Is nordic Europe the model Ireland should follow?

EastWallGirl

Today's Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepublic/2009/aug/05/scandinavia-recession-welfare-state

Ireland ticked quite a few of these boxes, it would really seem where the Governemnt fell down was bank regulation.

Interesting contrast to the Government's plans.

Any budget surplus and ability to borrow is going to look after 50 builders and their banking friends. It is as simple as that.

ei.sdraob

EastWallGirl wrote: »

Today's Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepublic/2009/aug/05/scandinavia-recession-welfare-state

Ireland ticked quite a few of these boxes, it would really seem where the Governemnt fell down was bank regulation.

Interesting contrast to the Government's plans.

Any budget surplus and ability to borrow is going to look after 50 builders and their banking friends. It is as simple as that.

if FF think they can follow the Nordic example then they are truly delusional

they couldn't follow a donkey with a cart if their lives dependent on it, useless bunch of wasters (with 90billion for NAMA a "waster" takes on a new level!) oh and then theres the Greens with their "carbon" taxes to save the planet, how about saving the country first

gurramok

Won't happen. There is a section of Irish society from the top wealthy to the lower income levels that is selfish in that they do not give two hoots about other people, they will not pay higher taxes for a better return of services. They are the mé féin element of Irish society.

Interwined with that is perceived or real corruption/waste at the top levels of govt and people get mightily p1ssed off seeing their money thrown away and refuse to pay more taxes(can you blame them).

So a Nordic model won't happen here as alot of people think of their own euro's first(voting FF) rather than the welfare of the nation.

is_that_so

EastWallGirl wrote: »

Today's Guardian:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepublic/2009/aug/05/scandinavia-recession-welfare-state

Ireland ticked quite a few of these boxes, it would really seem where the Governemnt fell down was bank regulation.

Interesting contrast to the Government's plans.

Any budget surplus and ability to borrow is going to look after 50 builders and their banking friends. It is as simple as that.

In an ideal world of course it would but considering the sounds of of toys being flung violently out of prams it would never happen here. There are still people out there banging on about the "double taxation" of bin charges. Like every article of that type it ignores the fact that neither we nor the British are Nordic and we just don't think like them.

We don't like paying taxes and will do our best to avoid them. Nor do we have enough of a collective conscience to even entertain the notion of such huge tax rates. Furthermore it would most likely increase the temptation for some elements to embrace welfare as a way of life.

As for the builders comment well we're stuck with that, part of which IMO we are to blame for anyway in our own blind lemming-like obsession with property. We need to fix the crisis and there's nothing simple about it at all. A quick read on the current Liam Carroll case and the labyrinthine business set-up is clear evidence of that.

While it may make people feel good to rant about bailouts, cronies and all kinds of other over-used clichés I find myself agreeing with Cowen, inaction is just not an option. Regrettably that is going to cost an awful lot of money.

jmayo

I think our ruling elite would rather follow the Zimbabwean model :rolleyes:

Yixian

Politics really isn't that hard. If you want a nice, low crime, high quality of life country there really is only one thing you have to do: copy Finland.

Whatever they do, just do the same freaking thing.

For moderate success try copying France or Spain.

As it stands Ireland tends to just copy Britain, which is one of the only wrong answers in western Europe. I don't know how many times the Anglo-American model has to fail before Ireland decides "hmm hang on maybe we should try something that.. you know.. WORKS" -_-

EastWallGirl

Yixian wrote: »

As it stands Ireland tends to just copy Britain, which is one of the only wrong answers in western Europe. I don't know how many times the Anglo-American model has to fail before Ireland decides "hmm hang on maybe we should try something that.. you know.. WORKS" -_-

I would also add that the population base for those 2 countries has in part allowed them to have the success so far, plus their political muscle and empire building ways. Ireland does not have those three things and will find the diaspora will not be as loyal to the old country as they thought they would be (Ameican companies pulling out, how can they?). We will have to find another way and look to other small successful nations for clues.

The reason people do not want high taxes is that they have never seen anything for them. Record taxes were raised during the boom, the roads were paid for by the EU and other roads privatised with tolls, people still could not get a hospital bed and despite all those houses being bought and a booming population no one thought schools needed any money. People need to see their tax dollars at work.

irish_bob

gurramok wrote: »

Won't happen. There is a section of Irish society from the top wealthy to the lower income levels that is selfish in that they do not give two hoots about other people, they will not pay higher taxes for a better return of services. They are the mé féin element of Irish society.

Interwined with that is perceived or real corruption/waste at the top levels of govt and people get mightily p1ssed off seeing their money thrown away and refuse to pay more taxes(can you blame them).

So a Nordic model won't happen here as alot of people think of their own euro's first(voting FF) rather than the welfare of the nation.

agree with the above plus public sector workers in scandanavia have a great sense of duty where as here they have a great sense of entitlement , also agree with other posters that with such a generous wellfare state , too many would refuse to work , all in all , us irish are too cynical for such a system

Yixian

All this talk of "the irish don't think like the scandinavians", look, I grew up in England, you can still see the effects of Thatcherite "low tax, low spending" policy everywhere. You guys that grew up in Ireland, you don't realise, you haven't had a minors strike, you don't have a Hull or a South Wales. I hear Dubs complaining about the "derelict houses in the northside", believe me it's nothing, Ireland, even at the worst of it in the 80s, hasn't seen the kind of degradation that many parts of industrial Britain have. Huge swathes of the population were literally cast off to fend for themselves when bankers drove the economy into the ground and Thatcher dealt with it by sucking every last penny out of society, privatising everything, and pumping it into her fat cat friends. Everything from health care to transport was ruined and it has taken years to get it to even where it is now. Transport in particular is absolutely abysmal.

Every "cloud" in Britain - central London, Manchester, Birmingham etc. - has a ****-stained lining of gang crime, unemployment and dereliction in a way that no city in Ireland has.

This is what is coming if you keep down the Anglo-American route, if you really want to ensure a handful of bankers and CEOs remain super-rich even through the worst recessions, by all means, plough ahead down this road, but I cannot think of anything more depressing than a country that fought for so long against British rule following their stupid mistakes down a black hole when all it would take to pull Ireland right up there with Denmark, Sweden and Finland as places of permanently high quality of life for the vast majority of the population is state of mind.

Take the freaking tax hikes, don't stop public spending, boot the Americans out and start building homegrown industries. If you don't do this then Ireland will slip from no. 1 on the Un quality of life index right down to No. 29, where Britain is.

No. 29.. does London seem so awe-inspiring now? In 2005 Ireland was rated the best place in the entire world to live in terms of quality of life, and it's in danger of throwing that all away now, all thanks to cynicism and self-deprecation, the feeling that everyone else in the world still has it better than Ireland and that the only thing to do is bite the bullet and sell our soul to the Anglo-American model...

is_that_so

Yixian wrote: »

All this talk of "the irish don't think like the scandinavians", look, I grew up in England, you can still see the effects of Thatcherite "low tax, low spending" policy everywhere. You guys that grew up in Ireland, you don't realise, you haven't had a minors strike, you don't have a Hull or a South Wales. I hear Dubs complaining about the "derelict houses in the northside", believe me it's nothing, Ireland, even at the worst of it in the 80s, hasn't seen the kind of degradation that many parts of industrial Britain have. Huge swathes of the population were literally cast off to fend for themselves when bankers drove the economy into the ground and Thatcher dealt with it by sucking every last penny out of society, privatising everything, and pumping it into her fat cat friends. Everything from health care to transport was ruined and it has taken years to get it to even where it is now. Transport in particular is absolutely abysmal.

Every "cloud" in Britain - central London, Manchester, Birmingham etc. - has a ****-stained lining of gang crime, unemployment and dereliction in a way that no city in Ireland has.

This is what is coming if you keep down the Anglo-American route, if you really want to ensure a handful of bankers and CEOs remain super-rich even through the worst recessions, by all means, plough ahead down this road, but I cannot think of anything more depressing than a country that fought for so long against British rule following their stupid mistakes down a black hole when all it would take to pull Ireland right up there with Denmark, Sweden and Finland as places of permanently high quality of life for the vast majority of the population is state of mind.

Take the freaking tax hikes, don't stop public spending, boot the Americans out and start building homegrown industries. If you don't do this then Ireland will slip from no. 1 on the Un quality of life index right down to No. 29, where Britain is.

No. 29.. does London seem so awe-inspiring now? In 2005 Ireland was rated the best place in the entire world to live in terms of quality of life, and it's in danger of throwing that all away now, all thanks to cynicism and self-deprecation, the feeling that everyone else in the world still has it better than Ireland and that the only thing to do is bite the bullet and sell our soul to the Anglo-American model...

Agree with a lot here on Thatcher's Britain which was not a pleasant place. I'd suggest also that Britain still has not come to terms with what it means to be British now. This is something Scandinavians and many Northern Europeans do a lot; reflect on who and what they are - too much IMO. In that respect we are similar to Britain, we really don't know what we are. At a glance we appear to be some kind of Anglo-Americans wrapping ourselves in the most alluring parts of our folk mentality. All we can really say is that we are not what we used to be. However one thing hasn't changed , we constantly look for people to blame.

As for the huge taxes the last time we had really high taxes was in the 70s. It was the only way to compensate for the fact that we had little manufacturing or indigenous companies to speak of, at least not at a level of employment which could match our current multinationals. We could kick them out but seeing that they directly employ almost 10% of the private sector and who knows how many indirectly, kicking them out would not benefit us at all.

gurramok

It'll be gradual shift from a dependence on American MNC's. Grow a few Nokia type homegrown industries instead. But we(FF led) did not do that as all the money went into property instead of home grown export industries. :mad:

Remember, Finland had a huge housing bubble that burst in the very early 90s which devastated their economy. They recovered(took at least 12rs) and look at them now, the envy of Europe.

If only Ireland could be like that..maybe i'm dreaming

MoominPapa

Unfortunately I believe the roughly four centuries of homogenised Lutheranism Scandinavia enjoyed(?) was a prerequisite to the development of the social cohesion required to implement the Nordic model. Hope I'm wrong

eamonnm79

gurramok wrote: »

Won't happen. There is a section of Irish society from the top wealthy to the lower income levels that is selfish in that they do not give two hoots about other people, they will not pay higher taxes for a better return of services. They are the mé féin element of Irish society.

Yep spot on.
But the thing in Ireland that doesnt get talked about enough is how dispraportionately rural this section is.
Take a look at the results of the local elections and see how so many machivelian type politicians get elected in rural areas.

Country people vote for the local cute hoor because they believe he can get things done. If we are to become a more progressive society it is this small town small mind attitude that has to change.

EastWallGirl

Eamonn

You are absolutley right and I just had a shudder thinking about a certain Fianna fail councillor in Meath East, who obviosusly took political inspiration form the dad in Muriel's Wedding.

The thing is if you give it half a minute's thought this parish pump style of politics does not work, for example:I imagine broadband penetration in these countries is better then in Ireland. These countries are very proud of their rural culture and so should Ireland, in fact I am stunned how it is not marketed more.

Definitely any alter built to Friedman, Thatcher and Regan needs tearing down. People need to understand that Education, Health and Transport are not industries where there is naturally profit, that it needs investment and the payback can not just be measured economically, socio-economically etc. Trying to privatise and profitise everything does not work.

People need to be encouraged to start inventing in their shed and the likes of Enterprise Ireland and the Enterprise Boards need to be far more approachable. Even seminars around the country as to where they think the next big idea might be, would be a start.

Look at the high school kids who have a way to cure ringing ears via a download, how clever are they? There are more ideas out there.

There must be a way to re-educate people about how society should work. The BS has to be put aside and we have to start again with co-operative banks, make the civil service enjoyable, challenging and rewarding place to work in and start looking for the next bunch of good ideas.

ei.sdraob

jmayo wrote: »

I think our ruling elite would rather follow the Zimbabwean model :rolleyes:

I dont think they be able to get that model "right" either

"The difference is we;re Irish"



someone mentioned that we dont like paying taxes, who does? but we know taxes are necessary to a certain degree in order to keep the society from falling apart and hurting us,
a lot of people like me used to bite their lip and handover hard earned blood money as we know its the responsibility of a citizen



but in the last year seeing
*the extraordinary corruption and the bailout of banks and bloody builders directly and now indirectly via NAMA makes me sick,
* it makes me want to work less just so i dont pay the high rate of taxes, it makes me sick seeing that money going to the banks,
* it makes me sick seeing that money going to a public sector who are being higher paid than their european counterparts yet don't offer better services,
*and then there are people who never bothered getting a job when there were plenty of them

LostinBlanch

There's too much cronyism and corruption here that isn't in Nordic countries, Iceland excepted, and look how well they're doing!

Even 60% of Irish politicians believe that Irish public life has significant corruption, linky.

ei.sdraob

EastWallGirl wrote: »

People need to be encouraged to start inventing in their shed and the likes of Enterprise Ireland and the Enterprise Boards need to be far more approachable. Even seminars around the country as to where they think the next big idea might be, would be a start.
.

People in Ireland are inventive, the problem is new business startups are discouraged via high taxes and red tape and thats from personal experience

Also EI are a bunch of $()6%*^ grrr, i seen them refuse funding to some high potential companies while handing over money to scam companies (i have first hand experience seeing this happen) setup specifically to woe EI with a nice presentation and no real prospect of making a profit in order to drain money for "research"

I will give you an example of how tough it is to start a business in Ireland (all of this from direct personal experience)


1. theres tape, red tape and even more paperwork
2. energy costs are high
3. telecom costs are stratospheric (my company pays 20 times less for bandwidth in US and continent than here, i kid you not!) while all the streets were dug up to put in fibre which is not used
4. despite countless empty office blocks lining the streets the commercial rents are crazy high (tho have fallen slightly)
5. VAT and all the paperwork that brings


if you somehow manage to make a profit
* paying employees means paying employer taxes
* if you are director and employee in the business you started then you have to also pay all sorts of income taxes like everyone else BUT you loose tax credits for being proprietor director and more
* corporation tax of 12.5% only applies to companies with more than 5 shareholders, small companies with 2 directors have to pay extra surcharges on top of corpo tax which effectively means the corpo rate for close companies and professionals is in region of 20-30%
* taking money out of the company via dividends is counted against your income tax and can be as high as 4x%
* VHI can no longer be counted as an expense



i will be going to my accountant/adviser later today in order to find out how to wind down my company and how to setup abroad , i am gathering info now on how to move,

working 7days a week for 2 years, morning to evening only to endup earning and benefiting slightly more than someone on welfare is downright discouraging

.

Macha

gurramok wrote: »

So a Nordic model won't happen here as alot of people think of their own euro's first(voting FF) rather than the welfare of the nation.

I agree that it probably won't change, although the public are starting to feel the reality of what public services will be like without having a handy windfall property tax to throw at unions/public workers/public services.

In this country, we have no idea what kind of tax levels it takes to provide a decent social welfare state.

I agree with your points about mefeinism and fear of mismanagement of spending.

EastWallGirl

LostinBlanch wrote: »

There's too much cronyism and corruption here that isn't in Nordic countries, Iceland excepted, and look how well they're doing!
.

Iceland rioted and got rid of their governemnt.

I think we are really underrating the people that slog day in day out who just want a roof over their heads in in a safe neighbourhood, good school close by and medical care when they need it - That is what everyone I know wants.

djpbarry

ei.sdraob wrote: »

People in Ireland are inventive, the problem is new business startups are discouraged via high taxes...

What high taxes?

ei.sdraob

djpbarry wrote: »

What high taxes?

read my post i listed them, will do so again then for your benefit:


* employer taxes for paying wages/salaries
* personal taxes, small companies have the directors as main and sometimes only employees, but directors loose tax credits such as PAYE one hence they pay more tax than someone who doesn't have a business
* corporation tax of 12.5% is geared towards multinationals, "close" small companies and professionals get hit with surcharges which means their effective corpo rate is alot higher (20+ %) read > http://www.finance.gov.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/Publications/tsg/tsg9907.htm and http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=7476
*taking money out of the company as divident goes against your income tax
* taking loans out of the company is very shady and unless you are Sean Fitzpatrick you will get in trouble with nice Revenue people
* transferring shares means paying stamp duty on their value
* closing the company means paying a capital gains tax
* and finally alot of expenses that could have been claimed as business expenses before like VHI are not so anymore



all of these + VAT + red tape means extra weight on small startups, most of which fail, and majority don't make profits at all for few years

you get taxed to your eyeballs if you are an entrepreneur starting with own company, in many cases it is not worth the hassle, i dont know how many companies havent made it because of the redtape and taxman but Ireland is toxic soil for small enterprise, and there are many other factors listed in my earlier post in this thread



please prove me otherwise

.

Yixian

I agree that a lot of the problem seems to be the maniacs the culchies elect, but there's also an issue with the city folks. The amount of pure undiluted cynicism amongst the Irish urban population is just spectacular, everybody is intent on shooting ideas down, berating any course of action anyone from either side of the political spectrum takes and nay-saying any kind of ideology or idealism.

I don't know whether that's worse than the American fanatical neo-liberalism or the absolute apathy of the British public but it certainly does not help when the time comes to change government. All the parties out there offering an alternative to the model that got Ireland in this mess; Labour, SF, Socialists Party etc. take your pick, are ignored by so many city peeps who think they're so above their idealism.

How do you think Ireland got it's independence? How do you think France became a republic? How do you think anything that mattered in history got done? Idealism. Pragmatism and moderate politics is nothing but a buffer between eras of change and if people really want change in Ireland then it's time to start believing in something.

Serious, SF, Labour, the Socialists, even freaking éirígí - any of them will offer solutions to the bull****e you see around you. I guarantee you they are all better options than FF, let alone FG.

And for the record, Ireland, if it had the will, could quite easily become a nordic style nation and position itself practically as a scandinavian country. It has complete freedom to redefine itself right now, it can position itself more or less anywhere in the european stage it wants - just don't pick the British Isles >_>

irish_bob

EastWallGirl wrote: »

Eamonn

You are absolutley right and I just had a shudder thinking about a certain Fianna fail councillor in Meath East, who obviosusly took political inspiration form the dad in Muriel's Wedding.

The thing is if you give it half a minute's thought this parish pump style of politics does not work, for example:I imagine broadband penetration in these countries is better then in Ireland. These countries are very proud of their rural culture and so should Ireland, in fact I am stunned how it is not marketed more.

Definitely any alter built to Friedman, Thatcher and Regan needs tearing down. People need to understand that Education, Health and Transport are not industries where there is naturally profit, that it needs investment and the payback can not just be measured economically, socio-economically etc. Trying to privatise and profitise everything does not work.

People need to be encouraged to start inventing in their shed and the likes of Enterprise Ireland and the Enterprise Boards need to be far more approachable. Even seminars around the country as to where they think the next big idea might be, would be a start.

Look at the high school kids who have a way to cure ringing ears via a download, how clever are they? There are more ideas out there.

There must be a way to re-educate people about how society should work. The BS has to be put aside and we have to start again with co-operative banks, make the civil service enjoyable, challenging and rewarding place to work in and start looking for the next bunch of good ideas.

your talk od re-education and of how things should work kinda scares me , as for the comments about making the civil service an enjoyable place to work , to me , working in the highest paid ps in europe would be reason enough to be cheerfull

el sdroab , the huge level of red tape exists so as provide jobs for civil servants but i guess you know that already

Yixian

irish_bob wrote: »

your talk od re-education and of how things should work kinda scares me , as for the comments about making the civil service an enjoyable place to work , to me , working in the highest paid ps in europe would be reason enough to be cheerfull

I have no idea what it's like working for public services but if you think money defines how enjoyable a job is you're dead wrong and this is one of the reasons countries like Britain are ranked amongst the most unhappy in the developed world, and exactly what Ireland needs to avoid like the plague.

In the end, quality of life is the only thing that matters. GDP, economic growth and all of that are all secondary in importance to quality of life - you want to enjoy working, living and raising a family in a country more than you care whether it's GDP is up 2%. Now, to the extent that GDP is exclusively required to raise QoL, Ireland should do what it can to raise it... and no further, and it should focus on everything else needed to raise QoL, eg..... copy Finland....

All effort should be put into education, health care and transport. Fund the arts as much as you can as festivals, parades, films, theatre, opera, books, video games, TV, exhibitons etc. are a large part of what makes our lives worth living in the developed world, to be quite honest. The other part of what makes us happy, social interaction, also needs direct government support, and by that I mean doing everything you can to reduce racism, sexism, homophobia etc. and encouraging events and interaction between the new immigrant communities, reducing working hours so people can spend more time with their family and friends...

That's what makes a nation great. Crack that and you've found true success as a country.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/209953

I plan on leaving the UK the very second I finish my degree, and I ofc really want to live in Ireland, so please, don't let ^ happen, or I'll have to start learning suomi.

djpbarry

ei.sdraob wrote: »

you get taxed to your eyeballs if you are an entrepreneur starting with own company, in many cases it is not worth the hassle, i dont know how many companies havent made it because of the redtape and taxman but Ireland is toxic soil for small enterprise...

How does Ireland compare to the likes of Finland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark?

djpbarry

Yixian wrote: »

How do you think Ireland got it's independence? How do you think France became a republic? How do you think anything that mattered in history got done?

Through the use of violence, for the most part.

Yixian wrote: »

Serious, SF, Labour, the Socialists, even freaking éirígí - any of them will offer solutions to the bull****e you see around you.

Éirígí would have us withdraw from the EU and spend all our time learning Irish – how exactly would that help?

nyarlothothep

Yixian wrote: »

I have no idea what it's like working for public services but if you think money defines how enjoyable a job is you're dead wrong and this is one of the reasons countries like Britain are ranked amongst the most unhappy in the developed world, and exactly what Ireland needs to avoid like the plague.

In the end, quality of life is the only thing that matters. GDP, economic growth and all of that are all secondary in importance to quality of life - you want to enjoy working, living and raising a family in a country more than you care whether it's GDP is up 2%. Now, to the extent that GDP is exclusively required to raise QoL, Ireland should do what it can to raise it... and no further, and it should focus on everything else needed to raise QoL, eg..... copy Finland....

All effort should be put into education, health care and transport. Fund the arts as much as you can as festivals, parades, films, theatre, opera, books, video games, TV, exhibitons etc. are a large part of what makes our lives worth living in the developed world, to be quite honest. The other part of what makes us happy, social interaction, also needs direct government support, and by that I mean doing everything you can to reduce racism, sexism, homophobia etc. and encouraging events and interaction between the new immigrant communities, reducing working hours so people can spend more time with their family and friends...

That's what makes a nation great. Crack that and you've found true success as a country.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/209953

I plan on leaving the UK the very second I finish my degree, and I ofc really want to live in Ireland, so please, don't let ^ happen, or I'll have to start learning suomi.

I'd get cracking on learning suomi or finnish. Fyi France has less working hours than Britain yet is more productive overall, so I've heard. Some research has shown that people can only really apply themselves for four hours at a time, the rest in spent coasting with diminishing returns.

Yixian

I have family in France working very low paying jobs and I can tell you they are more comfortable than the vast majority of people on the same wage in the UK.

ei.sdraob

djpbarry wrote: »

How does Ireland compare to the likes of Finland, Norway, Sweden and Denmark?

I dont know how it compares as I was never there

From quick research: they pay even more taxes :rolleyes: but their governments have fairly advanced schemes to support new enterprise in place and spend large amounts on r&d, not so here in Ireland where I could point out some very embarrassing companies that EI invested into (one of these companies i would love to name is now practically semi state as EI taught they could use 50% share stake as collateral, but they forgot that 50% of 0 is 0, quite a scam they fell for but things are being kept hush hush as it would look bad in the media)

also remember that these countries have a lot more natural resources than Ireland, with Norway having oil, gas, hydro, timber, mineral and fishing resources, Denmark is another example tax breaks and generous grants being given out to green companies resulted in them being one of the "greenest" countries in world when it comes to energy production, none of that here, the state pissed away the wealth and now will tax us to death


speaking of being taxed to death, how about this for a failure of welfare state and tax system
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Yue0Diuous

.

EastWallGirl

'your talk od re-education and of how things should work kinda scares me' Irish Bob

**Puts little red book back in the box with all the other little red books...for now**

I just think we need to realign ourselves as a society. We have become so insular, I think we need to emphasise community.


'as for the comments about making the civil service an enjoyable place to work , to me , working in the highest paid ps in europe would be reason enough to be cheerfull' Irish Bob

I have talked to enough people who have worked in areas of the public service that it can be an awful place to work especially if you have an idea or two. It certainly is not service orientated and nor does it explain anything in clear language.

Service orientated is not bowing and scraping to people, it is about having knowledge and being able to dispense it confidently.

Believe it or not there can be dissonance if someone is underpaid and also if someone is overpaid.


It would be interesting to know what the tax implications are for start up companies in these countries and how small companies are encouraged.

Here is one idea:

Dublin City Council should be sponsoring young talent to go into the empty shops on Graftopn and Henry Street. They work a couple of days a week, a % of sales goes to rent and the council pays the rest

Imagine this on Grafton Street (which now has empty shops) with young Irish designers being exposed to tourists all around the world? I know Powerscourt are doing some good work in this area, but lets get the good kids onto Grafton Street.

You could do this with Letterfrack Furniture School, NCAD, Craft guilds run Student shops even if it is over the summer. And before you say it this is a different market to the Kilkenny shop opposite Trinity, more experimental, more unknown.

Also the empty land that builders will not build on, some of that is close to town, it should be turned into allotments that people can rent and grow their own vegetables, it is amazing what you can grow in a polytunnel. Run courses, let the unemployed do them for nothing, that is how retraining and ideas for further education and new employment happens.

Run hot houses for young graduates and scientists and pay them so they can experiemnt and invent maybe for 6-12 month prgrammes and not just take the kids that tick the boxes and have 1:1.

Yixian

EastWallGirl wrote: »

Imagine this on Grafton Street (which now has empty shops) with young Irish designers being exposed to tourists all around the world? I know Powerscourt are doing some good work in this area, but lets get the good kids onto Grafton Street.

Make this girl mayor, nao.

irish_bob

Yixian wrote: »

I have no idea what it's like working for public services but if you think money defines how enjoyable a job is you're dead wrong and this is one of the reasons countries like Britain are ranked amongst the most unhappy in the developed world, and exactly what Ireland needs to avoid like the plague.

In the end, quality of life is the only thing that matters. GDP, economic growth and all of that are all secondary in importance to quality of life - you want to enjoy working, living and raising a family in a country more than you care whether it's GDP is up 2%. Now, to the extent that GDP is exclusively required to raise QoL, Ireland should do what it can to raise it... and no further, and it should focus on everything else needed to raise QoL, eg..... copy Finland....

All effort should be put into education, health care and transport. Fund the arts as much as you can as festivals, parades, films, theatre, opera, books, video games, TV, exhibitons etc. are a large part of what makes our lives worth living in the developed world, to be quite honest. The other part of what makes us happy, social interaction, also needs direct government support, and by that I mean doing everything you can to reduce racism, sexism, homophobia etc. and encouraging events and interaction between the new immigrant communities, reducing working hours so people can spend more time with their family and friends...

That's what makes a nation great. Crack that and you've found true success as a country.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/209953

I plan on leaving the UK the very second I finish my degree, and I ofc really want to live in Ireland, so please, don't let ^ happen, or I'll have to start learning suomi.

you sound like my hippy sister

mikemac

According to the OP's article some people in Scandanavia pay 60% tax :eek:

No thanks, I'd prefer to keep our supposed low tax :rolleyes: system.

Especially when I'm reading articles of families living on 3,800 per month from welfare, a lot more then I earn.

Sorry, don't feel any inclinition to pay more then the 41% plus levies and PRSI and benefit in kind and whatever I pay
Cut the billions in waste, only then consider tax rates.

djpbarry

ei.sdraob wrote: »

I dont know how it compares as I was never there

From quick research: they pay even more taxes…

That’s what I thought – I can’t imagine it’s all that cheaper or easier to start a business in Scandinavia than it is here.

ei.sdraob wrote: »

also remember that these countries have a lot more natural resources than Ireland…

They do indeed, but there’s not a whole lot we can do about that, is there?

djpbarry

EastWallGirl wrote: »

Dublin City Council should be sponsoring young talent to go into the empty shops on Graftopn and Henry Street.

There’s no way the chamber of commerce would allow it. Besides, I can’t imagine that empty units on Grafton Street will be empty for very long. There’s no way the owners of any empty premises are going to drop their rent to such an extent when they know that a retailer is prepared to pay more. We may be in a recession, but Grafton St is still lucrative shopping territory.

EastWallGirl wrote: »

Run hot houses for young graduates and scientists and pay them so they can experiemnt and invent maybe for 6-12 month prgrammes and not just take the kids that tick the boxes and have 1:1.

I’m not sure what you mean by this?

ei.sdraob

djpbarry wrote: »

That’s what I thought – I can’t imagine it’s all that cheaper or easier to start a business in Scandinavia than it is here.
They do indeed, but there’s not a whole lot we can do about that, is there?

How about not expecting to run a similar scale welfare state (or is it larger by now?) from tax proceeds on businesses that are leaving the country in the droves due to a wide range of negative factors

EastWallGirl

Yixian wrote: »

Make this girl mayor, nao.

As long as there are no rules about being natural born...


DJP Barry

The Dunnes shop on Grafton Street has been empty for a while...Grafton Street is one of the most overpriced streets in Europe and not only that...most of them are English chain stores. I have nothing against that but I know from teaching overseas students they are obsessed with anything Irish, even Penneys, why is this not harnessed?? If the dublin Chamber of Commerce 'dont like it' then I think we have touched on whar some of the issues are going ot be in this recession 'lets keep the status quo lads'... The media is always saying how well Irish design is received around the world lets showcase it and not just once a year at the RDS.


What I meant about the hot houses is that instead of young graduates or others with an inventive brain leaving let them have the financial freedom to invent for a year, and it should not be limited to to first class honours students as uni does not always suit the inventive mind. As I said we need to check people's garden sheds to see what they are doing how can these ideas be applied.

I am not saying it will be easy, the whole tax system has to be changed and the whole way this country has been run, has to change, conflict of interest issues need to be taken more seriously.

What needs to happen is to calculate what we pay in Ireland in taxes and services paid for in Ireland that are covered by taxes in these countries and make the comparison. I think we would be very suprised as to the value for money that is obtained for the higher taxes in these countries

djpbarry

EastWallGirl wrote: »

Grafton Street is one of the most overpriced streets in Europe…

Rents are high, but they will come down. I can’t see the owners of any premises on Grafton St bringing their rent down so low that the council will be able to take advantage.

EastWallGirl wrote: »

…and not only that...most of them are English chain stores. I have nothing against that but I know from teaching overseas students they are obsessed with anything Irish, even Penneys, why is this not harnessed??

You seem to be advocating protectionism? The reason that Dublin is over-run by foreign chains is because that’s where Dubliners want to shop. If Penneys see an opportunity to expand (hardly a good thing, in my opinion) then I’m sure they will take it.

EastWallGirl wrote: »

What I meant about the hot houses is that instead of young graduates or others with an inventive brain leaving let them have the financial freedom to invent for a year…

So we should throw money at kids in the hope that they might come up with something useful? Where is all this money going to come from?

ei.sdraob

the rents wont come down much as NAMA is gonna make sure theres no pressure on the market

there is a **** load of commercial property thats been empty for years around the country and in prime location, just visit galway for examples (we were discussing that in another thread)


in a proper market so much supply would have pushed rents down

but we are in a distorted market where its cheaper to leave a property sitting empty than try to rent it out

introduction of property tax and getting rid of NAMA would bring a flood of properties on the market and prices would go back down to earth, but that aint gonna happen now

this is perverse

taxpayers taxes will be used to keep the prices up via NAMA, and the high taxes would mean the taxpayers would have to work even harder to afford residential/commercial properties, this in turn forces high prices on other products/services and the rip of ireland continues

sickening

EastWallGirl

I would not say that I am a protectionist, I chose to shop in many British retail chains, but I also take time out to look for independent/individual design, clothing, jewellery etc. What I am saying is that Irish design is very well regarded. As a country we need to look at where we have a reputation and develop it, this is the time now, when costs are coming down and it may just be an opportunity for up an d coming talent.

Food is another area - Australia and New New Zealand export alot of food to the far east and Ireland also has a good reputation for food.

I think people need to see tangible, local attempts to find and replace jobs that have been lost.

I suppose the brainy inventors idea looks a bit random but if people with an idea were offered a years salary (€25-30,000) with patent support just to get in their to have the freedom and time to think and invent.


With this credit crunch/recession there have been 2 choices, shore up the banks or spend money to encourage growth to be ready for the next upswing. A couple of countries have tried to do both to a certain degree (UK, USA, Germany), other countries have had the luxury to pick economic, educational, technological development. Ireland could only afford 1 and has picked the builders and bankers.

When you think of the challenges the world faces in the next 50 years from energy (moving from fossil fuelsl) , food production (the cheap and unhealthy food will have to be eliminated) waste disposal, transport there are a few opportunites for new ideas.

The amount of money being spent on lawyers, accountants, barristers, economists, etc etc on NAMA and people give out about a relatively small amount to explore ways to be creative and productive in real work as opposed to paper shuffling.

There is potential in this country and other small economies have shown that they have successfully tapped their potential and become successful. There is something in the economic model in Ireland that is only working for a few the TD's some in the professional classes, bankers and builders. The majority have to stand up and start asking questions and doing their own research.

djpbarry

EastWallGirl wrote: »

What I am saying is that Irish design is very well regarded. As a country we need to look at where we have a reputation and develop it, this is the time now, when costs are coming down and it may just be an opportunity for up an d coming talent.

So what are you waiting for? Why don’t you set up a business showcasing Irish designers?

EastWallGirl wrote: »

I suppose the brainy inventors idea looks a bit random but if people with an idea were offered a years salary (€25-30,000) with patent support just to get in their to have the freedom and time to think and invent.

If someone has an idea that’s worthy of a patent, why do we need to offer them money to sit around and think about it? Where’s the money going to come from? What sort of return-on-investment will the taxpayer receive? If money’s going to be spent on ‘ideas’, I’d much rather see it spent on third-level research.

EastWallGirl wrote: »

With this credit crunch/recession there have been 2 choices, shore up the banks or spend money to encourage growth to be ready for the next upswing.

What money? We don’t have any!

WinstonSmith

A lot of very silly people here: Couldn't be bothered paying high taxes; economics all that matter, and on the other side kick American MNC's out. Neither option right now is very viable. One must begin with education so that natural indigenous resources can be found and exploited. When that happens then there will be a sufficient income to replace the MNC's and taxes can be gradually raised. Cutting the funding to education as was done recently is completely the wrong way to go. Will anyone disagree with that!?

Yixian

When I say "boot the Americans out" I don't mean literally kick them out of Ireland, I mean try and phase them out wth homegrown industry. For some reason Ireland thought the diaspora would do what they haven't done for any other country on earth and stick with it even when the country became inevitably less competitive..

They are first and foremost capitalists, that what everything boils down to in the world today; profit.

"The history of all hitherto existing society is the history of class struggles", nothing has changed, the CEO can make better money elsewhere and now they're off, not even the most die hard neo-liberal could deny this was coming. When you boil it down it's same cycle wherever you are in the world. The task now is to MAKE things ourselves rather than just skim off the margins of American companies that make things for us.

Science, technology, art; these are the areas Ireland needs to focus. Green energy and video games would be a good start, both classic recession proof industries. You don't even have to care about any of them, they all make money regardless of the economic climate right now. Crytek's having to leave Germany soon, Ireland should have been there to snap them up but instead they'll go to Hungary or Poland. Ditto energy, Ireland is a small enough country to fuel by an almost 50/50 split between nuclear and renewable energy, it should already be on the road to this and preparing to sell that energy back to inflexible markets like the UK.

EastWallGirl

djpbarry wrote: »

So what are you waiting for? Why don’t you set up a business showcasing Irish designers?
If someone has an idea that’s worthy of a patent, why do we need to offer them money to sit around and think about it? Where’s the money going to come from? What sort of return-on-investment will the taxpayer receive? If money’s going to be spent on ‘ideas’, I’d much rather see it spent on third-level research.
What money? We don’t have any!

Maybe I will, I have to make sure I do not step on CCOI toes. I am sure there are few more Orla Kiely's out there.

But if I set up something, am I not just reinventing the wheel? We have Enterprise Ireland and local Enterprise Boards. They need to take more risks, be more experimental.

My point about the hot house, is that you have talented people bouncing ideas off each other, not tired from working 9-5, with facilities and a budget. I also think third level research should also be funded, but not all people with potential are able to do third level research.

You are right we dont have money, because we wrote big cheques to improve liquidity...to get the banks lending and they are hoarding the funds the government wrote cheques for billions.

If you added up PAYE tax, VAT tax, all the vehicle registration charges, extra charges for the school year all the user pays charges, road tolls, private health insurance I wonder what the 'tax rate' would be then?

Compare this figure to the rates in these countries.

Then look at what they get and what the Irish taxpayer gets, compare hospital waiting lists, cost of food, industrial relations (6 weeks leave in Denmark!!). I think we would be asking the government some serious questions.

joseph brand

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I'd get cracking on learning suomi or finnish. Fyi France has less working hours than Britain yet is more productive overall, so I've heard. Some research has shown that people can only really apply themselves for four hours at a time, the rest in spent coasting with diminishing returns.

people used to work 14 hrs per/day in the 19th century.Bread and margarine was the mainstay with a cup of dirty tea. You were almost worked to death, via the workhouse idea. Novel approach to elderly.
Now, the 8hr day was introduced due to the Industrial Revolution, ie. with the help of machines, people could work less hours, but achieve same output, or more, with help of tools.

In Tressell's novel, 'The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists', he calls for a 4 hour working day, to allow employees to have leisure time, to pursue hobbies and grow mentally. (just like the employers). He believed it was possible due to the invention of the machine. But as you well know, it will always be a tug-of-war between the workers and the 'fat cats'.

Crude Example: 10 men produce 100 products/ day. (8 hours)
10 men and 2 tools produce 200 products/day. (8 hours)

Now, halve the working day, and they still produce 100 products/ day.

I know its wishful thinking.

Also big up to Havok, the video games developer started here in Trinity College with offices around the world. Just an example of a home grown company [With world leading expertise in physics, animation and tools,]

joseph brand

EastWallGirl wrote: »

Eamonn

You are absolutley right and I just had a shudder thinking about a certain Fianna fail councillor in Meath East, who obviosusly took political inspiration form the dad in Muriel's Wedding.

The thing is if you give it half a minute's thought this parish pump style of politics does not work, for example:I imagine broadband penetration in these countries is better then in Ireland. These countries are very proud of their rural culture and so should Ireland, in fact I am stunned how it is not marketed more.

Definitely any alter built to Friedman, Thatcher and Regan needs tearing down. People need to understand that Education, Health and Transport are not industries where there is naturally profit, that it needs investment and the payback can not just be measured economically, socio-economically etc. Trying to privatise and profitise everything does not work.

People need to be encouraged to start inventing in their shed and the likes of Enterprise Ireland and the Enterprise Boards need to be far more approachable. Even seminars around the country as to where they think the next big idea might be, would be a start.

Look at the high school kids who have a way to cure ringing ears via a download, how clever are they? There are more ideas out there.

There must be a way to re-educate people about how society should work. The BS has to be put aside and we have to start again with co-operative banks, make the civil service enjoyable, challenging and rewarding place to work in and start looking for the next bunch of good ideas.

Anyone have a link for this idea for ears?? Cheers.

ChocolateSauce

There is a lot to be said for the Nordic model...but I have some concerns regarding economic freedom. I also think that we wouldn't be able to do it. Better to move to Norway.

In Norway, road tax and car insurance is included in the price of petrol, meaning that every car is always insured and taxed, and you only pay insurance and tax based on how much you drive. This kind of thinking is magical.

ei.sdraob

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

There is a lot to be said for the Nordic model...but I have some concerns regarding economic freedom. I also think that we wouldn't be able to do it. Better to move to Norway.

In Norway, road tax and car insurance is included in the price of petrol, meaning that every car is always insured and taxed, and you only pay insurance and tax based on how much you drive. This kind of thinking is magical.

that sort of system is too simple to comprehend

it would never work here

Yixian

ei.sdraob wrote: »

that sort of system is too simple to comprehend

it would never work here

If Labour and SF would get over their pathetic civil war feuding and form a united left coalition, they'd pull a good few left-leaning FFers - that, maybe including the greens, as opposition to Fine Gael, would stand a good chance of winning the next election I'm sure if it proposed the nordic model. It's not that the Irish don't want it, they're just too cynical to believe it can happen in Ireland, but with a strong credible party proposing it as a future for Ireland post-recession, I reckon the tide might start to turn.

ei.sdraob

Yixian wrote: »

If Labour and SF would get over their pathetic civil war feuding and form a united left coalition, they'd pull a good few left-leaning FFers - that, maybe including the greens, as opposition to Fine Gael, would stand a good chance of winning the next election I'm sure if it proposed the nordic model. It's not that the Irish don't want it, they're just too cynical to believe it can happen in Ireland, but with a strong credible party proposing it as a future for Ireland post-recession, I reckon the tide might start to turn.

anyone that gets dirtied by SF would not get my vote

labour can stand on their own feet without getting involved with that questionable crowd

Yixian

ei.sdraob wrote: »

anyone that gets dirtied by SF would not get my vote

labour can stand on their own feet without getting involved with that questionable crowd

^ This is the problem. All this "waah waah I don'r want to play with SF!" nonsense is the only reason there isn't a left coalition in Ireland and the only reason an FG-ruined future seems inevitable atm. Forget their past, look at their policies.

Labour has the right intentions but is completely spineless, they can't stand up on their own for 5 minutes without pandering to the right. SF and the Socialist Party is just the kind of backbone they need and Labour just the kind of sensibility SF and the Socialist Party need to turn their idealism into practical politics.

About 1/10 people will vote SF in the next election, probably - about 2.5/10 people will vote Labour. Far less will vote Socialist Party and Greens but all 4 together, if they can start to find compromises, stand a real chance of getting into a positions in Irish politics where they can actually make a difference.

As it stands all they will be for the next 15 years is a bunch of political commentators whining about the big boys from the sidelines.