The Orange Lodges

Foxhound38 · 11-08-2009 01:55PM #1

A simple and serious question:

Considering the philosophical hostility of the Orange Order towards our little Republic, and its past of aggression towards the catholic minority in the North (which does nothing to excuse the violence of sections of the nationalist community in return), should they be allowed to operate South of the border?

Rabies · 11-08-2009 01:58PM

Moved

Mods, if this isn't the right place can you push it along.
Thanks

Shacklebolt · 11-08-2009 02:05PM

Of course they should be allowed to operate here. If we're going to start banning organisations with unpopular opinions where do we stop?

g5fd6ow0hseima · 11-08-2009 02:07PM

Let them operate, but ignore them and make sure to do so.

Hagar · 11-08-2009 02:10PM

Of course they should be allowed have their Lodges in the Republic. A lot of good men died winning freedom for this country and they won enough of it to share with everybody.

Fratton Fred · 11-08-2009 02:23PM

what's the old saying "i do not agree with what you say, but i defend your right to say it"

or something like that.

besides, they would love it if orange lodges were banned, it would only help to prove a (spurious) point for them.

Foxhound38 · 11-08-2009 02:25PM

Shacklebolt wrote: »

Of course they should be allowed to operate here. If we're going to start banning organisations with unpopular opinions where do we stop?

It's not like it would be the only such case - the IRA is a proscribed organization is it not. Now I know there is a stated difference in purpose, and I understand that but is it not also true that the OL's have a past of provocation to say the very least of some of its members? Banning could be useful until they can agree to either stop preaching open hatred towards our country, or stop operating in our country. I certainly don't think they should be getting even a cent off the taxpayer (I read somewhere that they recieve funds as a cultural organization).

Personally, I am not sure yet. On the one hand I find their organization as reprehensible as any Dissident Republican group. I cringe everytime they feign outrage at the reaction from the nationalist community when they try to have their triumphalist march through their areas - something they only do to rub it in. On the other hand, taking action against anyone (even those who hate us) could lead to a very slippery slope, and isn't the very premise of a republic as a system of Government to allow for the existence of different strokes for different folks. It's a difficult question

prinz · 11-08-2009 02:28PM

Hostility towards the Republic?

. From what I see there are lodges operating in a number of border counties on the Republic side and they get on just fine, having parades and their bands and what not. Haven't heard of any trouble or of gardaí etc. being murdered by Orangemen in this country. IIRC wasn't the Orange Order founded in Dublin to begin with?

prinz · 11-08-2009 02:33PM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Banning could be useful until they can agree to either stop preaching open hatred towards our country, or stop operating in our country.

Could you provide any source for this coming from lodges in the Republic? I've heard from a number of people from Donegal and Cavan that they have no problems whatsoever from the lodges or their members and they are just as happy and contentedly members of the community in their Republic as anyone else. The locals go out to watch the march and have a great day.

By the way there is nothing to say you have more of a claim on the Republic of Ireland as any member of an Orange lodge in the Republic has.

Can'tseeme · 11-08-2009 02:47PM

I ain't no fan of the OO but they have as much right to practise in Ireland as any other organisation. As far as I'm aware these parades pass off with no trouble whatsoever. As the majority do in the north also. As regards the contentious parades, like in North Belfast. I think the Order will have to enter dialogue with the residents to discuss how they conduct themselves going through the area, how many go down for the parades, etc. They could do alot more to improve community relations.

Shan75 · 11-08-2009 03:41PM

Foxhound38 wrote: »

A simple and serious question:

Considering the philosophical hostility of the Orange Order towards our little Republic, and its past of aggression towards the catholic minority in the North (which does nothing to excuse the violence of sections of the nationalist community in return), should they be allowed to operate South of the border?

They should be allowed to operate in the Republic unless they actually do something here which is a threat to our society and people.As of yet I'm not aware of any threat they pose.I don't think the Orange Lodges currently operating in the Republic have caused any problems for anybody here and the marches held are peaceful affairs.

JonathanAnon · 11-08-2009 04:02PM

From their actions up the north, it is clear that they are a petty bunch of children. They do not have any power to promote sectarians acts, so they are no threat. Let them have their houses if it keeps them out of other public places where normal people might have to listen to them.

ardmacha · 11-08-2009 06:16PM

They are an unpleasant bunch of people who would be happy to have the entire country as a colony. But various unpleasant political groups exist, their existence is right and proper in a democracy, although they should not be given a false respectability.

K-9 · 11-08-2009 06:18PM

prinz wrote: »

Could you provide any source for this coming from lodges in the Republic? I've heard from a number of people from Donegal and Cavan that they have no problems whatsoever from the lodges or their members and they are just as happy and contentedly members of the community in their Republic as anyone else. The locals go out to watch the march and have a great day.

By the way there is nothing to say you have more of a claim on the Republic of Ireland as any member of an Orange lodge in the Republic has.

They march where I'm from. No bothers whatsoever from them.

gurramok · 11-08-2009 06:24PM

I'd class them as a subversive organisation that wants the dismantling of the Irish state.

Let them march where they are welcomed despite their offensive views. If the local population do not want any of their parades in the locality be it Ballymun or Ballybrit, it does not give the OO the right to hold the country to ransom through the threat of violence based on their past deeds. Its good to talk.

Terrontress · 11-08-2009 06:27PM

They are more or less redundant both sides of the border. A bunch of old men with outmoded opinions. To ban them would flatter them in terms of their influence and possibly driving them underground might make them more attractive to subversives.

dlofnep · 11-08-2009 06:29PM

Let them march - If we want an all-inclusive united Ireland (which I do) - I think we should try to make everyone welcome. I can't say I'm a fan of the orange order, but they can march their merry legs off if they want, so long as they don't harm anyone.

prinz · 11-08-2009 06:34PM

gurramok wrote: »

I'd class them as a subversive organisation that wants the dismantling of the Irish state.
Let them march where they are welcomed despite their offensive views. If the local population do not want any of their parades in the locality be it Ballymun or Ballybrit, it does not give the OO the right to hold the country to ransom through the threat of violence based on their past deeds. Its good to talk.

Again, when was the Orange Order involved in killing servants of this state? When has an Orangeman in the Republic declared anything remotely subversive or treasonous about this state? When have they threatened violence on anyone in this country?

gurramok · 11-08-2009 06:42PM

prinz wrote: »

Again, when was the Orange Order involved in killing servants of this state?

A few members have been found wanting in Loyalist organisations over the years. If I had lists to RUC records of convicted members, i'd show you.

When has an Orangeman in the Republic declared anything remotely subversive or treasonous about this state?

They want the dismantling of the Irish state through joining the Union with Britain. That is subversion.

I do not remember them pledging allegiance to ROI nor embracing the Irish flag, do you?

When have they threatened violence on anyone in this country?

They have threatened violence with Billy Wright at Drumcree, Co. Armagh through force of numbers on many an occasion in the late 90's.

dlofnep · 11-08-2009 06:49PM

prinz wrote: »

Again, when was the Orange Order involved in killing servants of this state? When has an Orangeman in the Republic declared anything remotely subversive or treasonous about this state? When have they threatened violence on anyone in this country?

Let's be a little more honest here. The Orange Order is a sectarian organisation. It requires from the get-go that you are a protestant to become a member and you can be expelled for going to a Catholic ceremony. You only have to look at the events of Garvaghy Road to see that the OO are not squeaky clean.

oscarBravo · 11-08-2009 06:50PM

gurramok wrote: »

They want the dismantling of the Irish state through joining the Union with Britain.

And Republicans want to dismantle the United Kingdom. It's only subversive when they threaten to achieve it through violence.

I do not remember them pledging allegiance to ROI nor embracing the Irish flag, do you?

And Republicans don't embrace the Union Jack.

They're an organisation with goals you disagree with. Big deal.

prinz · 11-08-2009 06:50PM

gurramok wrote: »

A few members have been found wanting in Loyalist organisations over the years.
They want the dismantling of the Irish state through joining the Union with Britain. That is subversion.

(a) So you avoided the question. When has a servant of this State been killed by Orangemen in lodges in the Republic? (b) They want nothing of the sort.

gurramok wrote: »

I do not remember them pledging allegiance to ROI nor embracing the Irish flag, do you?

Most of the Orangemen in this country are Irish citizens. As Irish as any of the rest of us. They don't go around bleating on about Union with the UK and violence etc. So many illinformed preconceptions.

gurramok wrote: »

They have threatened violence with Billy Wright at Drumcree, Co. Armagh through force of numbers on many an occasion in the late 90's.

:pac: Perhaps you should go to one of the parades in this country. Group of old farmers eating sponge cake and drinking earl grey tea talking about blight on their spuds.

dlofnep · 11-08-2009 06:51PM

OB makes a fair enough point.

Foxhound38 · 11-08-2009 06:52PM

gurramok wrote: »

I'd class them as a subversive organisation that wants the dismantling of the Irish state.

Let them march where they are welcomed despite their offensive views. If the local population do not want any of their parades in the locality be it Ballymun or Ballybrit, it does not give the OO the right to hold the country to ransom through the threat of violence based on their past deeds. Its good to talk.

A mature opinion, I agree. As long as the community tolerates them there I guess they are no problem. I do object however, to them recieving money from the taxpayer as a "cultural organization". Surely there are less sectarian organizations more deserving of the money?

prinz · 11-08-2009 06:53PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Let's be a little more honest here. The Orange Order is a sectarian organisation. It requires from the get-go that you are a protestant to become a member and you can be expelled for going to a Catholic ceremony. You only have to look at the events of Garvaghy Road to see that the OO are not squeaky clean.

The OP was particularly about OO Lodges in the Republic, and I have yet to hear / see / know of any trouble emanating from an Orange Lodge in this country. I never said they were squeaky clean or non sectarian. More buffoonery tbh as far as I can tell. Lots of bluster and not much substance.

dlofnep · 11-08-2009 06:56PM

prinz wrote: »

The OP was particularly about OO Lodges in the Republic, and I have yet to hear / see / know of any trouble emanating from an Orange Lodge in this country. I never said they were squeaky clean or non sectarian. More buffoonery tbh as far as I can tell. Lots of bluster and not much substance.

As I've already stated, I have no problem with them having marches here so long as it's respectful and peaceful. I'm more than happy to welcome them as part of Ireland. So long as you recognise that the order is not squeaky clean and is sectarian by nature - then all is well.

gurramok · 11-08-2009 07:03PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

And Republicans want to dismantle the United Kingdom. It's only subversive when they threaten to achieve it through violence. And Republicans don't embrace the Union Jack.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subversive

from dictionary wrote:

tending to subvert or advocating subversion, esp. in an attempt to overthrow or cause the destruction of an established or legally constituted government.
Intended or serving to subvert, especially intended to overthrow or undermine an established government: "Sex and creativity are often seen by dictators as subversive activities"

Subversion is not only through violence you know. The OO do not embrace the Irish state by using a foreign flag which they have allegiance to.

oscarbravo wrote:

They're an organisation with goals you disagree with. Big deal.

So? Do you disagree with them too?

prinz wrote: »

(a) So you avoided the question. When has a servant of this State been killed by Orangemen in lodges in the Republic? (b) They want nothing of the sort.

I do not know. Do you?

prinz wrote:

Most of the Orangemen in this country are Irish citizens. As Irish as any of the rest of us. They don't go around bleating on about Union with the UK and violence etc. So many illinformed preconceptions.

Huh? They did threaten violence in the North. Also their supporters have clashed with the RUC/PSNI over the years through violence.

They do not embrace the Irish state and have allegiance to a foreign country

prinz wrote:

:pac: Perhaps you should go to one of the parades in this country.

I'd be frightened to attend one of their parades. I've heard songs like 'up to our knees in Fenian blood', that to me is they would want me buried six feet under.

prinz wrote:

Group of old farmers eating sponge cake and drinking earl grey tea talking about blight on their spuds.

How do you know, have you been at one? Perhaps you are a member?

FlutterinBantam · 11-08-2009 07:11PM

dlofnep wrote: »

As I've already stated, I have no problem with them having marches here so long as it's respectful and peaceful. I'm more than happy to welcome them as part of Ireland. So long as you recognise that the order is not squeaky clean and is sectarian by nature - then all is well.

I would suggest sir that their marches are often hijacked by republican sympathisers with an agenda to disrupt an orderly march and cause trouble.

oscarBravo · 11-08-2009 07:11PM

gurramok wrote: »

Subversion is not only through violence you know.

So your problem with them is that they want to work towards a change in the legal status of part of this island?

The OO do not embrace the Irish state by using a foreign flag which they have allegiance to.

Your problem is with people who live in a state having allegiance to the flag of a different state?

Can you see where I'm going with this?

So? Do you disagree with them too?

I don't want the Republic of Ireland to be a part of the UK. I don't particularly care whether Northern Ireland is in the UK or the republic, as long as it's achieved peacefully.

I don't care how other people feel about these things, as long as they're not prepared to hurt others to achieve their goals.

prinz · 11-08-2009 07:13PM

gurramok wrote: »

Huh? They did threaten violence in the North. Also their supporters have clashed with the RUC/PSNI over the years through violence.

We're talking about lodges in the Republic of Ireland.

gurramok wrote: »

I'd be frightened to attend one of their parades. I've heard songs like 'up to our knees in Fenian blood', that to me is they would want me buried six feet under.How do you know, have you been at one? Perhaps you are a member?

LOL.:pac:.There are parades in this country you know? Ones that pass off peacefully and no one gives a crap about? I know because I have friends in Donegal and there are parades up there every summer too. The only difference nobody takes any notice and they do their own thing for a few tunes and away they go again. No harm done. Trouble and attention only comes when some trouble makers disrupt it instead of ignoring it.

dlofnep · 11-08-2009 07:15PM

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I would suggest sir that their marches are often hijacked by republican sympathisers with an agenda to disrupt an orderly march and cause trouble.

I reject your suggestion and put forth that many members (but not all) of the Orange Order are troublesome loyalists, which was evident on a number of occasions during the Drumcree troubles and that this is one of the reasons for the upstart of the violence. I do hope that that is ok with you.

The Orange Lodges

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