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Luas Development

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    #242
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    Victor wrote:
    Depends on what is used. If gauges, voltage and boarding height are the same, it doesn't make much difference.
    Boarding height definitely won't, for one.


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    #243
    gobdaw
    Closed Accounts Posts: 137 ✭✭gobdaw


    Victor wrote:
    Depends on what is used. If gauges, voltage and boarding height are the same, it doesn't make much difference.

    spacetweek wrote:
    Boarding height definitely won't, for one.

    Nor voltage


  • Options
    #244
    jd
    Registered Users Posts: 5,688 ✭✭✭jd


    Victor wrote:

    And what wrong with underground trams? :p
    Just don't call it a metro!


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    #245
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,350 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Newsletter http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/Line%20BX%20Newsletter.pdf

    http://www.rpa.ie/?id=13
    City Centre Link Between Green and Red Luas Lines

    The final Luas Open Day on selecting the best route for linking the Luas Green Line and Red Line has been arranged for Wednesday, February 15th at Civic Offices, Wood Quay, Dublin 8.

    The public consultation document which has already been issued indicates five route options for linking the two lines. The document was drawn up as a result of pre-feasibility studies which were carried out by RPA. This document has formed the basis for discussion and consultation with residents, business and commercial interests, Luas customers, stakeholders and the general public aimed at developing a preferred route for linking the two lines. Many submissions have already been received and this event is the last public Open Day before a final route is chosen.

    Joining the two Luas lines is projected to increase Luas passenger numbers by 5.5 million per annum.

    Transport 21 provides for a city-centre link between St. Stephen’s Green and the Luas Red Line and subsequent extension of this line northwards serving Broadstone/Grangegorman and connecting with the Maynooth suburban rail line.

    A copy of the public consultation newsletter is available to download here.

    For further information contact Tom Manning at +353874100199 or Ger Hannon at +353879091229.


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    #246
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,350 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Luas / Metro Parliamentary Questions

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2054854833&highlight=Luas+BX


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    #247
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,350 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    strassenwolf wrote:
    Well, the options for the link-up are now on view at:

    http://www.rpa.ie/cms/download.asp?id=79
    Anyone got the original of this. Link broken.


  • Options
    #248
    MarkoP11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,331 ✭✭✭MarkoP11


    Thats the Luas - Important Notice pdf with the 5 options pdf ?

    http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/Luas%20-%20Important%20Notice.pdf

    Little bit of thought solves that, the RPA website doesn't acually delete documents


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    #249
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,350 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    MarkoP11 wrote:
    Thats the Luas - Important Notice pdf with the 5 options pdf ? http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/Luas%20-%20Important%20Notice.pdf Little bit of thought solves that, the RPA website doesn't acually delete documents
    Thanks, I didn't recognise the front page and the different file name threw me.


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    #250
    strassenwolf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 642 ✭✭✭strassenwolf


    The Irish Times wrote:
    Failure to link Luas lines very costly - Mitchell

    Michael O'Regan

    The failure to join the two Dublin Luas lines was costing the company five million passengers annually, Fine Gael's transport spokeswoman Olivia Mitchell said.

    "Failure to join the lines was not just an inconvenience to passengers. We must always be conscious of the opportunity lost by not doing things or changing them," she said. Criticising the Government's Transport 21 initiative, Ms Mitchell said she knew nothing about the list of projects involved. She did not know the cost, or how the projects were prioritised.

    She said that Transport 21 was too big a project for secrecy. "We must make decisions based on hard information and not on intuition. We need transparency, openness and the hard-nosed professional cost-benefit analysis of the network and individual projects to common criteria."

    Labour spokeswoman Róisín Shortall said that in a modern society and economy, which we claim to have, it was intolerable that we were on such a knife-edge that a little rain could bring traffic to a standstill.

    "We know from accident statistics that trucks are disproportionately involved in fatal accidents and have an environmental cost in terms of wear and tear of the roads. The Government needs to draw up a policy on how we can encourage industry to switch from road transport to rail freight."

    Another matter ignored by Transport 21 was the traffic congestion associated with the school run, said Ms Shortall.

    Green Party spokesman Ciarán Cuffe claimed the Government would be remembered for "its guff and fluff" relating to transport. The Navan rail link, for example, had been promised on the eve of elections in 1997 and 2002, but had not been delivered.

    "It was promised again during the byelection campaign in Co Meath a couple of years ago. When I stood on the rail bed of the Navan line last Saturday, I noticed that grass was growing up through the tracks." Seán Crowe (SF, Dublin South West) said that many people in his consituency were suffering because of the M50, which was "a giant car park".

    It was an issue which divided people, he said. "The lucky people who are not stuck in traffic every day do not really understand the grief and frustration suffered every morning, day in, day out, by those who are trying to get on with their lives by going to work, dropping their kids to school, or going to the shops."

    Joe Callanan (FF, Galway East) said that Transport 21 provided for investment in transport infrastructure in excess of €34 billion over a 10-year period, covering the areas of national roads, public transport and regional airports.

    "Never in my lifetime have I seen such investment in infrastructure, and I congratulate the Minister, Mr Cullen, in this regard. This investment is shared all over the country."

    Cecilia Keaveney (FF, Donegal North East) claimed the northwest had often failed "to have lines on maps recognised, particularly in respect of transport infrastructure".

    Unfortunately, a simple and clear reason for that was that most access to Donegal was through a jurisdiction over which the Republic could not legislate or plan.

    © The Irish Times

    It would be nice to know what progress is being made with the link-up. Especially since so many people contributed at the open days.


  • Options
    #251
    OTK
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭OTK


    It would be nice if they put the funds for the linkup into joining the green line and the metro by extending the tunnel south of Stephen's Green. Otherwise, if the luas is extended overland, the buses will go even slower in the city centre and we'll have two overlapping lines covering the same city centre route on the same gauge of track that don't actually connect.


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    #252
    strassenwolf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 642 ✭✭✭strassenwolf


    Victor wrote: »
    Newsletter http://www.rpa.ie/upload/documents/Line%20BX%20Newsletter.pdf

    City Centre Link Between Green and Red Luas Lines

    The final Luas Open Day on selecting the best route for linking the Luas Green Line and Red Line has been arranged for Wednesday, February 15th at Civic Offices, Wood Quay, Dublin 8.

    http://www.rpa.ie/?id=13

    So, that was three and a half years ago, that we had the final Open Day, right?

    I'll have to look back through my notes, but it was about a half year after that that we were presented with the preferred route.

    So, three years, and no obvious progress in building a link-up.

    How much time do these people need?


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    #253
    Chris_533976
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,082 ✭✭✭Chris_533976


    The Luas linkup wont be OVERLY expensive, in comparison to other things. It should be the #1 transport priority, even more important than the Interconnector. (But of course both should be done). Its ridiculous that the two lines dont meet, the worst excuse for a screw up ever. It will link things up REASONABLY well, not as well as the IC but good enough for the amount that it would cost.

    Its a disgrace this isnt being fast tracked as the absolute priority.


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    #254
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    the real transport priority should be integrated ticketing and fares. That should be sorted before any more infrastructure is rolled out.


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    #255
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭mackerski


    Chris_533976 wrote: »
    The Luas linkup wont be OVERLY expensive, in comparison to other things. It should be the #1 transport priority, even more important than the Interconnector.

    Why? Sounds very suspicious to me.


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    #256
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    Chris_533976 wrote: »
    The Luas linkup wont be OVERLY expensive, in comparison to other things. It should be the #1 transport priority, even more important than the Interconnector. (But of course both should be done). Its ridiculous that the two lines dont meet, the worst excuse for a screw up ever. It will link things up REASONABLY well, not as well as the IC but good enough for the amount that it would cost.

    Its a disgrace this isnt being fast tracked as the absolute priority.

    It would be advantageous if they were linked but it is hardly a priority.

    There is nothing to prove that users of the green line would be users of the red line etc.

    At this point it would be better to provide a free shuttle bus between the two lines and put the funding into other projects that would provide more utility to Dubliners. The interconnector would certainly do that.


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    #257
    Breezer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭Breezer


    BrianD wrote: »
    At this point it would be better to provide a free shuttle bus between the two lines and put the funding into other projects that would provide more utility to Dubliners. The interconnector would certainly do that.
    Not to mention also facilitating commuters in other parts of the country.


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    #258
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    The Interconnector is more important than the Luas linkup by orders of magnitude. No comparison.

    Its debatable whether we actually really need the luas link up, and the looping route is farcical given that we have the widest street one of the widest streets in Europe to play with!


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    #259
    Wild Bill
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,129 ✭✭✭Wild Bill


    The Interconnector is the single most important of all the proposed transport projects in Dublin (road or rail). If only one were to go ahead it should be that.


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    #260
    Cionnfhaolaidh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 141 ✭✭Cionnfhaolaidh


    D.L.R. wrote: »
    we have the widest street in Europe to play with!

    I can't believe this false fact in still doing its rounds. O'Connell Street is far from the widest street in Europe. There are literally hundreds of streets in Europe that are much wider.

    Have you ever been to mainland Europe? Pay a visit to Berlin, Paris, Madrid, Rome, and you will realise that O'C is nothing in comparison to the grand avenues they have over there.

    Perhaps it's a 'fact' based on a technicality. In Europe they call wide streets 'Avenues', which Ireland doesn't have.

    Lol!


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    #261
    HonalD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,288 ✭✭✭HonalD


    BrianD wrote: »
    At this point it would be better to provide a free shuttle bus between the two lines and put the funding into other projects that would provide more utility to Dubliners. The interconnector would certainly do that.

    Keeping a "walking" link between the 2 lines may keep everyone happy. :)


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    #262
    D.L.R.
    Registered Users Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭D.L.R.


    Cionnfhaolaidh wrote: »
    I can't believe this false fact in still doing its rounds. O'Connell Street is far from the widest street in Europe. There are literally hundreds of streets in Europe that are much wider.

    Have you ever been to mainland Europe? Pay a visit to Berlin, Paris, Madrid, Rome, and you will realise that O'C is nothing in comparison to the grand avenues they have over there.

    Perhaps it's a 'fact' based on a technicality. In Europe they call wide streets 'Avenues', which Ireland doesn't have.

    Lol!

    You may be right but its beside the point really.


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    #263
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 4,990 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    The Luas Link up is very far from the highest priority. In fact at this stage I'd go as far as to say that all further Luas lines should be stalled until we get the Metro and the Interconnector out of the way.

    The economic benefits of those two are so huge that Luas is dwarfed by them.

    This would also allow us to go back to the drawing board for certain Luas lines which have bad alignments and won't be effective. E.G. Lucan Luas, Luas B2 to Bray, I'm looking at you.


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    #264
    Idbatterim
    Registered Users Posts: 17,849 ✭✭✭✭Idbatterim


    why doesnt the metro just connect the red line and green line? or would having one extra change be too much to ask?


  • Options
    #265
    KC61
    Registered Users Posts: 4,316 ✭✭✭KC61


    BrianD wrote: »
    It would be advantageous if they were linked but it is hardly a priority.

    There is nothing to prove that users of the green line would be users of the red line etc.

    At this point it would be better to provide a free shuttle bus between the two lines and put the funding into other projects that would provide more utility to Dubliners. The interconnector would certainly do that.

    I'd have to agree - I really do not think that there are that many users of the Green Line that want to continue on the red line that would justify the linking of the two.

    The 92 bus already links the two lines, as do most of the buses from St Stephen's Green North.


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    #266
    Geogregor
    Registered Users Posts: 397 ✭✭Geogregor


    Guys red and green line should be join ASAP.
    You try to build grandiose projects and such simple thing is not done yet. Why? When I was in Dublin I was seriously puzzled by this.
    How are you going to build public transport network if things are not join together?
    Can you show me any European city which claims to have transport network, where tram lines do not actually meet?
    It is a joke.


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    #267
    strassenwolf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 642 ✭✭✭strassenwolf


    murphaph wrote: »
    the real transport priority should be integrated ticketing and fares. That should be sorted before any more infrastructure is rolled out.
    While I believe you're correct that integrated ticketing is currently the most important transport issue to be dealt with in Dublin, I don't believe that this approach is the correct one.

    Primarily because the expertise associated with the rollout of infrastructure does not really coincide with the expertise involved in developing integrated ticketing.

    Decent infrastructure needs to be developed, given the deficit which exists in Dublin, compared to other cities of a similar size. Infrastructure development needs to continue regardless of the integrated ticketing situation so that, when it eventually comes - as it will - Dublin is as well placed as possible to take full advantage.

    The costs of construction of the original LUAS lines were well over budget. I haven't yet seen any figures for how the lines currently under construction are doing against their budgets, but I imagine that we would have heard if things were well out of line.

    It's true that most of the LUAS projects which the RPA are involved in are out in the sticks, or in areas which are currently very underpopulated.

    Nevertheless, a considerable amount of expertise about building LUAS lines must have been built up in the organisation. And the experience gained from the out-of-town projects should not, in my opinion, be allowed go to waste.

    Perhaps even to the extent that it is ready to handle a city centre LUAS project?

    Whereas, we don't yet know if anything has been learnt by the work into integrated ticketing. Different people were surely involved, and it is certainly not clear to what extent the corprorate memory gleaned from the project will be of benefit in the future, especially if it is removed from the RPA's remit.


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    #268
    noelfirl
    Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭noelfirl


    Geogregor wrote: »
    Guys red and green line should be join ASAP.
    You try to build grandiose projects and such simple thing is not done yet. Why? When I was in Dublin I was seriously puzzled by this.
    How are you going to build public transport network if things are not join together?
    Can you show me any European city which claims to have transport network, where tram lines do not actually meet?
    It is a joke.

    Metro North will form an only barely indirect link between Red and Green. There's a very finite pot of money, if even any money, and if your options are a direct Luas link or a slightly indirect link but will also service vast swathes of the population elsewhere in the mix, then it's a no-brainer which should get absolute priority. Direct Luas linkups can wait. Critical money should be directed into the Interconnector and Metro North.


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    #269
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    Geogregor wrote: »
    Guys red and green line should be join ASAP.
    You try to build grandiose projects and such simple thing is not done yet. Why? When I was in Dublin I was seriously puzzled by this.
    How are you going to build public transport network if things are not join together?
    Can you show me any European city which claims to have transport network, where tram lines do not actually meet?
    It is a joke.

    While it would be advantageous to have them joined but as I stated before there is no study or evidence to support that there is a demand from Green Line users to transfer to the Red line and vice versa.

    It is not a "simple thing" to join the the two lines and this is the reason why it was never done in the first place. At this point in time, we are better off building other transport projects and putting a shuttle bus in place between the two lines.

    Integrated transport does not mean that the various modes have to be physically joined.


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    #270
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    BrianD wrote: »
    While it would be advantageous to have them joined but as I stated before there is no study or evidence to support that there is a demand from Green Line users to transfer to the Red line and vice versa.

    It is not a "simple thing" to join the the two lines and this is the reason why it was never done in the first place. At this point in time, we are better off building other transport projects and putting a shuttle bus in place between the two lines.

    Integrated transport does not mean that the various modes have to be physically joined.

    Its not about green line or red line passengers wanting to transfer. Its about a green line passenger that wants to go north of the liffey. How about a red line passenger that wants to go southside? Spending close to 800 million on two tram lines that aren't linked and terminate in seperate parts of the city is an international joke. There is no excusing it. Its not acceptable. And once again we talk about shuttle buses as if they are the solution to badly planned public transport projects. A real sticky plaster approach.

    You can salivate at the thoughts of a DART tunnel and Metro all you want, but the chances are that due to a real lack of finance, Dublin will be left with a disjointed mess and cobweb covered posters for Transport 21. If you are going to do something, you do it right first time out. Then move on to the next project. When the money runs out then at the very least you have projects that were built to the highest and most effective standards.

    In Ireland we planned public transport in the same manner that developers borrowed from banks and banks loaned to developers - carelessly, wrecklessly and in the naieve belief that the money was going to flow forever. The mismanagement of public transport implementation is an utterly shameful act.


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    #271
    mackerski
    Registered Users Posts: 2,278 ✭✭✭mackerski


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    Its not about green line or red line passengers wanting to transfer. Its about a green line passenger that wants to go north of the liffey. How about a red line passenger that wants to go southside?

    Such interchanges will be catered for by the metro.


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