PUA

LegacyUser · 17-08-2009 01:37AM #1

Hi everyone

Im sick of being unable to ever get a girlfriend and heard of the pick up community.
Now the common conscensus seems to be that if you cant get a girl without having to resort to this stuff you are a loser.

Honestly though it feels like its my only option. The only time I was ever with a girl I was completely hammered and she did everything (went no further than making out). I do tend to drink a lot at parties as a way of hopefully having someting like this happen again (that and I do enjoy my drink) but it has often ended me up in trouble. Ive seen people on here getting told advice such as be yourself or just wait but I honestly think thats nonsense. I know people who were given simila advice and still live sad lives alone as they push on past their 50s, too old to learn what they are doing wrong. So that option in my mind is a no go. Ive always been the type of person who actively works towards fixing problems in his life and this sounds like a solution.

However, the whole PUA thing, honestly it seems like those who take it too far end up becoming a little weird. Im wondering if anyone has had any experience with the pick up community (even the name seems a little creepy)

I dunno, is this what ive been forced to do. I can work on the obvious stuff like confidence (I dont come across as such a whiny sod in real life) and looks but it still seems like this is the only place I will get any real constructive feedback on what im doing wrong. It just pisses me off how there are people out there to whom this is second nature. granted there are things I can do that they cant, but if they wished to gain any of these skills they could go to college, read a book etc. It seems the skills I need to learn make me a loser.

What would you do?

Pete4779 · 17-08-2009 01:55AM

there may be some sort of taboo in a highly colloquial society where "everyone needs to be put in their place and kept there" like Ireland.

Ever notice women's magazines? All of the covers are about how to attract a man, how to date, what to wear, what to say, what not to say, etc., etc., . No "loser" status affored to women there, despite huge "PUA" style material being published every day.

If it's okay for women, they why not men? And why not see if it can give you some of the skills that you didn't have the opportunity to pick up (no pun intended) earlier in life.

Re: being yourself: this is code for people who actually have nothing to offer you at all. It's an insult, especially if it comes from people who you may regard as friends. If it was good advice, it would have been working, but clearly it doesn't, so they give lousy advice.

Re: wait: wait for what? Some princess in shining armour to come along and sweep you off your feet?

leggo · 17-08-2009 02:03AM

Done it. Met and interviewed Neil Strauss himself...we still email the odd time. Good friends with The Sneak (one of Style's Senior Coaches) and have dealt with all of those guys a fair bit.

Don't know where you're getting the 'loser' bit from. I used it after I gave up the booze last year and it served me well. I've helped a lot of guys out with it too and they've done quite well for themselves. So considering that these guys and I are quite happy with our lives...there's nobody who can really call us 'losers' with any sort of credibility.

Generally, people will label those who do it these because they haven't taken the time to actually understand what the whole community is about. The thought of people improving themselves threatens them because it forces them to look in the mirror and see things they're, perhaps, not happy with. I've seen it firsthand. It's out of fear and ignorance more than anything. Don't mind them.

Anyone I've known who has actually made an effort to understand it at least respects its merits...even if they don't actively practise it. Because the fact is: when done right, it makes sense and WORKS.

It's a great skill to have. Fascinating to learn about and can help your life in so many different ways. What you DO with this knowledge is entirely up to you.

honru · 17-08-2009 02:53AM

Women have make up, men have pick up.

Honestly though, when people view the PUA thing from an outsider's perspective, the usual characteristics get blown out of proportion, and rightfully so. Things like the lingo and the hidden agendas, the misogynistic undertones and the big furry hats. I'm not surprised myself, but the problem is that people completely miss the positive aspects of this PUA stuff. Personally I think it's great that men are proactively doing something about this area of their lives, rather than settling for an unfulfilling relationship or moving through life in quiet desperation.

The other point that seems to go amiss is that you don't have to become a "pick up artist" in order to learn how to meet and attract women properly, though some men like to make that identity for themselves.

netwhizkid · 17-08-2009 03:37AM

Just be yourself and lay off the booze, amazingly unbeknown to alot of Irish people you can meet and talk to women in places other than bars and nightclubs also!:eek: I have a good insight into what women want and what to avoid doing. Doing PUA stuff is only doing some of the stuff women want, most people here haven't a clue how to treat a woman and wonder why the ol' grope and feelup after a few bacardis and vodkas don't get them to snu snu land.

PUA's a group of men with their heads screwed on and a bit of maturity.

Wibbs · 17-08-2009 11:06AM

Pete4779 wrote: »

there may be some sort of taboo in a highly colloquial society where "everyone needs to be put in their place and kept there" like Ireland.

Ever notice women's magazines? All of the covers are about how to attract a man, how to date, what to wear, what to say, what not to say, etc., etc., . No "loser" status affored to women there, despite huge "PUA" style material being published every day.

If it's okay for women, they why not men? And why not see if it can give you some of the skills that you didn't have the opportunity to pick up (no pun intended) earlier in life.

Re: being yourself: this is code for people who actually have nothing to offer you at all. It's an insult, especially if it comes from people who you may regard as friends. If it was good advice, it would have been working, but clearly it doesn't, so they give lousy advice.

Re: wait: wait for what? Some princess in shining armour to come along and sweep you off your feet?

Funny, even though a lot of the pickup stuff I find very dubious I would agree with a lot of that. I really agree with the part about "just be yourself". I have heard it so often trotted out here and in the rest of life as advice(usually with the best of intentions) but it's practically useless, if not utterly useless. If being yourself worked you wouldn't have an issue. If being yourself isn't working you really have only two choices; hope someone will come along who likes you being yourself, or build a better you for you. In the former case you may get lucky. I would say a large proportion of men(and women) rely on luck. Given 50% of the world consists of the opposite sex, it's hardly luck either. They then can't believe they got "lucky" and end up with a person not particularly good for them. They then think it's a good relationship. Well if you've nothing to compare it to....

Working on yourself is by far the best start. Everyone and I mean everyone has areas they should improve in their lives. Start there. If dipping into the PUA stuff is a kicking off point for you then good. I would only advise not getting to caught up in it. It seems to be easy to get caught up in it. I suppose that's understandable. If all your life you've had no luck with the opposite sex and then you find it's a helluva lot easier than you thought(and it is), the tendency is to think this stuff is more than it is. Too much focus on any one thing is rarely good for a person IMHO.

LegacyUser · 17-08-2009 07:36PM

OP here.
Thanks for the advice. Think I'm going to give it a shot and see what happens. I can only gain from it as I've nothing to lose from trying it out.

scanlas · 17-08-2009 08:11PM

Unregistered wrote: »

OP here.
Thanks for the advice. Think I'm going to give it a shot and see what happens. I can only gain from it as I've nothing to lose from trying it out.

Hi OP, I'll give you a list of some of the PUAs I find to give the best non bullsh$t advice. There are some out there you should definitely steer clear of.

www.sinnsofattraction.blogspot.com

www.entropypua.com/blog

www.rsdnation.com

www.betheseducer.com (Captain Jack)

SNIP

SNIP

www.alexattitude.com

If you're starting off don't worry about results, just get out there and get lots of approaches under your belt. Also try not to overload your head with too much technical stuff at once, it will make things worse and make you anxious. You are going to make a balls of lots of approaches, don't worry about it, it's a learning experience.

PK2008 · 17-08-2009 09:08PM

The main problem I have with this is the manipulated perception of being a "loser" if you cannot attract and have sex with women, this is a falsehood and is a construction of low self esteem perpetuated by people fleeing from their supposed "loser" pasts. Everything is built on that assumed premise, and is never questioned, so ultimately all you will ever achieve is "having sex". While that might sound good, what you are doing is creating a task/reward cycle- sex being the task and reward being liberation from low self esteem ie as you increase the task you increase the reward.

The problem here is your providing validation for personality behavioural changes in your own psyche which you will assume will turn you from a "loser" to a "winner". The fact that you view life as "winners and loser" plays on a very deep seated fear- you dont want to be a loser so you link all your percieved shortcomings and emotional issues as failings and you you identify what winners have- one of those things you assume is "success with women". Life becomes a technical game of tactics, plays and "achievements" the assumption being that each achievement (bedding a woman) somehow converts to a level of pyscholgocial liberation, which can be 'measured' by an increase in self confidence. The human psyche does not work on the same principles as business theory; amount of sex does not = amount of confidence, amount of confidenece does not equal amount of fulfillment, amount of fulfillment does not equal "Winner" or "loser".

The problem is that external success, whether it is financial, career, or relationships are always just a band aid for low self esteem. No amount of money or women will help you overcome this. You will be projecting an image, women will be falling for that image- but when the women leave and your looking at yourself in the mirror you'll be further repressing, isolating,marginalising and resenting your own personality based on the reinforcement of the validation based on "having sex means I am a winner". Even those who manage to make themselves believe they are happier with the mask they have constructed for themselves find they revile "the person they used to be". The danger being that they truly beleive they have overcome emotional issues based on the "proof" that they are having more sex. The human personality is a very complex thing and those who repress their true personalities tend to have the most problems even if they see short term "success" in the form of the acquisition and/or consumption of externalities.

At some point the party that is life will draw to a close for us all- if you measure your life by the amount of sex you had then yeh, this cycle of false validation is for you, if you measure yourself by the level of intellectual and emotional liberation/development you achieve then it is not- simply because any lifestyle which expounds a psychological equation between sexual encounters and mental health is false.

As I said the most you will ever achieve from this is "having sex" if you devote your life to it then all you will achieve in life is "having sex". Sex is great but it isnt a "holy grail" that solves emotional issues- you will remain emotionally repressed (if not physically) if you allow a physical urge to control how you live your life.

EDIT: On a personal level I find the mainpulation by so called "guru's" of vulnerable men with low self esteem under the guise of "help and development" as a predatory techinique to further validate their own behaviour and the dehumanisation of women sinister, both I find disturbing

Wibbs · 17-08-2009 09:24PM

Scanlas, while your advice is welcome, I've removed the more overt of these hard sell sites. The "Change your life, buy now, one time offer!!!(until next time)" type sites. If they want to advertise then let them pay for it like everyone else, but not in PI/RI.

Potentially vulnerable people shouldn't have to faced with that. The OP should be hearing from you and others, not just linkage to commercial sites. If you have an issue with this please take it to PM or helpdesk. Cheers.

kjl · 17-08-2009 09:28PM

I don't think you need to feel like a loser for using PUA advice.

I think it generally only works because it gets guys talking to women.

If you feel insecure, why not start going to the gym, give up the booze and try and make yourself a little fitter and more appealing.

LegacyUser · 17-08-2009 09:54PM

OP!!

Don't do it!

before you go into the "scene", download the barry kirkey radio show. he has exposed all of these PUAs, he was a major character in The Game and lived with them all. It's mostly a scam as he has revealed. go to his website, I'm not sure if im allowed to post it, www.revolution31.com/blog

Zaph · 17-08-2009 10:16PM

dontdoitop wrote: »

OP!!

Don't do it!

before you go into the "scene", download the barry kirkey radio show. he has exposed all of these PUAs, he was a major character in The Game and lived with them all. It's mostly a scam as he has revealed. go to his website, I'm not sure if im allowed to post it, www.revolution31.com/blog

There's no harm in seeing both sides of the scene, but could you be a bit more precise as to where on his website this can be found?

scanlas · 17-08-2009 11:09PM

dontdoitop wrote: »

OP!!

Don't do it!

before you go into the "scene", download the barry kirkey radio show. he has exposed all of these PUAs, he was a major character in The Game and lived with them all. It's mostly a scam as he has revealed. go to his website, I'm not sure if im allowed to post it, www.revolution31.com/blog

I think the only company he said was a scam was RSD, but he seems to be out of touch with them, they've evolved a lot over the last five years. If he exposed all of these PUAs why does he have PUAs regularly on his show including Mehow and Sinn once every month, that doesn't make much sense.

He mainly makes fun of them, not call them a scam.

wylo · 17-08-2009 11:33PM

the fact of the matter is , if you get really good at it you will pulling all around you. What is loserish about that ive no idea.

I have seen this stuff work first hand. Women may deny it works but it really really does. You dont need to learn off fake stories or magic tricks, its just another means of self improvement.

However as another poster pointed out here, while you are doing this you should also be concentrating on your own inner self confidence and happiness.

To be honest, with my luck as of late im considering reading up on it too.:D

SLUSK · 17-08-2009 11:49PM

A bottle of JD and a prostitute is a better investment.

LegacyUser · 17-08-2009 11:55PM

PK2008 wrote: »

The main problem I have with this is the manipulated perception of being a "loser" if you cannot attract and have sex with women, this is a falsehood and is a construction of low self esteem perpetuated by people fleeing from their supposed "loser" pasts. Everything is built on that assumed premise, and is never questioned, so ultimately all you will ever achieve is "having sex". While that might sound good, what you are doing is creating a task/reward cycle- sex being the task and reward being liberation from low self esteem ie as you increase the task you increase the reward.

The problem here is your providing validation for personality behavioural changes in your own psyche which you will assume will turn you from a "loser" to a "winner". The fact that you view life as "winners and loser" plays on a very deep seated fear- you dont want to be a loser so you link all your percieved shortcomings and emotional issues as failings and you you identify what winners have- one of those things you assume is "success with women". Life becomes a technical game of tactics, plays and "achievements" the assumption being that each achievement (bedding a woman) somehow converts to a level of pyscholgocial liberation, which can be 'measured' by an increase in self confidence. The human psyche does not work on the same principles as business theory; amount of sex does not = amount of confidence, amount of confidenece does not equal amount of fulfillment, amount of fulfillment does not equal "Winner" or "loser".

The problem is that external success, whether it is financial, career, or relationships are always just a band aid for low self esteem. No amount of money or women will help you overcome this. You will be projecting an image, women will be falling for that image- but when the women leave and your looking at yourself in the mirror you'll be further repressing, isolating,marginalising and resenting your own personality based on the reinforcement of the validation based on "having sex means I am a winner". Even those who manage to make themselves believe they are happier with the mask they have constructed for themselves find they revile "the person they used to be". The danger being that they truly beleive they have overcome emotional issues based on the "proof" that they are having more sex. The human personality is a very complex thing and those who repress their true personalities tend to have the most problems even if they see short term "success" in the form of the acquisition and/or consumption of externalities.

At some point the party that is life will draw to a close for us all- if you measure your life by the amount of sex you had then yeh, this cycle of false validation is for you, if you measure yourself by the level of intellectual and emotional liberation/development you achieve then it is not- simply because any lifestyle which expounds a psychological equation between sexual encounters and mental health is false.

As I said the most you will ever achieve from this is "having sex" if you devote your life to it then all you will achieve in life is "having sex". Sex is great but it isnt a "holy grail" that solves emotional issues- you will remain emotionally repressed (if not physically) if you allow a physical urge to control how you live your life.

EDIT: On a personal level I find the mainpulation by so called "guru's" of vulnerable men with low self esteem under the guise of "help and development" as a predatory techinique to further validate their own behaviour and the dehumanisation of women sinister, both I find disturbing

Fantastic post.

I find the whole PUA thing unsettling. Not because of what it is in and of itself (hell I've even taken some of the big teachings on board myself; like I would never offer to buy a girl I fancied a drink now whereas in the past I might), but because I think the fact that it is becoming so big is a sign of the sickness of western culture. That might seem a bit heavy but maybe some of you understand what i mean ?

Zaph · 18-08-2009 12:00AM

SLUSK wrote: »

A bottle of JD and a prostitute is a better investment.

SLUSK, I suggest you read the part of the charter dealing with unhelpful and off-topic posts before posting in PI again.

Larianne · 18-08-2009 12:04AM

My friend bought The Game and told me about the different 'missions' you have to do. It seemed to me it was about gaining confidence, approaching people and listening/observing them.

One of the 'missions' was to speak to a certain number of random people and remember their eye colour - a good way of making you look into someone's eyes as you speak to them, which a lot of people lacking in confidence (or maybe people in general?) don't do. It allows the person you are speaking to see you are interested in them.

I can't remember other things, oh, one was ringing up random people and asking them to recommend a film to watch - so getting people to listen to you and persuade them to help you.

I think if you aren't good in social situations it can be good. I don't know about the so-called bad side to PUA as the book and missions fell to the wayside for some reason but I had fun doing the few missions I was given.

LegacyUser · 18-08-2009 12:17AM

the main thing about the "seduction community" is the idiots who want to be seen as "gurus" so they can make loads of money. they teach you to say "routines" to women. thats ridiculous, how about being normal and having a normal conversation?

Barry Kirkey has exposed most of them. He ripped on Mehow for a long time after mehow said, "I can steal any girlfriend in 13 minutes". Mehow started teaching seduction after he had sex with one girl in his life. what does that tell you about him? I believe Barry has him on as an inside joke to the listeners. Sinn is decent but has gone commercial and also teaches routines routines routines. I saw a guy in copper face jacks doing sinns "the rings routine" on girls, seriously, get a life!

Don't even get me started on the RSD crowd. They are the worst joke of all.

In ireland there is a newly formed company thats even worse. check out one of their videos... <snip>

Are you telling me that is what you want to be like? The guy refers to women as "females" multiple times. How about calling them women? They are actually people, not a scientific experiment. He doesn't have the first clue what he is talking about, it's actually hilarious.

I would love to see the actual success that these "PUAs" actually have. It's a scam OP, they are all out to make money. Barry kirkey has exposed Neil Strauss even. There are so many parts of The Game that didn't even happen according to barry. I would focus on actually improving MYSELF OP. Look into becoming a better person. I would advise the OP against going to any of them.

Here is a link to an article on <snip>

"Overview
The seduction community was once an underground society of desperate men looking for the techniques, tactics and ploys to bed the women of their dreams. All types of men, using aliases and online pseudonyms, would secretly meet up, using the Internet as their rendezvous, to unleash a plethora of madness on women in bars, clubs and lounges all over the world. A few books and television shows later, it’s almost become as mainstream as the nightly news. Different pick-up companies are springing up all over the place, promising desperate men of all ages that their techniques are guaranteed to work. The larger and more prominent companies are charging thousands of dollars for workshops and raking in millions, while the smaller companies are doing very well for themselves, financially. One must ask, is it all bull****? The answer is…a resounding ‘YES’. Now, if you’re reading this book, then you fall into one of four categories:
1. A “newbie”, who just discovered the seduction community.
2. Unsuccessful with women, who is confused and looking for answers.
3. Successful with women, who knows the truth.
4. A guru/instructor, worried that others are finding the truth.
For the men who fall into categories one and two, this is a great read for you. It gives you the wake up call that you finally need, saves you countless hours of frustration, and saves you thousands of hard-earned dollars. For those in category three, you will agree with the content presented and information revealed because you are good with women, know why you’re good with women, and know what the seduction community is really about. And for the gurus and instructors in category four, well, you WILL be exposed.
You must first understand how something is structured and what its’ purpose is if you ultimately wish to understand what’s truly going on. The wool has been pulled over too many men’s eyes in the seduction community and this book takes that away. It covers a variety of topics and gives you the non-biased, straight forward type of information that any potential consumer should know. While a few people have tried to create a type of “consumer protection” when it comes to the seduction community, this book is the ultimate source. There is way too much exaggeration, hype and “false positivity” being promoted by these seduction gurus and companies for their own benefit. It is time for a change and a more realistic perspective to help balance things out.
Ever wonder why so many men fail with women after they enter the seduction community? That’s because it is designed for you to fail! Most information in the seduction community can’t help you one bit and is intended to promote certain misleading and deceiving ideas in order to leave you a little bit more confused. The same reason why men pay thousands of dollars to “self-professed” seduction gurus is the same reason why they’re not good with women. Two important questions that must be answered are “Do seduction gurus and companies have the consumer’s best interest in mind?” and “Can men actually get better with women by paying these seduction gurus and companies thousands of dollars?” No. "

Have a watch of this vid on seductioncommunityexposed youtube channel OP
<snip>

alleviate · 18-08-2009 12:41AM

One rather important point that fell off this thread:

"The Community" isnt a community. Its a forum of clients.

And almost all of them are following one brand.

everyone else has a name for this. Business.

Love Systems is a company, Strauss is a professional author, and everyone who goes to the community ends up buying into mystery method.

And besides, most things in that particular product are a load of s&%$ anyway.

My advice: just find some guys who are good with girls. Be honest and just tell them your situation. Think of what you can give them in exchange, why they should help you. And whatever you learn, repeat it over and over.

PK2008 · 18-08-2009 01:51AM

Thinking_aloud wrote: »

Fantastic post.

I find the whole PUA thing unsettling. Not because of what it is in and of itself (hell I've even taken some of the big teachings on board myself; like I would never offer to buy a girl I fancied a drink now whereas in the past I might), but because I think the fact that it is becoming so big is a sign of the sickness of western culture. That might seem a bit heavy but maybe some of you understand what i mean ?

I think men such as "pick up artists" are over-emphasing the significance of sex by linking it to their (and others) very self worth. Sex is great, casual sex is great but to self-destruct your own personality and try to replace it with a manufactured one just so you can have sex clearly shows a deeper emotional problem- an exageratted and possibly obsessive view of sex linked to low self esteem. Lack of sex may be a symptom of low self esteem but having sex will not resolve it. The danger here is that the underlying issue is never resolved in the belief that more and more sex will prove to the indiviudal defintively that they are not a "loser" (loser being a highly subjective term anyway, which others are thrusting onto vulnerable people in order to manipulate them). Impressionable young men, starting out on their journey of sexual discovery are being shown a false, contrived image of a "successful man", then they are being told they dont match up in order to attack their self esteem and make them more compliant, then they are being shown how they can match up if they buy this product- its basically the male equivalent of womens image magazines, a crule manipulation of a person fears in order to promote conumtpion of a false solution to a manufactutered problem.

Sexual liberation has removed the taboo's surrounding casual sex however there has always been and always will be a number of people who are searching for love, self esteem, and validation through sex, which is often linked to emotional issues. While these PUA techniques may quote pyschology in order to try to attach some credibility, their philosophy's would never be taken seriously in the field of pyschological or emotional development- if anything they appear ultimately destructive to personal growth in that they provide diversion which traps the practitioner in a dead end cycle of false validation.

Sex is a temporary satisfaction of a physical urge, an urge that will come back tomorrow and the day after and so on. As physical beings we are basically the same as billions of others around this world but it is our personalities that are unique and irreplacable. To repress who you are just to have sex will ultimately be a far greater loss than the gain of a transient sexual experience.

Pete4779 · 18-08-2009 02:07AM

Thinking_aloud wrote: »

but because I think the fact that it is becoming so big is a sign of the sickness of western culture. That might seem a bit heavy but maybe some of you understand what i mean ?

If western culture stopped portraying white males as evil and degenerate it might be a start at a real solution. Sexual and attractive is gay or black or women if you watch western media; both represent easy targets for marketing. Once that has been "used up" like white males in the 60s-70s for money, expect media targetting to move like Japan which is simply a few generations ahead in development towards marketing with disturbing age groups, etc., .

Wibbs · 18-08-2009 11:14AM

alleviate wrote: »

One rather important point that fell off this thread:

"The Community" isnt a community. Its a forum of clients.

And almost all of them are following one brand.

everyone else has a name for this. Business.

Love Systems is a company, Strauss is a professional author, and everyone who goes to the community ends up buying into mystery method.

And besides, most things in that particular product are a load of s&%$ anyway.

Pretty much sums it up.

OP my personal take on this is that it is, or has become a scam. An attractive scam nonetheless for vulnerable men. Both socially and emotionally vulnerable. PK2008 has posted some good stuff and I agree, but I would say that if the aim of many of the guys attracted to this stuff was just to get laid, that would be like PK2008 wrote, pretty unhealthy. What I think is worse is that a lot of the guys targeted by the commercial end of this aren't looking to notch up their bedpost. They may feel socially awkward and lonely and just want to meet a woman and have a girlfriend. What they see other men have and they feel left out.

These "gurus" tell them "sign up to this, follow this system and you will get any woman you like". This is utter nonsense. George Clooney couldn't get any women he liked. Neither could Johnny Depp. I've a face like a bag of arses, but if a woman is truly in love with me, Peirce Brosnan may get a flirt, but that's it. It really doesn't matter who he is.

Of course like all of these new age scams("the secret" etc another one), if you do fail, it's because you didn't want it enough, you didn't do the system enough. Again utter nonsense. Here's a secret; with all the will in the world sometimes shít happens, or doesn't happen.

This stuff is obviously attractive to many men who may feel socially and romantically isolated. They feel part of a community, a secret community with all the answers and positive feedback from other members of that community, nurtured by leaders of the community for their own ego and often financial gain. In many ways, it's one of the oldest tricks in the book, but the speed and shininess of the slick marketing guff on the internet makes it more efficient.

Now don't get me wrong, yes there are some valid points they make, but most of them are pretty obvious if you think about it. Women as a general rule prefer socially comfortable, confident, emotionally stable and flexible, ambitious men. They also like men they find physically attractive. Now a man with the personality outlined above will trump a guy who is just a looker with nothing else to offer(big surprise pretty much what men go for too). In this IMHO women are more flexible than men for the most part, so by all means aim for that. But and it's a big but, aim for that, for you, not for women or the world at large.

Improve yourself for yourself. You dont need to go mad with your credit card signing up to the next big thing to do it either. Self improvement of the human condition is a very old pursuit. Some of the greatest minds in history put their shoulders to the task. Just because the TV Oprah backed gurus have soured the milk, doesn't mean the aim is wrong.

If you are socially uncomfortable, start there. If you feel you have an actual social phobia then maybe seek professional counseling to help get through that. Try to increase your social group. The more people you meet, the more women you will meet too and the more comfortable you will become and the more chances you will have of meeting another person right for you.

If you feel your physical appearance is hampering your efforts, then something as simple as a haircut and a new wardrobe can do wonders. Join a gym. This will tone you up, have a social aspect and give you more energy to live life. If your pursuits are more of an intellectual bent, well then join a club or group of likeminded people. Try and do this in the real world, rather than purely online.

Basically aim to improve your life and people will want to share that journey with you and you will meet women who will want to share a romantic life with you. IMHO if you start along that path, then the only way is forward.

My 2 cents anyway and such as it is it was free.

prinz · 18-08-2009 11:31AM

The whole pick up thing is a booming industry. Business. Money Money Money. You're not going to learn anything that you couldn't get advice on right here on boards anyway,

What Wibbs and PK2008 said pretty much outlined everything I'd think myself. "Picking up" isn't the be all and end all either. A friend of mine is great at picking girls up but completely and utterly useless at keeping them.

scanlas · 18-08-2009 11:47AM

Hey OP,

I have some very good ebooks which I found very useful, if you're not sure about this stuff pm me and I'll send them to you for free, that way you can decide for yourself if you find it helpful, if not, delete them.

LegacyUser · 18-08-2009 01:42PM

I personally dislike pUa material .I've studied it for psychology and it is awful stuff , Routines are horrible but if you were to browse over it and just take it at face value it would improve your chances.

I've a friend who is amazing at picking up girls uses none of that stuff it's natural to him.The fact is if you go into a pub /nightclub be mindful of all the girls that are checking you out and approach them and you shouldn't need this stuff.

To think that the whole dynamics of man/woman relationships can be summarised by formula's and scripts iand books s ridiculous to say at the least.

The thing is when you talk to agirl for 10 mins or more ,the only thing you have to watch out for is that you dont f**k it up. The best thing you can do is to make yourself a better man ,both physically and mentally.

panda100 · 18-08-2009 01:56PM

I read an article in The Irish Times a few months ago about dating boot camps for men being held in Dublin. The company is called Karma communications. Wish they had these sort of camps for women!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/magazine/2009/0627/1224249272794.html

Wibbs · 18-08-2009 02:13PM

And it's mostly guff, like the vast majority of this stuff. As I said it's attractive guff, particularly to the target market.

That "guru"(like many of them) gets women simply because he's good looking, a noted sports type and confident. Just standing there he's going to have more success with women. Fact. It's like the equivalent of some good looking starlet running classes to help plain women pick up men. Yes she may help with dressing to accentuate and to help confidence, but that's your lot. If she sold an idea that thses same women would get the same amount of attention by following her system, most would laugh at her.

These PUA types go on about social value a lot and projecting same. Someone like him has it in spades. He can screw up and be daft and still get results. Much like the starlet type. Now doubtless there'll be cries from those who buy into this that there exists PUA experts who aren't good looking, or short, or fat, or bald, or whatever your particular worry is as a man. Of course there are. As I said before, women are generally more flexible when it comes to what they find attractive in a man. Even so I guarantee those short fat ugly guys have social power in other areas. Successful in business for one. Well known on the social circuit for another. Even being regarded as PUA gurus brings some kudos, which can appeal to the frankly more daft end of younger women(thankfully small in number and they grow out of it). This doesn't help the ordinary guy trying to feel his own path in life, who may get suckered into this.

I prefer to look at the objective truth in stuff like this(admittedly as I see it) and the objective truth is this stuff is pretty obvious and doesn't need some self styled guru to teach you that obvious stuff. At least he's not charging much for this "info". When you read some of the links that have been posted to this stuff and you see figures like 2000 and 3000 euros to hang out in a room with others looking for answers and finding few, except falling more and more into this mindset, frankly it worries me.

Emme · 18-08-2009 03:25PM

panda100 wrote: »

I read an article in The Irish Times a few months ago about dating boot camps for men being held in Dublin. The company is called Karma communications. Wish they had these sort of camps for women!

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/magazine/2009/0627/1224249272794.html

The two guys who run this were on the Tubridy Show on Monday. They sounded normal enough and were encouraging guys to get out there and socialise. They weren't encouraging pick-ups but they coach guys on communication skills and self-confidence. That doesn't make you a loser, it's just that in Ireland we seem to have problems approaching the opposite sex. I wouldn't advise you to use the American PUA approach but Karma communications might be able to help you. I wish there was something similar for Irish women because traditionally we're not supposed to approach guys so it's even harder for us.

Good luck.

LegacyUser · 18-08-2009 03:57PM

Unregistered wrote: »

I personally dislike pUa material .I've studied it for psychology and it is awful stuff , Routines are horrible but if you were to browse over it and just take it at face value it would improve your chances.

I've a friend who is amazing at picking up girls uses none of that stuff it's natural to him.The fact is if you go into a pub /nightclub be mindful of all the girls that are checking you out and approach them and you shouldn't need this stuff.

To think that the whole dynamics of man/woman relationships can be summarised by formula's and scripts iand books s ridiculous to say at the least.

The thing is when you talk to agirl for 10 mins or more ,the only thing you have to watch out for is that you dont f**k it up. The best thing you can do is to make yourself a better man ,both physically and mentally.

Such a generalization, many companies don't even teach routines or the type of stuff that is written about in the media. The companies who do teach routines mainly use them as training wheels to help you get the ball rolling. There is a lot of misinformation about this topic.

PUA

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