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Civil Marriage Protest! 9th August!
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Iwasfrozen wrote: »I know this is going a little bit to slow for many homosexual people but we have just come out of 60 years of Catholic neo-socialist propaganda.
The Public will eventually warm to the idea, but it will take time.
I can also say The Public are more than ready and welcoming of the change, and I really believe that. But it's all just guessing on both our parts. Until there is an actual referendum and the will of the majority is heard, this kind of argument will always just be the likes of myself and yourself putting words in other people's mouth.
The irony is that in the meantime there is an inequality, with no apparent logical reason other than conservation of a legal document - the purpose of which is to represent and enshrine the will of the majority.0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »To be fair marriage is not a right.
The Brian and Co. proberbly don't want to hold a referendum as theres a chance it may be rejected. We're just going to have to wait and see how this Civil Partnership thing works out before complementing holding a referendum for Gay marraige.
I know this is going a little bit to slow for many homosexual people but we have just come out of 60 years of Catholic neo-socialist propaganda.
The Public will eventually warm to the idea, but it will take time.
There have been plenty of studies done recently that show the Irish are pretty much ready for this. Many statistic show 6 out of 10 Irish people are in favour of gay rights and feel that homosexuals are discriminated against. Of course, the government will tell you different.0 -
Do you have a link to these sources ?There have been plenty of studies done recently that show the Irish are pretty much ready for this. Many statistic show 6 out of 10 Irish people are in favour of gay rights and feel that homosexuals are discriminated against. Of course, the government will tell you different.
The majority of these reports are compiled by Homosexual activists and only published if the results reflect the views of the activists.
The Government on the other hand is stuck between a Rock and a hard place, [the Constitution being the Rock and the activists being the hard place]. They are too afraid to compile any research for fear to will damage their standing with the Gay community.
Yes I am guessing, but it is an estimated guess.Untense wrote:I can also say The Public are more than ready and welcoming of the change, and I really believe that. But it's all just guessing on both our parts. Until there is an actual referendum and the will of the majority is heard, this kind of argument will always just be the likes of myself and yourself putting words in other people's mouth.
The irony is that in the meantime there is an inequality, with no apparent logical reason other than conservation of a legal document - the purpose of which is to represent and enshrine the will of the majority.
If you look at the History of Irish referendums [such as the divorce or abortion referendums] we see the a large portion of the populace, our Leaders included still hold onto the outdated teachings of the church.
60 years of Catholic popaganda will not dissapear over a few marches.0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »Do you have a link to these sources ?
The majority of these reports are compiled by Homosexual activists and only published if the results reflect the views of the activists.
The Government on the other hand is stuck between a Rock and a hard place, [the Constitution being the Rock and the activists being the hard place]. They are too afraid to compile any research for fear to will damage their standing with the Gay community.
Yes I am guessing, but it is an estimated guess.
If you look at the History of Irish referendums [such as the divorce or abortion referendums] we see the a large portion of the populace, our Leaders included still hold onto the outdated teachings of the church.
60 years of Catholic popaganda will not dissapear over a few marches.
The last one I remember was back in Feb of this year: http://www.marriagequality.ie/press/2009/02/26/new-report-reveals-strong-support-for-the-introduction-of-samesex-marriage-in-ireland/ and the Irish Times coverage of it: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0227/1224241892986.html
The fact that only LGBT organisations are conducting research and holding surveys says something about the government who should be doing the same and publishing their results before claiming the referendum won't pass.
The government response to the above: "Government ministers have ruled out same-sex marriage on the basis that it would require a referendum which, they say, would be the subject of a deeply divisive public debate."
This is not sufficient. Even if the LGBT organisations who are conducting most of the research only publish the positive, the government isn't doings it's job to prove them wrong. Also, I wouldn't exactly trust the government either. If they conducted their own research, I'm sure as the majority seem to have no interest in gay civil marriage being implemented, they will only publish findings to show that a referendum wouldn't be passed.0 -
Again the fact that this research was carried out by a pro-gay marraige group renders it voide. Rather like Libertas or Choir claiming the majority of Irish people are against Lisbon or abortion respectively.The last one I remember was back in Feb of this year: http://www.marriagequality.ie/press/2009/02/26/new-report-reveals-strong-support-for-the-introduction-of-samesex-marriage-in-ireland/ and the Irish Times coverage of it: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0227/1224241892986.html
The fact that only LGBT organisations are conducting research and holding surveys says something about the government who should be doing the same and publishing their results before claiming the referendum won't pass.
Again the Government is stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be seen to support any side in the debate for fear of alienating their voter base on the opposite side.The government response to the above: "Government ministers have ruled out same-sex marriage on the basis that it would require a referendum which, they say, would be the subject of a deeply divisive public debate."
It's not the Governments job to prove any one wrong, it is the publics job to vote a party into Government that fits their belife, tyranny by the majority and all that.This is not sufficient. Even if the LGBT organisations who are conducting most of the research only publish the positive, the government isn't doings it's job to prove them wrong. Also, I wouldn't exactly trust the government either. If they conducted their own research, I'm sure as the majority seem to have no interest in gay civil marriage being implemented, they will only publish findings to show that a referendum wouldn't be passed.
Unless the public can give the Government water proof evidence from an unbiased source, the Government is not obliged nor entitled to initiate movement to change the constitution.0 -
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Iwasfrozen wrote: »Again the Government is stuck between a rock and a hard place, they can't be seen to support any side in the debate for fear of alienating their voter base on the opposite side.
This always seems to be the case. However, they are discriminating against many Irish citizens, EU nationals and many others legally residing in Ireland and paying taxes that go to waste. Politicians are meant to be leaders, not followers, and in this case they really need to lead.
I have no respect for FF and many other politicians in office in this country. If Labour, one party who is pro gay marriage, ever comes in to power, I will hold them to their current beliefs. However, I don't put much faith in anything that comes out of a politicians mouth, especially those in the Irish government.
Bottom line, politicians are elected to keep this country running properly (which they have failed at in terms of finances especially) and see to it that all people are treated equally. However, they don't. As a human being we all have the right to be treaty equally and without discrimination. We aren't here to prove things. The world isn't a court system and we haven't done anything wrong. However, like Panti stated at pride . . . murders, rapist and all sorts of criminals can get married and have kids, but loving and caring gay couples can't. Something is seriously wrong with this world.0 -
You don't seem to understand,This always seems to be the case. However, they are discriminating against many Irish citizens, EU nationals and many others legally residing in Ireland and paying taxes that go to waste. Politicians are meant to be leaders, not followers, and in this case they really need to lead.
I have no respect for FF and many other politicians in office in this country. If Labour, one party who is pro gay marriage, ever comes in to power, I will hold them to their current beliefs. However, I don't put much faith in anything that comes out of a politicians mouth, especially those in the Irish government.
Bottom line, politicians are elected to keep this country running properly (which they have failed at in terms of finances especially) and see to it that all people are treated equally. However, they don't. As a human being we all have the right to be treaty equally and without discrimination. We aren't here to prove things. The world isn't a court system and we haven't done anything wrong. However, like Panti stated at pride . . . murders, rapist and all sorts of criminals can get married and have kids, but loving and caring gay couples can't. Something is seriously wrong with this world.
1) In a Democracy Governments must follow the whim of the general populace if they want to keep their seets.
2) The Government can only back Gay marriage if they believe that the majority of people want it.
3) The only research done on Gay marriage was done by Gay rights activists who selectively publish only positive results.
4) The Goverment cannot conduct it's own research as they will be accused of taking sides regardless of the outcome.
5) Even if 67% of people do want Gay marriage as claimed by Gay rights activists research then the Government still risks aleinating the 33%, or 1/3 of the populace who are against it.
And it just so happens that the mojority of that 1/3 live in rural areas and FF cannot risk losing more County councills around the country.
Basically at this time
Civil Partnership = Acceptable
Gay Marriage = Not Yet Acceptable.
The only real choice we have is to wait for the general populaces approval rating to raise to 85 - 90% that is really the only time FF [or any other Government] will be able to act on Gay activists demands.0 -
I agree, thats a reality alright. It doesn't mean they can't go against them though.Iwasfrozen wrote: »1) In a Democracy Governments must follow the whim of the general populace if they want to keep their seets.
That isn't entirely true. Yes, if the issue is put to a referendum the government must accept the majority vote. But otherwise no, if they think something would be beneficial to the country or its citizens at large they could go with it, perhaps to their detriment at the next election. For example, increased taxes (levies) aren't popular and won't get the government votes but it has to be done for the sake of economic recovery.2) The Government can only back Gay marriage if they believe that the majority of people want it.0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »And divorce was legalised via referendum,
Just as same sex marraige would require a referendum.
Not necessarily, though it is possible.
At the moment the constitution says:[FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1](1.1) The State recognizes the Family as the natural primary and fundamental unit group of Society, and as a moral institution possessing inalienable and imprescriptible rights, antecedent and superior to all positive law.
(1.2) The State, therefore, guarantees to protect the Family in its constitution and authority, as the necessary basis of social order and as indispensable to the welfare of the Nation and the State.
...
[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica][SIZE=-1](3.1) The State pledges itself to guard with special care the institution of Marriage, on which the Family is founded, and to protect it against attack.[/SIZE][/FONT]
However it does not define the family as being of any particular format. It is understood to mean men+woman (plus possible children).
The that the law would have somewhere to formally define "marriage" as being between a man and a woman (not sure if this is anywhere else, but it is implicit from article 1.3, which mentions womens position in the home)
AND
That gay marriage would have to be proven to be a "threat" to the instutition.
It would take a strong legal interpretation in order to establish that marriage didn't need a woman somewhere AND that permitting others to marry would be a threat to the institution.
The fear I think is that a well resourced conservative rearguard action could challenge a law that enabled gay marriage under those articles and shoot it down if supreme court ruled as such. Its very open to interpretation and I suspect that the government don't want to stick in any laws that are likely to be thrown to the higher courts (at huge expense).
In the event of a law being proposed for gay marriage AND the law being thrown out under the interpretation of the articles above as I suggest, then, yes, a referendum would be the only option.
The problem is that no such case has yet been thrown at the courts because such a law wasn't proposed in writing.0 -
That's what I thought, which is why I started this thread in the Legal Discussion forum.
Apparently all constitutions are Read as Intended (RAI) rather than Read as Written (RAW) and it is almost certain that the writers of Bunreacht Na hÉireann ment marriage between a Man and Woman.0 -
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Iwasfrozen wrote: »You don't seem to understand,
Yes, I do understand.Iwasfrozen wrote: »1) In a Democracy Governments must follow the whim of the general populace if they want to keep their seets.
I don't believe the word whim would be appropriate. They wouldn't follow a whim of anything or anyone, it would be more of the beliefs/ideals/wants of majority (or what they believe to be the majority). I wouldn't back a government who acted on whims. Also, their seats shouldn't be their first priority, the people should be. Doing what is RIGHT should be.Iwasfrozen wrote: »2) The Government can only back Gay marriage if they believe that the majority of people want it.
How does the government know if the majority of people are pro gay civil marriage? I mean, if what's been published is bias and the government doesn't get an independent research company to conduct a survey... will they ever know?Iwasfrozen wrote: »3) The only research done on Gay marriage was done by Gay rights activists who selectively publish only positive results.
Is this true? Is it not? Unless there is hard evidence to prove otherwise, this is only an assumption. I don't see anyone rushing to it to prove them wrong.Iwasfrozen wrote: »4) The Goverment cannot conduct it's own research as they will be accused of taking sides regardless of the outcome.
The government can have an independent research company conduct research. It isn't about taking sides. It's about finding out the truth and making an informed decision.Iwasfrozen wrote: »5) Even if 67% of people do want Gay marriage as claimed by Gay rights activists research then the Government still risks aleinating the 33%, or 1/3 of the populace who are against it.
And it just so happens that the mojority of that 1/3 live in rural areas and FF cannot risk losing more County councills around the country.
Again, this shouldn't be about the seats. If they do what is right, they'll have plenty of seats. FF seem to lose plenty of seats in the local elections anyway.Iwasfrozen wrote: »The only real choice we have is to wait for the general populaces approval rating to raise to 85 - 90% that is really the only time FF [or any other Government] will be able to act on Gay activists demands.
A yes vote of 85% isn't needed. All that is needed is a majority, which, if the current surveys hold up, a referendum would get. This is a republic and it body of citizens is entitled to vote.0 -
Judging by your response you don't.Yes, I do understand.
You concentrated your whole post to just one word ?I don't believe the word whim would be appropriate. They wouldn't follow a whim of anything or anyone, it would be more of the beliefs/ideals/wants of majority (or what they believe to be the majority). I wouldn't back a government who acted on whims. Also, their seats shouldn't be their first priority, the people should be. Doing what is RIGHT should be.
How about actually attacking the idea that the Government must act solely on the behalf of the public at large ?
They will know when Public attention turns towards Gay Marriage and it becomes an important electional issue.How does the government know if the majority of people are pro gay civil marriage? I mean, if what's been published is bias and the government doesn't get an independent research company to conduct a survey... will they ever know?
A lobby set up for one reason would never provide evidence contrary to their position. It stands to sense.Is this true? Is it not? Unless there is hard evidence to prove otherwise, this is only an assumption. I don't see anyone rushing to it to prove them wrong.
It's not quite as simply as this, as it is only possible to be in two states in relation to this issue [Gay marriage, no Gay marriage] initiating research into the possibility of introducing Gay marriage would be seen by the public as supporting Gay marriage which is of course, some thing the Government cannot do.The government can have an independent research company conduct research. It isn't about taking sides. It's about finding out the truth and making an informed decision.
Welcome to Politics, everything is about keeping your seat. If you don't like it start a lobby group.Again, this shouldn't be about the seats. If they do what is right, they'll have plenty of seats. FF seem to lose plenty of seats in the local elections anyway.
No, a yes vote of 51% is needed. And as Anti Gay marriage groups are abit more, ahem, militant one can imagine that attendance on the no side would be alot higher.A yes vote of 85% isn't needed. All that is needed is a majority, which, if the current surveys hold up, a referendum would get. This is a republic and it body of citizens is entitled to vote.0 -
Good luck with the protest0
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Iwasfrozen wrote: »2) The Government can only back Gay marriage if they believe that the majority of people want it.
That is utterly false, where on earth did you come up with this little "fact". Ever heard of taxation?0 -
Actually, you don't seem to have a clue. Do you know what a Republic is? Also, see the post just above. Hell, if the government did everything the people wanted, there wouldn't be tax, or they would you the taxes properly.Iwasfrozen wrote: »Judging by your response you don't.Iwasfrozen wrote: »You concentrated your whole post to just one word ?
How about actually attacking the idea that the Government must act solely on the behalf of the public at large ?
I concentrated on that word in regards to one statement, not the entire post. Also, it is a huge misuse of the word, especially in an argument such as this.
Again, back to what a Republic is, which I'll use a dictionary definition in hopes that it will be completely clear:
"a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them."
So, gay marriage isn't an issue? I believe there is plenty of noise in Ireland that says it is. The fact the the Labour party is pro-gay marriage and out and about in regards to it, says it's an important issue. They also gained lots of support in the recent elections, especially in Dublin and in my voting area. Also, I know many country folks who are pro gay marriage, as long as it isn't forced on the church, and civil marriage would provide that. This is coming from older folks in Achill. That's pretty rural to me.Iwasfrozen wrote: »They will know when Public attention turns towards Gay Marriage and it becomes an important electional issue.
I'm not quite sure how you see it as not an issue. It's the politicians in power who are working so hard to try to make it seem like it's not an issue. If it weren't an issue, then the CP bill would never have been passed and the comment in regards to it not being a step towards marriage would never have been made.
More of an issue this becomes for the people and not for the government, the more likely the government will lose some hard-working citizens to other countries. (I know many couples, highly-skilled workers, who have moved to Canada and the Netherlands and other countries, especially where one partner was a citizen of a country where gay marriage is a right. This will continue to happen.) This is very sad as this country should be focused on it's citizens, and yet, it never seems to be (this includes more than just this issue).0 -
If it weren't an issue, then the CP bill would never have been passed and the comment in regards to it not being a step towards marriage would never have been made.
I think this is the whole crux of the problem. The CP bill bill has NOT been passed. When the 120 page initial draft was published last year Senator Jim Walsh put forward a party motion to counter the proposal. According to the newspaper reports there was between 20 and 30 representatives in the Senate and Dail who backed him. Should these be mobilized, they would be enough to counter the bill. I suspect that this was the reason that the final proposed changes were delayed to such an extent.
There is no guarantee that the CP bill will pass. Throwing the bill out on the grounds of it not being enough is one thing, and very noble. However, given that there is some evidence of a conservative backlash that has plenty of time to mobilize itself, I am worried that rejecting the bill is playing straight into their hands.0 -
I think this is the whole crux of the problem. The CP bill bill has NOT been passed. When the 120 page initial draft was published last year Senator Jim Walsh put forward a party motion to counter the proposal. According to the newspaper reports there was between 20 and 30 representatives in the Senate and Dail who backed him. Should these be mobilized, they would be enough to counter the bill. I suspect that this was the reason that the final proposed changes were delayed to such an extent.
There is no guarantee that the CP bill will pass. Throwing the bill out on the grounds of it not being enough is one thing, and very noble. However, given that there is some evidence of a conservative backlash that has plenty of time to mobilize itself, I am worried that rejecting the bill is playing straight into their hands.
My apologises. I chose the wrong word there as I was rushing my post. I understand that it hasn't been passed. Sometimes I do wonder if writing it is all for show with the intention of it not getting passed, but that's another story and shows what little faith I have in this government.
Either way, I'm glad my partner is Dutch as we can get married in the Netherlands and complete any adoptions there as well. If this must be the case, I will chose to take on Dutch Citizenship as soon as I am able.0 -
So anyway, GETTING BACK TO THE TOPIC!
In Cork Friday we will be hosting a Marriage Equality meeting with a representative from the group and will be explaining why and what Marriage Equality are looking for. I can't wait for Sunday...In Cork we have organised a bus to bring us to Limerick and collect other people and up to Dublin then for the march! You can find out all about the bus, etc... for Cork HERE and for Limerick HERE and the Cork Marriage Equality meeting HERE. It's shaping up to be a huge event!!0 -
Seeing as you have just compared Tax laws with Gay marriage it is quite obvious that you don't understand my posts. Without Tax we will be plunged into Anarchy, somehow I don't think the none existance of Gay marriage would have nearly the same effect... :rolleyes:Actually, you don't seem to have a clue. Do you know what a Republic is? Also, see the post just above. Hell, if the government did everything the people wanted, there wouldn't be tax, or they would you the taxes properly.I concentrated on that word in regards to one statement, not the entire post. Also, it is a huge misuse of the word, especially in an argument such as this.
Again, back to what a Republic is, which I'll use a dictionary definition in hopes that it will be completely clear:
"a state in which the supreme power rests in the body of citizens entitled to vote and is exercised by representatives chosen directly or indirectly by them."[/quote]
Again I know what a Republic is but the Government is not obliged to act on an issue that can't even be proven popular.
If it where a big an issue as you say it is then it wuld have featured in the election debates back in 2007 don't you think ?So, gay marriage isn't an issue? I believe there is plenty of noise in Ireland that says it is. The fact the the Labour party is pro-gay marriage and out and about in regards to it, says it's an important issue. They also gained lots of support in the recent elections, especially in Dublin and in my voting area. Also, I know many country folks who are pro gay marriage, as long as it isn't forced on the church, and civil marriage would provide that. This is coming from older folks in Achill. That's pretty rural to me.
If the politicians are trying so hard to cover over the un-deniable "fact" that Gay marriage is desired by the unwashed masses of Ireland why would they have published the CP bill in the first place ?I'm not quite sure how you see it as not an issue. It's the politicians in power who are working so hard to try to make it seem like it's not an issue. If it weren't an issue, then the CP bill would never have been passed and the comment in regards to it not being a step towards marriage would never have been made.
Oh and Gay marriage will not happen in Ireland for many years yet, possibly not in our lifetime. Sorry to burst your bubble but there are alot of backwards facing people in this country.
You do know that there are 5million people in this country right ?More of an issue this becomes for the people and not for the government, the more likely the government will lose some hard-working citizens to other countries. (I know many couples, highly-skilled workers, who have moved to Canada and the Netherlands and other countries, especially where one partner was a citizen of a country where gay marriage is a right. This will continue to happen.) This is very sad as this country should be focused on it's citizens, and yet, it never seems to be (this includes more than just this issue).
The Government will not force legislation through on the back of a couple hundred people emmigrating.0 -
what if the majority didn't want black people to vote, or own land?
anyway, I'm going to this, in part to spite I Was Frozen.0 -
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Thats why we live in a Republic, not a Democracy.what if the majority didn't want black people to vote, or own land?
I never said I didn't want anyone to go to it, I just said that this protest isn't going to force an issue that requires a referendum to pass.anyway, I'm going to this, in part to spite I Was Frozen.0 -
Iwasfrozen wrote: »Thats why we live in a Republic, not a Democracy.
well, thats ok then. Thank god there is a good reason why I shouldn't be treated like an adult citizen.0 -
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Okay people, I think we're all gtting a little carried away with some posts. Firstly I'd like to point out, AGAIN! This protest is NOT going to force the government to declare a referendum or whatever is needed for gay marriage! Secondly, I think everyone, moreso IWASFROZEN that alot of people here, myself included have not been as informed as you have (obviously) so take it easy! And a point i'd like to say...we will have civil same sex marriage in Ireland in my lifetime...I don't know your stats IWASFROZEN but I intend on living a very long and happy life with my husband!
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I never said I didn't want anyone to go to it, I just said that this protest isn't going to force an issue that requires a referendum to pass.
It's called raising awareness. Many people wouldn't realise the current bill isn't up to scratch. By protesting you provide opportunity for people who would otherwise not know, know.
If nobody makes any noise, of course the government aren't going to know there are problems. It doesn't always mean people expect changes to be made the day after.
Thirty years ago Berlin had a wall around it and people were forced to live there under communist rule. I think you underestimate how much things can change.Don't forget this is the country where you needed a prescription to get condoms 30 years ago.
30 Years ago blacks and whites were segregated in South Africa...
Thirty years ago divorce was illegal here, as was homosexuality itself. Change is happening all the time, whether you choose to see it is or not.
Gay marriage is not a big thing in comparison to some of the other changes going on in the world, and I would say it's because it's not often as blatent and shocking, that people find it much easier to dismiss it. But it is still discrimination.
This thread has really gone on for some time because you seem to be very persistent with your belief in this Ireland that somehow is impervious to change. I want to ask you what you thought of same-sex couples when you were younger, and what you think of it now?
And what it was like when you saw a coloured person in Ireland for the first time, and what it feels like now?
If there has been any change at all, what makes you think other people living in Ireland aren't capable of the same?0 -
Again you're not seeing my point. Raising awareness to whom ? The only people who can call a referendum ar ehte Government, the Government won't call a referendum unless there's evidence that the people want one and any evidence that is supplied is declared null because it is biased.It's called raising awareness. Many people wouldn't realise the current bill isn't up to scratch. By protesting you provide opportunity for people who would otherwise not know, know.
If nobody makes any noise, of course the government aren't going to know there are problems. It doesn't always mean people expect changes to be made the day after.
True but the only reason the Berlin wall fell was because the USSR fell.Thirty years ago Berlin had a wall around it and people were forced to live there under communist rule. I think you underestimate how much things can change.
Had it not been rife with political and economic instability The German Democratic Republic (East Germany) would never have fallen.
Again because the white electorate voted 68% in favour of dismantling apartheid through negotiations.30 Years ago blacks and whites were segregated in South Africa...
Divorce was legalised through a referendum. When was Homosexuality ever illegal here ?Thirty years ago divorce was illegal here, as was homosexuality itself.
Change wil not happen untill the people want it to happen, as it should be.Change is happening all the time, whether you choose to see it is or not.
Maybe, but domestically it is a huge issue.Gay marriage is not a big thing in comparison to some of the other changes going on in the world,
My personal feelings have nothing to do with the debate however when I was younger I was a staunch anti-Homosexual [I hate the term Homophobe] but really all children are and the term Gay is a huge insult in the Schoolyard. Now my view was softened allot, I accept Civil Partnership and Gay rights but draw the line at Gay marriage and Adoption rights.I want to ask you what you thought of same-sex couples when you were younger, and what you think of it now?
I was in Awe the first time. Now I'm abit in awe because black people are still quite a novelty down in the country.And what it was like when you saw a coloured person in Ireland for the first time, and what it feels like now?
Thoughts don't come into consideration when talking about constitutional referenda. We need to work on tangible evidence that people are ready for the change.If there has been any change at all, what makes you think other people living in Ireland aren't capable of the same?0 -
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Leaving aside the argument about the merits of gay marriage, how did this protest actually turn out?0
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wow, that's interesting.rainbow kirby wrote: »Until 1993.
Does any one have a link to the legislation ?0
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