and my husband were laughed at because we did not borrow to furnish the house etc. There is something in the Irish psyche that wants instant gratification coupled with paranoid conviction that everyone else is earning more money. People are so convinced that they might be the next big player that they cheer when others beat the system hoping they will be next.

I do not think anyone who is exploring this idea on the thread wants a nanny state where everyon is looked after but there are a few things that are not profiable in an economic sense but are very profitable 'long term' and in a socio economic sense. These are education, health, and infrastructure such as transport, roads, and communcations. That is the reality. There is nothing inherantly wrong with this coming from the public purse and I do not mind paying taxes if it means children can read and write, there is infrasstructure for private investment that people are not homeless.

I myself do not understand why there are people who do not want to contribute to society but is not worth finding out how some countries areable to reduce this problem which have similar sized populations and the challenges economically.

The thing is that there has been record trax intake and EU grants and there is almost nothing to show for it. And what we do have is going ot be stripped away while taxes will increase.

Other countries have much better schemes for immigrants, particularly in the medical field. Australia and Canada for example allow the medical professional to come over with thier partner and children. The partners is allowed to work and the children do not have to be christened to attend the local public school. This is not the case in Ireland.

I think we will see the effects of the brain drain as early as mid 2010. NZ, Australia and Canada have not been in recession, France and Germany are back to growth. Most of these countries and Asia have money and are looking at R&D because whatever country/company unlocks some of the environmental and technological challenges, that is where the next lot of money is.

worldrepublic · 15-08-2009 01:10PM

Unfortunately Norway has oil, Sweden has iron and uranium.... Ireland has (or used to have) potatoes.

Time to get real: the growth industry in Europe is about to become the manufacture of arms and the various military technologies. Many of the European players are getting ready to wade into this morally incomprehensible reality. How do we sell Ireland in this context? Lets see, we can throw (imaginary) potatoes at Al quaeda, etc. etc.?

tlev · 15-08-2009 03:01PM

worldrepublic wrote: »

Unfortunately Norway has oil, Sweden has iron and uranium.... Ireland has (or used to have) potatoes.

Time to get real: the growth industry in Europe is about to become the manufacture of arms and the various military technologies. Many of the European players are getting ready to wade into this morally incomprehensible reality. How do we sell Ireland in this context? Lets see, we can throw (imaginary) potatoes at Al quaeda, etc. etc.?

Are you seriously recommending that Ireland becomes a leading developer and manufacturer in weapons and surveillance?

That made my day.

Digi_Tilmitt · 16-08-2009 01:25AM

worldrepublic wrote: »

Unfortunately Norway has oil, Sweden has iron and uranium.... Ireland has (or used to have) potatoes.

You don't need natural resources to build an economy that can support a high quality of life. The Japanese have no natural resources, but they have specialised in high end manufacturing and have built a society that has much less crime, social issues etc. than the USA and other more free-market oriented countries.

The problem is that countries like Japan and the Scandinavian ones have a strong sense of togetherness, solidarity and sense of the greater good that is completely lacking in law of the jungle countries like the USA, Ireland, UK etc.. Without a significant shift in the social mindset of the country, it will difficult to build harmonious societies that work like those in Japan and Scandinavia.

irish_bob · 16-08-2009 09:46AM

Digi_Tilmitt wrote: »

You don't need natural resources to build an economy that can support a high quality of life. The Japanese have no natural resources, but they have specialised in high end manufacturing and have built a society that has much less crime, social issues etc. than the USA and other more free-market oriented countries.

The problem is that countries like Japan and the Scandinavian ones have a strong sense of togetherness, solidarity and sense of the greater good that is completely lacking in law of the jungle countries like the USA, Ireland, UK etc.. Without a significant shift in the social mindset of the country, it will difficult to build harmonious societies that work like those in Japan and Scandinavia.

you cant change an entire culture to that of another one you admire , the japaneese are a very controlled people , i dont mean in the way china controls thier population but japan while a democrocy is not exactly a country where individual free expression is heavily encouraged

SLUSK · 16-08-2009 10:06AM

Sweden is not a good role model, it is very much a class society. We have a middle class that has virtually no savings and live paycheck to paycheck like everywhere else, we have a growing underclass of foreigners from 3rd world countries with almost no chance of any gainful employment. Corruption is widespread. Because of high taxation it is very hard to save money and if something unforeseen happens like your car breaking down you could be in a really bad situation. Read thelocal.se for news about Sweden in English.

Yixian · 16-08-2009 02:14PM

Digi_Tilmitt wrote: »

You don't need natural resources to build an economy that can support a high quality of life. The Japanese have no natural resources, but they have specialised in high end manufacturing and have built a society that has much less crime, social issues etc. than the USA and other more free-market oriented countries.

The problem is that countries like Japan and the Scandinavian ones have a strong sense of togetherness, solidarity and sense of the greater good that is completely lacking in law of the jungle countries like the USA, Ireland, UK etc.. Without a significant shift in the social mindset of the country, it will difficult to build harmonious societies that work like those in Japan and Scandinavia.

This is EXACTLY right.

For whatever reason Scandinavia emerged out of World War 2 with a strong sense of social solidarity.

Italy, on the other hand, is the polar opposite of course - we all know that centuries of vacant kings left the role of the state to families and so Italian society is very family based and insular, traditionally not holding as much stock in "society". Fast forward a few hundred years and they have Berlusconi.

Britain by all rights should have been more similar to France and the Nordic countries than America, but it's empire-nostalgia and euro-phobia has continually pushed it closer to America in the hopes that it could maintain itself as a superpower by usurping as much of the public wealth as possible. Thatcher sealed the deal with her "there is no such thing as society" reforms that basically eliminated this countries proud history of social solidarity.

France has that kind of empire-nostalgia too but it's anti-anglo attitude and revolutionary past have landed it somewhere in between the anglo-american model and the nordic model.

Ireland.. well, Ireland lost the progressive nature of it's revolution to the civil war. I really don't understand why it doesn't have the same kind of social solidarity as Finland or Denmark but perhaps it has something to do with the fact that up until recently it has been largely agricultural and it has to be said that the agricultural community in Europe tends to be far more conservative and insular than the urban one. It seems whenever these people run into a bit of money their only desire is to make a quick buck off of it and retire back to the farm. It's no coincidence that there's much more left wing support amongst the urban population of almost any European country.

But actually, contrary to what irish_bob says, countries can change their attitudes - Britain did, for the worse, so maybe countries like Ireland and Italy can for the better. Nordic style democratic socialism isn't possible with social solidarity, so if you want their quality of life then you know what the problem is.

It's a shame as it is because Ireland could pull the nordic model off perhaps better than any of them. It's small, centralised and relatively wealthy, the perfect conditions for effective democratic socialism.

irish_bob · 16-08-2009 03:53PM

Yixian wrote: »

This is EXACTLY right.

For whatever reason Scandinavia emerged out of World War 2 with a strong sense of social solidarity.

Italy, on the other hand, is the polar opposite of course - we all know that centuries of vacant kings left the role of the state to families and so Italian society is very family based and insular, traditionally not holding as much stock in "society". Fast forward a few hundred years and they have Berlusconi.

Britain by all rights should have been more similar to France and the Nordic countries than America, but it's empire-nostalgia and euro-phobia has continually pushed it closer to America in the hopes that it could maintain itself as a superpower by usurping as much of the public wealth as possible. Thatcher sealed the deal with her "there is no such thing as society" reforms that basically eliminated this countries proud history of social solidarity.

France has that kind of empire-nostalgia too but it's anti-anglo attitude and revolutionary past have landed it somewhere in between the anglo-american model and the nordic model.

Ireland.. well, Ireland lost the progressive nature of it's revolution to the civil war. I really don't understand why it doesn't have the same kind of social solidarity as Finland or Denmark but perhaps it has something to do with the fact that up until recently it has been largely agricultural and it has to be said that the agricultural community in Europe tends to be far more conservative and insular than the urban one. It seems whenever these people run into a bit of money their only desire is to make a quick buck off of it and retire back to the farm. It's no coincidence that there's much more left wing support amongst the urban population of almost any European country.

But actually, contrary to what irish_bob says, countries can change their attitudes - Britain did, for the worse, so maybe countries like Ireland and Italy can for the better. Nordic style democratic socialism isn't possible with social solidarity, so if you want their quality of life then you know what the problem is.

It's a shame as it is because Ireland could pull the nordic model off perhaps better than any of them. It's small, centralised and relatively wealthy, the perfect conditions for effective democratic socialism.

i see your still telling the country whats best for it

Yixian · 16-08-2009 04:14PM

irish_bob wrote: »

i see your still telling the country whats best for it

I'll give you €20 to actually refute what I'm saying rather than make meaningless remarks like that.

I don't decide this is what's best for a country, history does, sociology does, economics does, and for the record every argument made for the nordic model in Ireland can be applied to almost every other country in the EU. You mistake urgency for arrogance, the reason why I am so insistent is that quite literally lives and livelihoods are at stake when it comes to economics - you might be rich enough for it to all to be arbitrary numbers to you but believe me it's quite real to the hundreds of thousands losing their jobs across the continent because of pig-headed incompetent economics.

Oh and as to your remark about finnish teacher salaries, as I said before, there's more to public funding of the entire education industry than the wages of individuals teachers. Much more. I'm sure you know that really.

Your entire world view seems to revolve around a kind of paranoid resentment towards people who you deem do not deserve the money or quality of life they are getting. It's inherently negative and inward-looking, perhaps the reason Ireland, you say (I don't know), doesn't have the same kind of social solidarity as countries like Finland, starts with people like you? There obviously is a lot of waste but when you come at it from the angle of bitterness, market efficiency and "people need to look after themselves" you end up with a miserable society.

irish_bob · 16-08-2009 05:34PM

Yixian wrote: »

I'll give you €20 to actually refute what I'm saying rather than make meaningless remarks like that.

I don't decide this is what's best for a country, history does, sociology does, economics does, and for the record every argument made for the nordic model in Ireland can be applied to almost every other country in the EU. You mistake urgency for arrogance, the reason why I am so insistent is that quite literally lives and livelihoods are at stake when it comes to economics - you might be rich enough for it to all to be arbitrary numbers to you but believe me it's quite real to the hundreds of thousands losing their jobs across the continent because of pig-headed incompetent economics.

Oh and as to your remark about finnish teacher salaries, as I said before, there's more to public funding of the entire education industry than the wages of individuals teachers. Much more. I'm sure you know that really.

Your entire world view seems to revolve around a kind of paranoid resentment towards people who you deem do not deserve the money or quality of life they are getting. It's inherently negative and inward-looking, perhaps the reason Ireland, you say (I don't know), doesn't have the same kind of social solidarity as countries like Finland, starts with people like you? There obviously is a lot of waste but when you come at it from the angle of bitterness, market efficiency and "people need to look after themselves" you end up with a miserable society.

your smug condescension really knows no bounds

SkepticOne · 16-08-2009 07:00PM

djpbarry wrote: »

Country/Region|Tax-to-GDP (%)
Ireland|31.2
UK|36.3
EU|37.5
Finland|43.0
Norway|43.6
Sweden|48.3
Denmark|48.7

Our GDP figures are exagerated by foreign multinationals running profits through the country. I wouldn't use them in international comparisons.

ei.sdraob · 16-08-2009 07:22PM

SkepticOne wrote: »

Our GDP figures are exagerated by foreign multinationals running profits through the country. I wouldn't use them in international comparisons.

Exactly also one of the variables of GDP is government spending

which has been greatly increased in almost all countries in last year via borrowed money

I wouldn't trust GDP measures at all, theres lies, theres statistics and then theres GDP

SkepticOne · 16-08-2009 07:44PM

I think we probably pay enough taxes. What we need to look at is what we're getting in return for our taxes. Are we getting value for money?

tlev · 16-08-2009 08:15PM

SkepticOne wrote: »

I think we probably pay enough taxes. What we need to look at is what we're getting in return for our taxes. Are we getting value for money?

Well we are entertained a lot. A lot of 'Wow I can't believe that happened' and 'OMG did you just see what they did there' moments in this country. We also get this great puppet show with a main character called 'Biffo'.

And our bankers and property developers get the best care in the world, surely that counts as value for money....:D:D

SkepticOne · 16-08-2009 08:22PM

tlev wrote: »

Well we are entertained a lot. A lot of 'Wow I can't believe that happened' and 'OMG did you just see what they did there' moments in this country. We also get this great puppet show with a main character called 'Biffo'.

And our bankers and property developers get the best care in the world, surely that counts as value for money....:D:D

That's the problem in Ireland. You could raise taxes to Nordic levels but the ordinary public would not see the benefit in services. It would all be swallowed up in looking after the vested interests, benchmarking, etc.

Let's look for more for the existing amount of tax we spend first and on that basis decide then whether we want it increased.

irish_bob · 16-08-2009 11:12PM

SkepticOne wrote: »

That's the problem in Ireland. You could raise taxes to Nordic levels but the ordinary public would not see the benefit in services. It would all be swallowed up in looking after the vested interests, benchmarking, etc.

Let's look for more for the existing amount of tax we spend first and on that basis decide then whether we want it increased.

or lets simply not spend it all on wages to our public servants , then we can reduce class sizes , increase hospital bed numbers and not have to close down rural garda stations

SkepticOne · 17-08-2009 12:49AM

irish_bob wrote: »

or lets simply not spend it all on wages to our public servants , then we can reduce class sizes , increase hospital bed numbers and not have to close down rural garda stations

I think the trust that the money will be spent appropriately is gone in Ireland and won't come back for a long time.

irish_bob · 17-08-2009 02:33PM

SkepticOne wrote: »

I think the trust that the money will be spent appropriately is gone in Ireland and won't come back for a long time.

fianna fail have one concern and goal when spending money , how will this reward us electoraly

Permabear · 17-08-2009 02:58PM

This post has been deleted.

Yixian · 17-08-2009 10:31PM

irish_bob wrote: »

or lets simply not spend it all on wages to our public servants , then we can reduce class sizes , increase hospital bed numbers and not have to close down rural garda stations

Fully agreed.

But this must not be done through privatisation.

If the government is incompetent, elect a new government, campaign, protest, go into politics yourself etc. - don't give the government a mandate to sell itself out to private business.

In that scenario everyone loses besides the CEOs of those companies, quality of life in Ireland will go nowhere but down and fast.

Don't get me wrong I'm no big fan of Labour, they are perhaps the most spineless party in Ireland, but with FF null and void the choice is between them and FG, and FG is the absolute worst case scenario.

irish_bob · 17-08-2009 10:59PM

Yixian wrote: »

Fully agreed.

But this must not be done through privatisation.

If the government is incompetent, elect a new government, campaign, protest, go into politics yourself etc. - don't give the government a mandate to sell itself out to private business.

In that scenario everyone loses besides the CEOs of those companies, quality of life in Ireland will go nowhere but down and fast.

Don't get me wrong I'm no big fan of Labour, they are perhaps the most spineless party in Ireland, but with FF null and void the choice is between them and FG, and FG is the absolute worst case scenario.

im in favour of a private health system , im in favour of competition among electricity suppliers , transport in the capital etc

btw , what is so scary about fg

djpbarry · 18-08-2009 10:26AM

EastWallGirl wrote: »

…China in particular is quite exciting place to live.

Let’s not go nuts.

EastWallGirl wrote: »

The thing is that there has been record trax intake and EU grants and there is almost nothing to show for it.

Really? Nothing at all? I’m guessing you’re old enough to remember what this country was like in the 80’s and early 90’s? Are you honestly saying that almost nothing has changed since then?

EastWallGirl wrote: »

I think we will see the effects of the brain drain as early as mid 2010.

I think it’s already well underway – an estimated 50,000 to leave this year and 60,000 to follow in 2010 according to the ESRI.

djpbarry · 18-08-2009 10:26AM

SkepticOne wrote: »

Our GDP figures are exagerated by foreign multinationals running profits through the country.

Granted, but a high GDP figure is a reasonably good indicator of a country being awash with money.

Permabear · 18-08-2009 11:23AM

This post has been deleted.

ei.sdraob · 18-08-2009 12:08PM

djpbarry wrote: »

Granted, but a high GDP figure is a reasonably good indicator of a country being awash with money.

no it means some people/entities or government (their borrowing counts towards GDP btw) are awash with money since distribution of money is not equal and we know theres a huge gap between rich and poor

as I keep repeating every time GDP is brought up take GDP and especially GDP per capita with grain of salt

heres a prime example Equatorial Guinea

with all the oil they are meant to have a GDP per capita of more than $30,000 (Ireland is $49,000)

but they are almost all piss poor and ranking at the bottom of the HDI tables except for the wealthy few who siphoned off all the oil money

SkepticOne · 18-08-2009 12:16PM

djpbarry wrote: »

Granted, but a high GDP figure is a reasonably good indicator of a country being awash with money.

It works for a lot of countries but special care needs to be taken with countries like Ireland. A foreign multinational can run vast amounts of profit through a comparatively small Irish operation and this boosts our GDP figures but may have little impact on the real economy here.

Nothing wrong with the multinationals doing this, imo. Better they pay 12% corporation tax on vast profits than say 25% in some other country and nothing in Ireland. But we need to be aware of what the GDP figure actually means.

ei.sdraob · 18-08-2009 12:34PM

SkepticOne wrote: »

It works for a lot of countries but special care needs to be taken with countries like Ireland. A foreign multinational can run vast amounts of profit through a comparatively small Irish operation and this boosts our GDP figures but may have little impact on the real economy here.

Nothing wrong with the multinationals doing this, imo. Better they pay 12% corporation tax on vast profits than say 25% in some other country and nothing in Ireland. But we need to be aware of what the GDP figure actually means.

exactly GDP like all statistics needs to be taken with a huge list of ifs and buts attached

heres the formula

GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports − imports)

private consumption - this has been falling for last year almost across the board (deflation)
gross investment - companies are pulling out
government spending - this gone up quite a bit and is on borrowed money, and then theres the 90billion NAMA joke
exports - thankfully these are holding strong
imports - we import quite a bit and some items like fuels at great expense

GDP per Capita = GDP / Population

lets do some interesting math

90 billion for NAMA (money from ECB in form of bonds cached in by banks) thru government spending

GDP Total = $191.9 billion (2008 est.)

$192b + $127b = 319 billion $ GDP!!!! :eek:

319billion / 4,203,200 (July 2009 est.) people = 75,894$ GDP per capita!

WOA we are the richest people in world!

:eek: :P

now do people see:

1. GDP figures are not to be trusted!
2. NAMA is a terrible joke

bikeblues · 18-08-2009 12:58PM

to the op

YES , if we replace the irish population with the cleaner , more socially conscious , less greedy , and morally upstanding - NORDICS

otherwise you may as well put a bowtie on a pig .

Yixian · 18-08-2009 02:56PM

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Compare the US health system with the British one?

Compare the British transport system with the French one? Note that the Brits are even looking to RENATIONALISE part of their rail network after privatisation lead to a skyrocketing of ticket costs in the UK.

Do you really need me to point out the examples?!?!

No, you don't, there is literally no excuse to support privatisation anymore, it is an abject failure of an economic model and an aberration of democracy.

Let's actually consider what privatisation is: conservative governments are elected, they support "small government" and by that they mean "small democracy" - "we are incompetent!" they yell down to the public, "government is inherently incapable of running any public services!" and the mindless drones amongst us are only too quick to agree with them, "the market is a strange pseudo-religious force that will miraculously solve all of our problems!". Health, education and transport is then sold out to private organisations, conveniently unaccountable to the public, that can divide up the nations infrastructure and pull it in 100 different directions with the only aim being making a quick buck off of it.

The number of billionaires in the country may double but the cost of health care, education and transport goes up for us average joes.

Privatisation is of no benefit to anyone but the board of directors of the private businesses which buy up these public services, and the conservative party who made these sales and who no longer have to worry about promising anything of any substance to the public in order to be elected.

Unless you are one of these people, supporting privatisation is shooting yourself in the foot, do yourself a favor and literally do the latter, come back and tell me if you thought it was a good idea and save Ireland the miserable fate the UK has befallen since rampant privatisation has left it lagging behind the rest of western europe in almost every area of public life.

Is nordic Europe the model Ireland should follow?

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