The Orange Lodges

Foxhound38

A simple and serious question:

Considering the philosophical hostility of the Orange Order towards our little Republic, and its past of aggression towards the catholic minority in the North (which does nothing to excuse the violence of sections of the nationalist community in return), should they be allowed to operate South of the border?

Rabies

Moved

Mods, if this isn't the right place can you push it along.
Thanks

Shacklebolt

Of course they should be allowed to operate here. If we're going to start banning organisations with unpopular opinions where do we stop?

g5fd6ow0hseima

Let them operate, but ignore them and make sure to do so.

Hagar

Of course they should be allowed have their Lodges in the Republic. A lot of good men died winning freedom for this country and they won enough of it to share with everybody.

Fratton Fred

what's the old saying "i do not agree with what you say, but i defend your right to say it"

or something like that.

besides, they would love it if orange lodges were banned, it would only help to prove a (spurious) point for them.

Foxhound38

Shacklebolt wrote: »

Of course they should be allowed to operate here. If we're going to start banning organisations with unpopular opinions where do we stop?

It's not like it would be the only such case - the IRA is a proscribed organization is it not. Now I know there is a stated difference in purpose, and I understand that but is it not also true that the OL's have a past of provocation to say the very least of some of its members? Banning could be useful until they can agree to either stop preaching open hatred towards our country, or stop operating in our country. I certainly don't think they should be getting even a cent off the taxpayer (I read somewhere that they recieve funds as a cultural organization).

Personally, I am not sure yet. On the one hand I find their organization as reprehensible as any Dissident Republican group. I cringe everytime they feign outrage at the reaction from the nationalist community when they try to have their triumphalist march through their areas - something they only do to rub it in. On the other hand, taking action against anyone (even those who hate us) could lead to a very slippery slope, and isn't the very premise of a republic as a system of Government to allow for the existence of different strokes for different folks. It's a difficult question

prinz

Hostility towards the Republic? . From what I see there are lodges operating in a number of border counties on the Republic side and they get on just fine, having parades and their bands and what not. Haven't heard of any trouble or of gardaí etc. being murdered by Orangemen in this country. IIRC wasn't the Orange Order founded in Dublin to begin with?

prinz

Foxhound38 wrote: »

Banning could be useful until they can agree to either stop preaching open hatred towards our country, or stop operating in our country.

Could you provide any source for this coming from lodges in the Republic? I've heard from a number of people from Donegal and Cavan that they have no problems whatsoever from the lodges or their members and they are just as happy and contentedly members of the community in their Republic as anyone else. The locals go out to watch the march and have a great day.

By the way there is nothing to say you have more of a claim on the Republic of Ireland as any member of an Orange lodge in the Republic has.

Can'tseeme

I ain't no fan of the OO but they have as much right to practise in Ireland as any other organisation. As far as I'm aware these parades pass off with no trouble whatsoever. As the majority do in the north also. As regards the contentious parades, like in North Belfast. I think the Order will have to enter dialogue with the residents to discuss how they conduct themselves going through the area, how many go down for the parades, etc. They could do alot more to improve community relations.

Shan75

Foxhound38 wrote: »

A simple and serious question:

Considering the philosophical hostility of the Orange Order towards our little Republic, and its past of aggression towards the catholic minority in the North (which does nothing to excuse the violence of sections of the nationalist community in return), should they be allowed to operate South of the border?

They should be allowed to operate in the Republic unless they actually do something here which is a threat to our society and people.As of yet I'm not aware of any threat they pose.I don't think the Orange Lodges currently operating in the Republic have caused any problems for anybody here and the marches held are peaceful affairs.

JonathanAnon

From their actions up the north, it is clear that they are a petty bunch of children. They do not have any power to promote sectarians acts, so they are no threat. Let them have their houses if it keeps them out of other public places where normal people might have to listen to them.

ardmacha

They are an unpleasant bunch of people who would be happy to have the entire country as a colony. But various unpleasant political groups exist, their existence is right and proper in a democracy, although they should not be given a false respectability.

K-9

prinz wrote: »

Could you provide any source for this coming from lodges in the Republic? I've heard from a number of people from Donegal and Cavan that they have no problems whatsoever from the lodges or their members and they are just as happy and contentedly members of the community in their Republic as anyone else. The locals go out to watch the march and have a great day.

By the way there is nothing to say you have more of a claim on the Republic of Ireland as any member of an Orange lodge in the Republic has.

They march where I'm from. No bothers whatsoever from them.

gurramok

I'd class them as a subversive organisation that wants the dismantling of the Irish state.

Let them march where they are welcomed despite their offensive views. If the local population do not want any of their parades in the locality be it Ballymun or Ballybrit, it does not give the OO the right to hold the country to ransom through the threat of violence based on their past deeds. Its good to talk.

Terrontress

They are more or less redundant both sides of the border. A bunch of old men with outmoded opinions. To ban them would flatter them in terms of their influence and possibly driving them underground might make them more attractive to subversives.

dlofnep

Let them march - If we want an all-inclusive united Ireland (which I do) - I think we should try to make everyone welcome. I can't say I'm a fan of the orange order, but they can march their merry legs off if they want, so long as they don't harm anyone.

prinz

gurramok wrote: »

I'd class them as a subversive organisation that wants the dismantling of the Irish state.
Let them march where they are welcomed despite their offensive views. If the local population do not want any of their parades in the locality be it Ballymun or Ballybrit, it does not give the OO the right to hold the country to ransom through the threat of violence based on their past deeds. Its good to talk.

Again, when was the Orange Order involved in killing servants of this state? When has an Orangeman in the Republic declared anything remotely subversive or treasonous about this state? When have they threatened violence on anyone in this country?

gurramok

prinz wrote: »

Again, when was the Orange Order involved in killing servants of this state?

A few members have been found wanting in Loyalist organisations over the years. If I had lists to RUC records of convicted members, i'd show you.

When has an Orangeman in the Republic declared anything remotely subversive or treasonous about this state?

They want the dismantling of the Irish state through joining the Union with Britain. That is subversion.

I do not remember them pledging allegiance to ROI nor embracing the Irish flag, do you?

When have they threatened violence on anyone in this country?

They have threatened violence with Billy Wright at Drumcree, Co. Armagh through force of numbers on many an occasion in the late 90's.

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

Again, when was the Orange Order involved in killing servants of this state? When has an Orangeman in the Republic declared anything remotely subversive or treasonous about this state? When have they threatened violence on anyone in this country?

Let's be a little more honest here. The Orange Order is a sectarian organisation. It requires from the get-go that you are a protestant to become a member and you can be expelled for going to a Catholic ceremony. You only have to look at the events of Garvaghy Road to see that the OO are not squeaky clean.

oscarBravo

gurramok wrote: »

They want the dismantling of the Irish state through joining the Union with Britain.

And Republicans want to dismantle the United Kingdom. It's only subversive when they threaten to achieve it through violence.

I do not remember them pledging allegiance to ROI nor embracing the Irish flag, do you?

And Republicans don't embrace the Union Jack.

They're an organisation with goals you disagree with. Big deal.

prinz

gurramok wrote: »

A few members have been found wanting in Loyalist organisations over the years.
They want the dismantling of the Irish state through joining the Union with Britain. That is subversion.

(a) So you avoided the question. When has a servant of this State been killed by Orangemen in lodges in the Republic? (b) They want nothing of the sort.

gurramok wrote: »

I do not remember them pledging allegiance to ROI nor embracing the Irish flag, do you?

Most of the Orangemen in this country are Irish citizens. As Irish as any of the rest of us. They don't go around bleating on about Union with the UK and violence etc. So many illinformed preconceptions.

gurramok wrote: »

They have threatened violence with Billy Wright at Drumcree, Co. Armagh through force of numbers on many an occasion in the late 90's.

:pac: Perhaps you should go to one of the parades in this country. Group of old farmers eating sponge cake and drinking earl grey tea talking about blight on their spuds.

dlofnep

OB makes a fair enough point.

Foxhound38

gurramok wrote: »

I'd class them as a subversive organisation that wants the dismantling of the Irish state.

Let them march where they are welcomed despite their offensive views. If the local population do not want any of their parades in the locality be it Ballymun or Ballybrit, it does not give the OO the right to hold the country to ransom through the threat of violence based on their past deeds. Its good to talk.

A mature opinion, I agree. As long as the community tolerates them there I guess they are no problem. I do object however, to them recieving money from the taxpayer as a "cultural organization". Surely there are less sectarian organizations more deserving of the money?

prinz

dlofnep wrote: »

Let's be a little more honest here. The Orange Order is a sectarian organisation. It requires from the get-go that you are a protestant to become a member and you can be expelled for going to a Catholic ceremony. You only have to look at the events of Garvaghy Road to see that the OO are not squeaky clean.

The OP was particularly about OO Lodges in the Republic, and I have yet to hear / see / know of any trouble emanating from an Orange Lodge in this country. I never said they were squeaky clean or non sectarian. More buffoonery tbh as far as I can tell. Lots of bluster and not much substance.

dlofnep

prinz wrote: »

The OP was particularly about OO Lodges in the Republic, and I have yet to hear / see / know of any trouble emanating from an Orange Lodge in this country. I never said they were squeaky clean or non sectarian. More buffoonery tbh as far as I can tell. Lots of bluster and not much substance.

As I've already stated, I have no problem with them having marches here so long as it's respectful and peaceful. I'm more than happy to welcome them as part of Ireland. So long as you recognise that the order is not squeaky clean and is sectarian by nature - then all is well.

gurramok

oscarBravo wrote: »

And Republicans want to dismantle the United Kingdom. It's only subversive when they threaten to achieve it through violence. And Republicans don't embrace the Union Jack.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/subversive

from dictionary wrote:

tending to subvert or advocating subversion, esp. in an attempt to overthrow or cause the destruction of an established or legally constituted government.
Intended or serving to subvert, especially intended to overthrow or undermine an established government: "Sex and creativity are often seen by dictators as subversive activities"

Subversion is not only through violence you know. The OO do not embrace the Irish state by using a foreign flag which they have allegiance to.

oscarbravo wrote:

They're an organisation with goals you disagree with. Big deal.

So? Do you disagree with them too?

prinz wrote: »

(a) So you avoided the question. When has a servant of this State been killed by Orangemen in lodges in the Republic? (b) They want nothing of the sort.

I do not know. Do you?

prinz wrote:

Most of the Orangemen in this country are Irish citizens. As Irish as any of the rest of us. They don't go around bleating on about Union with the UK and violence etc. So many illinformed preconceptions.

Huh? They did threaten violence in the North. Also their supporters have clashed with the RUC/PSNI over the years through violence.

They do not embrace the Irish state and have allegiance to a foreign country

prinz wrote:

:pac: Perhaps you should go to one of the parades in this country.

I'd be frightened to attend one of their parades. I've heard songs like 'up to our knees in Fenian blood', that to me is they would want me buried six feet under.

prinz wrote:

Group of old farmers eating sponge cake and drinking earl grey tea talking about blight on their spuds.

How do you know, have you been at one? Perhaps you are a member?

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

As I've already stated, I have no problem with them having marches here so long as it's respectful and peaceful. I'm more than happy to welcome them as part of Ireland. So long as you recognise that the order is not squeaky clean and is sectarian by nature - then all is well.

I would suggest sir that their marches are often hijacked by republican sympathisers with an agenda to disrupt an orderly march and cause trouble.

oscarBravo

gurramok wrote: »

Subversion is not only through violence you know.

So your problem with them is that they want to work towards a change in the legal status of part of this island?

The OO do not embrace the Irish state by using a foreign flag which they have allegiance to.

Your problem is with people who live in a state having allegiance to the flag of a different state?

Can you see where I'm going with this?

So? Do you disagree with them too?

I don't want the Republic of Ireland to be a part of the UK. I don't particularly care whether Northern Ireland is in the UK or the republic, as long as it's achieved peacefully.

I don't care how other people feel about these things, as long as they're not prepared to hurt others to achieve their goals.

prinz

gurramok wrote: »

Huh? They did threaten violence in the North. Also their supporters have clashed with the RUC/PSNI over the years through violence.

We're talking about lodges in the Republic of Ireland.

gurramok wrote: »

I'd be frightened to attend one of their parades. I've heard songs like 'up to our knees in Fenian blood', that to me is they would want me buried six feet under.How do you know, have you been at one? Perhaps you are a member?

LOL.:pac:.There are parades in this country you know? Ones that pass off peacefully and no one gives a crap about? I know because I have friends in Donegal and there are parades up there every summer too. The only difference nobody takes any notice and they do their own thing for a few tunes and away they go again. No harm done. Trouble and attention only comes when some trouble makers disrupt it instead of ignoring it.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I would suggest sir that their marches are often hijacked by republican sympathisers with an agenda to disrupt an orderly march and cause trouble.

I reject your suggestion and put forth that many members (but not all) of the Orange Order are troublesome loyalists, which was evident on a number of occasions during the Drumcree troubles and that this is one of the reasons for the upstart of the violence. I do hope that that is ok with you.

Hagar

oscarBravo wrote: »

Your problem is with people who live in a state having allegiance to the flag of a different state?

If this was The US of A, the paragon of freedom and democracy, that would not be tolerated in fairness. Personally I don't care if they want to wave a Union Jack on their parades but if they go out of their way to use that flag waving to goad people people of another religious or political belief then they have crossed the line into incitement and should be subject to the rule of law. I have never heard of Republic based Unionist do that I'm happy to say.

gurramok

oscarBravo wrote: »

So your problem with them is that they want to work towards a change in the legal status of part of this island? Your problem is with people who live in a state having allegiance to the flag of a different state?

Can you see where I'm going with this?

Yes i do. Anyone can have allegiance to a foreign flag when residing here. Its when they use that allegiance against the Irish state is where the issue is just like trying to change the legal status of the wish of the Irish people considering the history of the organisation they are involved in.

oscarBravo wrote:

I don't want the Republic of Ireland to be a part of the UK.

Good to hear, i'm surprised :eek:

oscarBravo wrote:

I don't particularly care whether Northern Ireland is in the UK or the republic, as long as it's achieved peacefully.

I don't care how other people feel about these things, as long as they're not prepared to hurt others to achieve their goals.

Thats grand so. Its the history of the OO where it was formed out of violence and where in more recent years its members and supporters have been violent at marches which gives great concern as to what their membership is up to in ROI.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

I reject your suggestion and put forth that many members (but not all) of the Orange Order are troublesome loyalists, which was evident on a number of occasions during the Drumcree troubles and that this is one of the reasons for the upstart of the violence. I do hope that that is ok with you.

I would suggest that many members of the OO are fat old farts who enjoy a good day out,few cups of tea and the hip flask.

What gives them a certain credence is the rent a mob in the Celtic jersies who seem to spring out of nowhere when these events occur.

How about ignoring these neanderthals and let them march all they like.

They will eventually look like fools .

However if people still react and light the tinder of conflageration, then they will look like heroes who have a country to defend.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

I would suggest that many members of the OO are fat old farts who enjoy a good day out,few cups of tea and the hip flask.

I'm sure there are, but many are also inexplicably linked with loyalist hoods. So instead of trying to divert blame to catholic hoods, perhaps accept that there is a portion within the OO community who are troublesome, sectarian folk?

DoireNod

prinz wrote: »

Ones that pass off peacefully and no one gives a crap about? I know because I have friends in Donegal and there are parades up there every summer too. The only difference nobody takes any notice and they do their own thing for a few tunes and away they go again. No harm done.

Some people evidently do have a problem with the marching in Donegal. However, as you say, it's a slight minority and as the Irish Times article says, the graffiti does not necessarily represent the views of the locality or the whole of Donegal.

I can't say I've had any real personal experience with Orange Order marches. When they go to Derry, Irish nationalists usually vacate the city and business comes to a standstill. In the South, I'd imagine that resentment is naturally less noticeable since there was comparatively less violence and clashing with Unionists and Orangemen.

DoireNod

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm sure there are, but many are also inexplicably linked with loyalist hoods. So instead of trying to divert blame to catholic hoods, perhaps accept that there is a portion within the OO community who are troublesome, sectarian folk?

I second this. It's well known that young loyalists with prejudiced views are and have been encouraged to become Orangemen. While being an Orangeman might not necessarily mean being troublesome, Orangemen can still be troublesome.

prinz

DoireNod wrote: »

Some people evidently do have a problem with the marching in Donegal. However, as you say, it's a slight minority and as the Irish Times article says, the graffiti does not necessarily represent the views of the locality or the whole of Donegal.I can't say I've had any real personal experience with Orange Order marches. When they go to Derry, Irish nationalists usually vacate the city and business comes to a standstill. In the South, I'd imagine that resentment is naturally less noticeable since there was comparatively less violence and clashing with Unionists and Orangemen.

No one to take any note of. They displayed their intelligence by referring to them as "Brits" that says enough to me, that whoever wrote that, they were probably kids with nothing better to do, or local uneducated wasters with nothing better to do.

Best thing to do with them is ignore the Orangemen and let them do whatever it is they want to do. They seem to thrive on confrontation and trouble north of the border. Take that away and before long the publicity dies away and they're back to being irrelevant old fellas who have nothing better in life to do.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm sure there are, but many are also inexplicably linked with loyalist hoods. So instead of trying to divert blame to catholic hoods, perhaps accept that there is a portion within the OO community who are troublesome, sectarian folk?

Yes quite sure there are, but if it were up to me I'd just ignore them.

Just the same as there are troublesome sectarian folk on the nationalist side too.Many linked to nationalist hoods.


Two sides to every story pal.

dlofnep

FlutterinBantam wrote: »

Yes quite sure there are, but if it were up to me I'd just ignore them.

Just the same as there are troublesome sectarian folk on the nationalist side too.Many linked to nationalist hoods.


Two sides to every story pal.

The topic is the orange order. There is only one story being discussed. I'm not interested in a tit for tat discussion with you.

FlutterinBantam

dlofnep wrote: »

The topic is the orange order. There is only one story being discussed. I'm not interested in a tit for tat discussion with you.

Good !!that's settled then.

Last I heard I was discussing the OO

K-9

DoireNod wrote: »

Some people evidently do have a problem with the marching in Donegal. However, as you say, it's a slight minority and as the Irish Times article says, the graffiti does not necessarily represent the views of the locality or the whole of Donegal.

I can't say I've had any real personal experience with Orange Order marches. When they go to Derry, Irish nationalists usually vacate the city and business comes to a standstill. In the South, I'd imagine that resentment is naturally less noticeable since there was comparatively less violence and clashing with Unionists and Orangemen.

Some SF head from Dublin had a sit down protest a few years ago at one near me. People still take the piss out of him!

Bottle_of_Smoke

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm sure there are, but many are also inexplicably linked with loyalist hoods. So instead of trying to divert blame to catholic hoods, perhaps accept that there is a portion within the OO community who are troublesome, sectarian folk?

No one's denying that, but is there any evidence or even suggestion there's significant links between loyalist hoods and republic based orangemen? And this is a thread about ROI based Orangemen

Also, I think your reference to the Orange Order being sectarian by nature is playing on semantics. One wouldn't describe the Catholic Church as an organisation sectarian by nature because they only let Catholics become priests, even though it would be semantically speaking.

Hagar

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Also, I think your reference to the Orange Order being sectarian by nature is playing on semantics. One wouldn't describe the Catholic Church as an organisation sectarian by nature because they only let Catholics become priests, even though it would be semantically speaking.

There's absolute nothing wrong with a religious organization only admitting those of it's own belief but is the OO a religious organization in the true sense or an organization limited to elite membership excluding one religion specifically?

Bottle_of_Smoke

Hagar wrote: »

There's absolute nothing wrong with a religious organization only admitting those of it's own belief but is the OO a religious organization in the true sense or an organization limited to elite membership excluding one religion specifically?

You must be a Protestant to join so would exclude all others.

dlofnep

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

No one's denying that, but is there any evidence or even suggestion there's significant links between loyalist hoods and republic based orangemen? And this is a thread about ROI based Orangemen

The orange order is the orange order. Anywhere on this Island, they share the exact same views and adhere to the exact same principles. The only difference is, we won't tolerate the shíte that they pulled up in Garvaghy road so they won't attempt it.

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

Also, I think your reference to the Orange Order being sectarian by nature is playing on semantics. One wouldn't describe the Catholic Church as an organisation sectarian by nature because they only let Catholics become priests, even though it would be semantically speaking.

You're really stretching with that. Religion and cultural groups are two entirely different things. I don't see Catholic churches kicking people out of the Church if someone attended a Protestant funeral.

The OO is sectarian. Not only is their membership selective to one specific religion, but they also create an environment that forbids and punishes their members for attending other services.

Bottle_of_Smoke

dlofnep wrote: »

The orange order is the orange order. Anywhere on this Island, they share the exact same views and adhere to the exact same principles. The only difference is, we won't tolerate the shíte that they pulled up in Garvaghy road so they won't attempt it.

I don't think people join for the same sectarian reasons in the ROI. I don't think lodges in the ROI are a threat to anyone. It doesn't appear the marches in Donegal antagonise locals like in Drumcree/Ardoyne

You're really stretching with that. Religion and cultural groups are two entirely different things. I don't see Catholic churches kicking people out of the Church if someone attended a Protestant funeral.

The OO is sectarian. Not only is their membership selective to one specific religion, but they also create an environment that forbids and punishes their members for attending other services.

I see no problem with not admitting non-Protestants. And I don't see it as sectarian in the used sense of the word. However I'll concede on the forbidding members attend Catholic ceremonies. It may have made sense historically due to the origins of Protestantism but after thinking about your argument is something I agree is sectarian should be done away with now.

DoireNod

People also seem to forget the actual origins of the Orange Order. They were basically founded to counter the Irish nationalism espoused by the United Irishmen and the original Orange Order was made up mostly of the Peep O'Day boys, who conducted ethno-sectarian attacks on Catholics.

By definition they are sectarian. There's no escaping that reality.

IIMII

Fratton Fred

Bottle_of_Smoke wrote: »

You must be a Protestant to join so would exclude all others.

Does it only allow protestants to join, or does it just exclude Catholics?

dlofnep

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Does it only allow protestants to join, or does it just exclude Catholics?

only protestants