United Ireland

philologos · 08-08-2009 01:32PM

Whiskey Devil wrote: »

We are talking hypothetically. It's not like anybody expects the Irish army to go to war with the LVF for 30 years. If a United Ireland was ever to become a reality (a democratic decision by a majority on both sides of the border, it would mean a HUGE shift in opinion by the Loyalist people in the north). If it was on peaceful terms, basically. As I said, it will never happen.

If it is 52% 48% there still will be a lot of opposition, potentially violent. It really doesn't need a huge shift in opinion. I mean in countries with minorities, militants can still exist. One need only look to ETA in Spain.

KINGofHEARTS wrote: »

Possibly the most west brit attitude I have ever heard, be sigining a totally different tune if it was your part of the country that was divided

Why would we be singing a different tune? Britain is a society which respects rights and civil liberties for the most part, as is Ireland. It really has no net effect apart from which nation it is attached to.

If a "West Brit" attitude involves assessing reality for what it is. Then sign me up. Northern Ireland is a separate jurisdiction to the Republic. That's merely factual.

Happy Monday · 08-08-2009 01:37PM

No.

After the initial euphoria of reunification people would become tired of angry, radical Northerners talking and protesting.

I mean - what would we do with that 20% of the population who are British citizens.

People would soon prefer a return to what we have now.....

Just look at East Germany if you don't believe me.........

DoireNod · 08-08-2009 01:41PM

I have and always will support Irish independence, since I am of the belief that it is right - the same way James Connolly and the rest of the lads did.

Regardless of the economic, social or whatever implications, the idea of Irish independence is one which I think is entirely righteous and as such, is completely worth pursuing. The principle of freedom is always worth pursuing, I believe.

I don't like the attitude that has developed in recent years, among some elements of society in the Republic, which views 'Northern Ireland' and the people who live there as foreign. It doesn't help things and frankly, it's insulting to the many Irish people in the North, not just myself.

TPD · 08-08-2009 01:41PM

Whiskey Devil wrote: »

A little off topic, but does anybody else hate the STUDENT mentality (seen above) of 'I'm leaving this country when I finish college/get my degree and never coming back'. How about you stop scrounging off the tax payer and go study somewhere else then? The fact is that 90% of you will be back with your tail between your legs when you realise that life elsewhere isn't all that great. Gobsh*tes.

I have a job and buy things in this country, as well as studying. I am paying my dues and have as much right to live here as anybody does. I also have the right to leave whenever I like.

Would you rather I stay after college, and go on the dole? Everybody I know who has just left college has done this.

Whiskey Devil · 08-08-2009 01:42PM

Jakkass wrote: »

If it is 52% 48% there still will be a lot of opposition, potentially violent. It really doesn't need a huge shift in opinion. I mean in countries with minorities, militants can still exist. One need only look to ETA in Spain.

Well you just have to look at way Ian Paisley and the DUP (and Sinn Féin) have carried their people with them into government with Martin McGuinness (a so called terrorist - hate that word) who is despised by Loyalists in general. Clearly, they have a lot of sway. It would never ever happen if there had to be a huge military presence there.

Stev_o · 08-08-2009 01:42PM

Meh if by some miracle everyone in this country decided to get along with each other and that unification would involve a peaceful transition and was independently financed yes.

But this is the real world and chances are if we were by some fallacy told by Britain you can have Ulster back it would be a disaster. Apart from the obvious violence every can imagine the economic change would cripple the country. Just think about everything that would have to be changed, teaching and education, health service, civil servants, finance, legal laws etc.

That sort of cost out weighs the whole fascination of some people of going "WE GOT OUR LAND BACK!"

TheZohanS · 08-08-2009 01:46PM

It will never happen in any of our lifetimes.

Happy Monday · 08-08-2009 01:46PM

DoireNod wrote: »

I don't like the attitude that has developed in recent years, among some elements of society in the Republic, which views 'Northern Ireland' and the people who live there as foreign. It doesn't help things and frankly, it's insulting to the many Irish people in the North, not just myself.

It is foreign - that's why we send our foreign affairs ministers like Dick Spring to talk turkey in the North.

That's why we endorsed the GFA and recognised NI's place in the UK.

Wake up and smell the coffee baby!

pablomakaveli · 08-08-2009 01:51PM

KINGofHEARTS wrote: »

Possibly the most west brit attitude I have ever heard, be sigining a totally different tune if it was your part of the country that was divided

West Brit my arse. You're the bigger traitor to your country by supporting something that could ruin the Republic. I'm a firm nationalist and no so called "Republican" can tell me otherwise.

LongLiveQ&A · 08-08-2009 01:51PM

I think there's too much of a difference between the two jurisdictions on this island to become just one. Just think about it this way, do you want to live in a country where Ian Paisley Jnr is a member of the Daíl (or whatever the loyalists insist it would be called)?

Whiskey Devil · 08-08-2009 01:51PM

Happy Monday wrote: »

It is foreign - that's why we send our foreign affairs ministers like Dick Spring to talk turkey in the North.

That's why we endorsed the GFA and recognised NI's place in the UK.

Wake up and smell the coffee baby!

It may be a foreign jurisdiction, but it's used as an insult to Irish people in the North.

Sea Sharp · 08-08-2009 01:51PM

I think a United states of Europe is a more realistic possibility than a united Ireland.

It didn't happen, and it won't ever happen. A significant proportion of Northern Ireland does not want to leave the UK and that's not gonna change in the next 50 years.

I wouldn't wish our crap government upon anybody else.

Seaneh · 08-08-2009 01:56PM

Skipping all the talking in-thread and just replying to the OP here.

If, as the SNP plan, a Scottish independence referendum goes ahead in the next two years, and IF is passes, and IF the union is broken, THEN there is a massive chance of a united Ireland within the next 10 years as I feel wales would follow Scotland a few years down the line and the union would be just England and N. Ireland.

Mossy Monk · 08-08-2009 02:03PM

Take away all the assholes with the hatred then sure.

philologos · 08-08-2009 02:03PM

Whiskey Devil wrote: »

Well you just have to look at way Ian Paisley and the DUP (and Sinn Féin) have carried their people with them into government with Martin McGuinness (a so called terrorist - hate that word) who is despised by Loyalists in general. Clearly, they have a lot of sway. It would never ever happen if there had to be a huge military presence there.

As for Ian Paisley, I don't think he was involved in militant activity at all.

Belfast was like Baghdad. One has to just look to places such as "RPG Avenue" to realise that it was quite a serious conflict. Not only that, but there was considerable interchanging between the Provisional IRA, and other terrorist groups around the world including ETA and the PLO. So much interchanging that there were Provisional IRA members fighting alongside Palestinians in the 1982 War. I wouldn't be surprised if it happened the other way around too.

I think it's clearly obvious why the British thought it appropriate to have a military placement in Northern Ireland. It was a dangerous place at the time, and clearly the police were out of their depths trying to deal with it.

As for hating the word terrorist, it's the only suitable one to refer to Provisional IRA violence, and it's the only suitable one to refer to Loyalist violence. Although it is more gangland crime these days than anything else.

LongLiveQ&A wrote:

do you want to live in a country where Ian Paisley Jnr is a member of the Daíl (or whatever the loyalists insist it would be called)?

The Commons of course :pac:

daniel91 · 08-08-2009 02:11PM

Personally i would love to see a United Ireland, and be a citizen of Ireland not just the Republic. But honestly I can't see it happening. My belief is that the armed struggle would have to return first and the only way that the IRA, not the RIRA, would have the support of the people would be for another event such as bloddy sunday to occur, and don't think the brits will make that mistake again.

Such a shame that so many Irish Volunteers have bravly lost their life for the cause and the 6 counties still under British rule.

philologos · 08-08-2009 02:15PM

daniel91 wrote: »

Personally i would love to see a United Ireland, and be a citizen of Ireland not just the Republic. But honestly I can't see it happening. My belief is that the armed struggle would have to return first and the only way that the IRA, not the RIRA, would have the support of the people would be for another event such as bloddy sunday to occur, and don't think the brits will make that mistake again.

Why is it worth going to such lengths to get? It's this kind of mentality that gets me thinking that such nationalism is dangerous. I'd honestly prefer if people would toss the nationalism aside and just get into the issue of how we can better relate to eachother as human beings. At the end of the day that's what we all are, human beings deserving of respect.

daniel91 wrote: »

Such a shame that so many Irish Volunteers have bravly lost their life for the cause and the 6 counties still under British rule.

By Irish Volunteers, I presume you are talking about the Provisional IRA. Let's be honest, those lives were wasted, just as much as the lives of the victims were wasted. Those people could have left this world a better place. Families destroyed no doubt. Was it worth it?

Stev_o · 08-08-2009 02:20PM

daniel91 wrote: »

Personally i would love to see a United Ireland, and be a citizen of Ireland not just the Republic. But honestly I can't see it happening. My belief is that the armed struggle would have to return first and the only way that the IRA, not the RIRA, would have the support of the people would be for another event such as bloddy sunday to occur, and don't think the brits will make that mistake again.

Such a shame that so many Irish Volunteers have bravly lost their life for the cause and the 6 counties still under British rule.

Why a armed struggle? We'd be the first EU country to invade another EU member state and would result us getting thrown out and getting our ass handed to us by the EU and the UN. Also if you think that we could somehow even win a war against UK is a completely fallacy, Collins would turn in his grave.

Whiskey Devil · 08-08-2009 02:21PM

Jakkass wrote: »

As for Ian Paisley, I don't think he was involved in militant activity at all.

I'm not suggesting that Ian Paisley was involved in militant activity, although he played a huge part in drumming up the hatred that's clearly evident today. He has indirectly killed people, but he's also done a lot of good in the last few years. Dwelling on the past will not help anybody.

My point was that there has been very little armed resistance on either side to the power sharing government - so both parties clearly have a huge say in their communities.

As for being terrorists, well that's just an opinion, not a fact.

philologos · 08-08-2009 02:23PM

Whiskey Devil wrote: »

I'm not suggesting that Ian Paisley was involved in militant activity, although he played a huge part in drumming up the hatred that's clearly evident today. He has indirectly killed people, but he's also done a lot of good in the last few years. Dwelling on the past will not help anybody.

One could argue that about Paisley, but if there isn't anything concrete to back up the accusation it falls on deaf ears. People would have to actively go through transcripts of his speeches (including within the walls of Free Presbyterian Churches on Sundays) and see if he has ever encouraged the killing of anyone in Northern Ireland.

daniel91 · 08-08-2009 02:26PM

Jakkass wrote: »

Why is it worth going to such lengths to get? It's this kind of mentality that gets me thinking that such nationalism is dangerous. I'd honestly prefer if people would toss the nationalism aside and just get into the issue of how we can better relate to eachother as human beings. At the end of the day that's what we all are, human beings deserving of respect.

By Irish Volunteers, I presume you are talking about the Provisional IRA. Let's be honest, those lives were wasted, just as much as the lives of the victims were wasted. Those people could have left this world a better place. Families destroyed no doubt. Was it worth it?

Don't get me wrong, i would be 100% content if things stayed the way they are with no voilence. I'm behind the peace process and hope it succeds. I'm just saying that one day i'd like to see a 32 county state, and thats the only way i can see it happening, even though i don't agree with it.

Yes iam taking about the PIRA, i have no support for the RIRA what so ever. Yes i can understand why you might think that they died for a waste, but thats using heinz sight but back then their was belief in the people that they could win the war and they believed that they could achive a united ireland.

Whiskey Devil · 08-08-2009 02:29PM

Jakkass wrote: »

One could argue that about Paisley, but if there isn't anything concrete to back up the accusation it falls on deaf ears. People would have to actively go through transcripts of his speeches (including within the walls of Free Presbyterian Churches on Sundays) and see if he has ever encouraged the killing of anyone in Northern Ireland.

He has more or less said it in public (around the time of the Anglo-Irish agreement) but I'm too lazy to look for videos.

Whiskey Devil · 08-08-2009 02:32PM

daniel91 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, i would be 100% content if things stayed the way they are with no voilence. I'm behind the peace process and hope it succeds. I'm just saying that one day i'd like to see a 32 county state, and thats the only way i can see it happening, even though i don't agree with it.

Yes iam taking about the PIRA, i have no support for the RIRA what so ever. Yes i can understand why you might think that they died for a waste, but thats using heinz sight but back then their was belief in the people that they could win the war and they believed that they could achive a united ireland.

I don't see why another 'Bloody Sunday' would change anything. The Republic basically abandoned the Irish people in the north for the majority of the troubles. If anything, people would do less.

philologos · 08-08-2009 02:33PM

daniel91 wrote: »

Yes iam taking about the PIRA, i have no support for the RIRA what so ever. Yes i can understand why you might think that they died for a waste, but thats using heinz sight but back then their was belief in the people that they could win the war and they believed that they could achive a united ireland.

There is no difference between killing for political beliefs, than killing for any other belief. There is no difference between this and the kind of militant activity that goes on elsewhere. This ranges from fighting in a hotel, flying aircraft into two towers, or blowing yourself up in a busy street. It's all detestable, justifying it is merely the same as justifying other attacks.

Whether they believed or not is irrelevant. They achieved nothing for anyone, unless pain, grief and suffering are somehow achievements.

A "united Ireland" isn't worth dying for. It is debatable as to whether or not it is even a noble aim to die for.

Hindsight is the only thing you can use to look at terrorist atrocities of the past. It may be a revisionist view of history, but it's valid revisionism that helps us grasp that what happened in the past was a terrible idea.

daniel91 · 08-08-2009 02:37PM

Jakkass wrote: »

There is no difference between dying for political beliefs, than dying for any other belief. There is no difference between this and the kind of militant activity that goes on elsewhere. This ranges from fighting in a hotel, flying aircraft into two towers, or blowing yourself up in a busy street. It's all detestable, justifying it is merely the same as justifying other attacks.

Whether they believed or not is irrelevant. They achieved nothing for anyone, unless pain, grief and suffering are somehow achievements.

A "united Ireland" isn't worth dying for. It is debatable as to whether or not it is a noble aim even to die for.

Hindsight is the only thing you can use to look at terrorist atrocities of the past. It may be a revisionist view of history, but it's valid revisionism that helps us grasp that what happened in the past was a terrible idea.

Well what about Catholics that were dicriminated against. The armed sruggle oringinally started during the Civil Rights movement. A young Protestent couple getting a consil house before a single mother with 5 or 6 children, just because they were catholic. They did'nt just die for a United Ireland the dyed for the right to be treated equally.

Whiskey Devil · 08-08-2009 02:41PM

Jakkass wrote: »

There is no difference between dying for political beliefs, than dying for any other belief. There is no difference between this and the kind of militant activity that goes on elsewhere. This ranges from fighting in a hotel, flying aircraft into two towers, or blowing yourself up in a busy street. It's all detestable, justifying it is merely the same as justifying other attacks.

Whether they believed or not is irrelevant. They achieved nothing for anyone, unless pain, grief and suffering are somehow achievements.

A "united Ireland" isn't worth dying for. It is debatable as to whether or not it is even a noble aim to die for.

Hindsight is the only thing you can use to look at terrorist atrocities of the past. It may be a revisionist view of history, but it's valid revisionism that helps us grasp that what happened in the past was a terrible idea.

That's all well and good if you live in la-la land. Humans have been at war since the dawn of man. Sometimes aggression has to be fought with aggression. Yes, we would all like to live in a peaceful world, but it's not human nature and it's not reality.

Stev_o · 08-08-2009 02:56PM

daniel91 wrote: »

Well what about Catholics that were dicriminated against. The armed sruggle oringinally started during the Civil Rights movement. A young Protestent couple getting a consil house before a single mother with 5 or 6 children, just because they were catholic. They did'nt just die for a United Ireland the dyed for the right to be treated equally.

Sorry but the Catholic population in the North did not help themselves, between the Catholic Church opposing universal education where religion would be left at the door to the others that ignored the blackout during WW2 and openly burned their issued gas masks to people refusing to join the NIC even when there was 1/4 of places reserved for Catholics.

It's easy to make a group of people a target if they openly defy any sort of government in place.

Purple Gorilla · 08-08-2009 03:16PM

DoireNod wrote: »

I have and always will support Irish independence, since I am of the belief that it is right - the same way James Connolly and the rest of the lads did.

Regardless of the economic, social or whatever implications, the idea of Irish independence is one which I think is entirely righteous and as such, is completely worth pursuing. The principle of freedom is always worth pursuing, I believe.

I don't like the attitude that has developed in recent years, among some elements of society in the Republic, which views 'Northern Ireland' and the people who live there as foreign. It doesn't help things and frankly, it's insulting to the many Irish people in the North, not just myself.

And you'd be willing to risk the financial stability of the Republic for this?

PaulieD · 08-08-2009 03:20PM

Larkin501 wrote: »

Doesn't bother me. I'll leave the country as soon as I leave college if I can :pac:

Arent you great? Slan leat.

minidazzler · 08-08-2009 03:21PM

Not a chance, there is very little Private industry in NI, it's all govt sponsered infrastructure by the British, if we had control we would have to pay for that crap!!!!! Not a chance in hell.

United Ireland

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