Luas Development

strassenwolf

Now that he's linked the M11 to the M50, Martin Cullen wants to do even more...

This is from Today's Indo:



Luas lines link-up may squeeze motorists off centre city streets



MORE restrictions on cars in Dublin city centre are set to accompany a brand new cross-city Luas line joining up the Tallaght and Sandyford lines.

The line is now widely expected to run from St Stephen's Green to O'Connell St via Dawson St and Suffolk St and the front of Trinity College.

However six possible routes have been prepared by the Rail Procurement Agency (RPA), although the Dawson St/Suffolk St/TCD line is believed by many to to be the clear favourite.

But the line will not be running through TCD, Transport Minister Martin Cullen said yesterday.

At celebrations to mark the first anniversary of the opening of the Luas, the minister gave a clear signal that cars may be severely restricted or banned where Luas and Dublin Bus will take up narrow road space along the route from St Stephen's Green around TCD.

"If as a consequence (Luas pushes back cars) then so be it. I don't need cars there," said Mr Cullen.

He strongly indicated the link will be contained in the Government's 10-year investment plan for transport due shortly. "I believe the lines should be linked." Mr Cullen attacked the Opposition stating that Fine Gael had described Luas as "a complete disaster" and Labour had labelled it "a national joke".

"The Luas's success has surpassed all expectation," he declared. The RPA's six feasible routes for the €70m Luas link between St Stephen's Green and O'Connell St linking the Sandyford and Tallaght lines, taking in Heuston and Connolly rail stations, are due to go out to public consultation within the next few weeks.

Mr Cullen also said he would also be signing the order extending the Luas to Cherrywood in south Dublin whenever that is made available to him.

It was disclosed yesterday that the total number of commercial passenger trips in the period July 5, 2004 to June 27, 2005 was 16,452,856. Luas is well on course to carry 20 million passengers in calendar year 2005, chief executive Frank Allen predicted.

Last Friday was its busiest day so far with 91,398 passengers, boosted by thousands of U2 fans travelling to Croke Park.

Plans are at an advanced stage for extending the Green Line to Cherrywood and for extending the Red Line to the Point Depot.

Treacy Hogan

Slice

To be honest the plans to extend the luas network seem insignificant compared to what was originally envisaged on the DTO's A Platform For Change.

Like - originally the two lines were suppose to link up in the first place so really all the minister is doing in announcing such a plan is playing catch up. The Cherrywood extension, Point Depot extension and Citiwest extension are just add-ons to existing lines but what about the line out to Ballymun? Whatever happened to that idea?

loyatemu

yeah - this government is very good at talking but has done very little to actually improve dublin transport.

has it actually been responsible for any major public transport infrastructure in the last 8 years? the luas was already underway, the metro and interconnector are still on the long finger. the reopening of the midleton rail line (which could be done in 12 months if the will was there) seems to have been forgotten.

For all the success of the luas, plans should already have been underway for new lines by the time the red and green lines opened. Its now a year later and not a single sod has been turned on the extensions which, when they finally do get underway will take years to build!

Stark

So much for a LUAS/Metro line to Blanchardstown then

gobdaw

Slice wrote:

To be honest the plans to extend the luas network seem insignificant compared to what was originally envisaged on the DTO's A Platform For Change.

How about the proposed service dedicated to linking Heuston and Connolly Rail Stations. This was to be a service using part of the Red line and should be simple to provide. Whatever happened to that idea?

But then, we are dealing with the RPA who, in their wisdom, decide to put the shorter trams on the service that has almost twice the distance to serve. Only now does RPA seem to be edging to the radical idea of extending the length of the red trams.

murphaph

loyatemu wrote:

...the reopening of the midleton rail line...seems to have been forgotten.

Iarnrod eireann are currently clearing the line of overgrowth to enable them get to work laying track etc. I agree with the rest of your post, this government are all talk. We ant some action on transport.

murphaph

Stark wrote:

So much for a LUAS/Metro line to Blanchardstown then

Blanch has a proper railway. Under the Dublin Rail Plan a massive increase in frequency would materialise. Even without the DRP, the new station at Spencer Dock will allow a very frequent service on this line.

loyatemu

Iarnrod eireann are currently clearing the (midleton) line of overgrowth

they could've cleared, relayed and reopened the line at this stage if they were given the money (which wouldn't be a huge amount, its not a long distance)

murphaph

loyatemu wrote:

they could've cleared, relayed and reopened the line at this stage if they were given the money (which wouldn't be a huge amount, its not a long distance)

I'm sure they could do it faster but the Midleton reopening isn't the only project IE PW engineers are engaged in at the moment. The fact remains that the reopening of this line hasn't been forgotten-it's happening, albeit too slowly for some which is perfectly understandable.

Victor

Lots of Parliamentary Questions here:

http://www.transport.ie/press/pqs/2005.asp?lang=ENG&loc=1860

All with the answer "we are thinking about thinking about it".

Thomond Pk

The oireactas transport committee can be a bit hit and miss alright.

Only the ten year capital spending plan will give us the answers, the RPA are sitting on multiple disasters in relation to the Cherrywood extension. The RPA will be described as the NRA of rail once they announce the route they have selected if my information is correct.

SeanW

That's if we ever see the ten year plan - its going down the same road the Metro and the Second Terminal did - bogged down in nonstop dithering.

Its starting to look like the 10 year is not a plan for the next 10 years but rather a plan that we'll reveal in 10 years.

Stark

murphaph wrote:

Blanch has a proper railway. Under the Dublin Rail Plan a massive increase in frequency would materialise. Even without the DRP, the new station at Spencer Dock will allow a very frequent service on this line.

The railway only serves the very south tip of Blanchardstown, by Castleknock though. It could do with an extra service going North from Castleknock station/Coolmine station.

BrianD

... and one that goes direct to my door as well. Blanch has sufficient rail resources and there is also the proposed spur to Dunboyne from Clonsilla that would serve the western parts of Dublin 15.

What this line needs is electrification and a the frequency of service that the other DART line enjoys. I have no doubt that if this line was "dartified" it would carry more passengers then the existing Malahide-Greystones line.

Going back on topic, one thing that does annoy me is the unfettered use by property developers of the term "proposed Luas line" and indicating Luas lines that are not even up for discussion or showing pictures of trams when the nearest one is kilometers away! Really, unless a tram line is in walking distance of the development it is not a transport option.

Thomond Pk

I totally agree it is entirely premature to use the term proposed in relation to any infrastructural project that has not cleared the route selection process at An Bord Pleanala.

Victor

Stark wrote:

The railway only serves the very south tip of Blanchardstown, by Castleknock though.

Also Coolmine and Clonsilla and soon Porterstown.

BrianD wrote:

... and one that goes direct to my door as well. Blanch has sufficient rail resources and there is also the proposed spur to Dunboyne from Clonsilla that would serve the western parts of Dublin 15.

I think a spur from Porterstown north through the centre of Blanchardstown to say Ballycoolin should deliver more passengers.

What this line needs is electrification and a the frequency of service that the other DART line enjoys. I have no doubt that if this line was "dartified" it would carry more passengers then the existing Malahide-Greystones line.

Not necessarily, quite a bit of the land around the Maynooth line is underdeveloped.

BrianD

Victor...as you go further out I would agree. However, the Maynooth line unlike the existing DART can draw passengers from "both sides" and it does pass through large densely populated areas this is why I believe it would carry more passengers than the coastal line.

murphaph

Victor wrote:

Not necessarily, quite a bit of the land around the Maynooth line is underdeveloped.

Don't you mean under development

See here for an aerial shot of development in progress along the line in D15. The land with topsoil removed is the tip of the iceberg and these won't be 3 bed semis wasting space-all medium density (typically 5-7 storey apartment blocks). Similar develpoments under way or finished at Porterstown and Ongar. All the land to the north of the line from Porterstown to Clonsilla is destined to become apartments. It will be a huge increase in the population of D15 and the railway is already hevily strained.

Thomond Pk

I agree the nature of developments in D15 has changed dramatically over the past 3-4 years with very little being developed at lower densities than duplex units and apartments being the norm. There is definitely a limit to the amount of development that the area can take in terms of existing rail capacity. It is clear that the road network is in crisis with the M50 from Finglas to Blanchardstown being particularly dangerous as traffic slows from 70mph to 10mph in the blink of an eye. What is required is that the mainline is Dart-ified and that the plans are drawn up quickly.

As a mad-cap idea what do people think of a local Luas network for Blanch say from the Station to Ongar and or Ballycoolin connecting on to Finglas?

Victor

BrianD wrote:

Victor...as you go further out I would agree. However, the Maynooth line unlike the existing DART can draw passengers from "both sides"

Yes and no. South of Clonsilla / Porterstown, around Phoenix Park Racecourse / Dunsink, at Glasnevin Cemetary and quite a few other places there is either nobody living(!) there or they are inaccessible to the railway.

Stark

As a mad-cap idea what do people think of a local Luas network for Blanch say from the Station to Ongar and or Ballycoolin connecting on to Finglas?

Well I'd love it At the moment where I'm living in Dubin 15 is nowhere near the Arrow stations.

Edit: Actually I think a line that passes goes from Clonsilla to Dunboyne would come pretty close to me and more importantly very close to where I work, giving me the option to move closer to the city.

Where's Porterstown by the way?

murphaph

Stark wrote:

Where's Porterstown by the way?

Here! Note the apartment complex (Woodbrook) under construction just south of the railway, it's now completed and Castlethorn Homes are locked in a battle wih Fingal's Planning Dept. over the height of their next development due to take place just west of Woodbrook. Woodbrook is 5 storeys and Castlethorn have been granted PP for the same again but want to go to 8 storeys. The station is proposed to go under the bridge I believe, and there is certainly loads of room for it. The field to the north of the proposed station site is now under development as apartments by another develper. Not sure of the eight but probably 5 storeys.

Fingal have grasped the whole planning thing in the last few years, tight controls on one-off housing and strong backing for high density living are the way to go if we ever want a 'proper' city and not just a sprawling town. I'd like to see the city contained-fill in the blanks like at the moment but then begin to push large scale demolition of swathes of 3 bed semis and replacement with apartment blocks. It's painful but if we don't Dublin will be a weird 'reversed' city with all the high density housing on the outskirts (Grange Road, D15, Adamstown, parts of Tallaght) and all the low density houses with cardens in the middle-strange stuff.

By the way-a Luas for Blanch is overkill for the forseeable, buses could do an adequate job of feeding along Blanchardstown Road South into Porterstown Station IMO. There are a good few very wide North-South roads crossing the N3 towards the railway-perfect for dedicated bus lanes.

strassenwolf

Well, maybe he's not going to be linking the lines after all...

This is from the Breaking news section of the indo website


Govt's transport plans delayed due to concerns about costs



07:43 Monday July 4th 2005



The Government's 10-year transport package has reportedly been delayed because the Department of Finance does not believe it can be achieved within its proposed budget of €20bn.
The ambitious plan was drawn up by Transport Minister Martin Cullen ahead of last December's budget.

Reports this morning said economists at the Department of Finance were taken aback by the scale of the proposals and were sceptical that they could be achieved for €20bn.

The costs of the scheme are reportedly being "tested" by the department before the measures are put to the cabinet for final approval.

spacetweek

strassenwolf wrote:

Reports this morning said economists at the Department of Finance were taken aback by the scale of the proposals and were sceptical that they could be achieved for €20bn.

Oh for God's sake! I know the cost will probably run over this but it's of vital national importance.

Make with the plan already.

murphaph wrote:

It will be a huge increase in the population of D15 and the railway is already hevily strained.

Really? I used the Arrow at Blanchardstown for the first time a few Sundays ago and the train and all stations were practically deserted. In fact most of the stations were closed completely, though you could still walk in and out. There was nowhere to buy a ticket so I didn't bother

spacetweek

Victor wrote:

quite a bit of the land around the Maynooth line is underdeveloped.

Isn't this a problem all around the rail lines in Dublin? Of course I know all those lines weren't built with commuting in mind, but all 3 of them suffer from underdeveloped catchment areas.

The Kildare line: Once you get past Clondalkin, it's all undeveloped on both sides, with the exception of the under-construction Adamstown area. But even this will only build on one side of the line.

The Maynooth line: The Phoenix Park and south of Clonsilla. The Dunboyne Spur will serve Ongar but I believe only the north side of this spur will be developed.

The coastal DART: With the exception of the city centre, Clontarf and Kilbarrack, fully half of the entire catchment of this line is out in Dublin Bay.

Development in the future should concentrate along the undeveloped sides of these existing lines.

murphaph

spacetweek wrote:

Really? I used the Arrow at Blanchardstown for the first time a few Sundays ago and the train and all stations were practically deserted. In fact most of the stations were closed completely, though you could still walk in and out. There was nowhere to buy a ticket so I didn't bother

I've highlighted the keyword in your post. Use it at 8 o'clock on a monday moning or 6 o'clock in the evening and when you'll see what I mean.

murphaph

spacetweek wrote:

The Maynooth line: The Phoenix Park and south of Clonsilla. The Dunboyne Spur will serve Ongar but I believe only the north side of this spur will be developed.

The Phoenix Park Racecourse is being built upon now (apartment blocks-5~6 storeys I think), walking distance to Ashtown Station.

I'd highly doubt that the southern side of the Dunboyne spur won't be built upon to be honest, long term anyway.

The entire stretch south of the line from Porterstown to Clonsilla will be apartments. It's already been approved by FCC for 5 storeys. The hold up on the start of development is as I've outlined above (planning battle over the wish for 8 storeys by developer).

Flukey

First they should build more Luas lines and then link them up. It might be handy, but it is not essential to link the two lines that we have. They should extend the green line right out to connect to the Bray line. They should do a M50-style line around the city from Bray to the airport, linking the whole industrial belt around the city. You could then say come from Arklow to Bray and get a train there direct out to Sandyford or Tallaght or Colondalkin etc., without having to go near the city.

There is what looks like a bed for a railway line that is grown over, which seems to run from Broadstone and up through Phibsboro, just past the western end of Dalymount Park. It only looks wide enough to take one line. Is it an old rail line and where does it go to?

murphaph

Flukey wrote:

There is what looks like a bed for a railway line that is grown over, which seems to run from Broadstone and up through Phibsboro, just past the western end of Dalymount Park. It only looks wide enough to take one line. Is it an old rail line and where does it go to?

That's the old Midland & Great Western Railway. It ran from Broadstone Station (now a Bus Eireann/BAC Depot) to the West. The alignment is plenty wide for 2 tracks but it really has little use unless a tunnel is bored from Broadstone south under the city. It would be a waste to hand over yet another former heavy rail alignment to the tram (the Harcourt line should be DART now, not a tram line). It forms part of 'platform for change' where a metro line is supposed to run from the airport, via Finglas and Broadstone, under ground to Ranelagh and continuing along the current Green Line Luas (will never realistically happen).

gurramok

murphaph wrote:

I've highlighted the keyword in your post. Use it at 8 o'clock on a monday moning or 6 o'clock in the evening and when you'll see what I mean.

Agreed, i've used it myself when i had to commute to town a couple years ago. Trains are so dangerously full that i don't know how the local Ashtown station can cope any more with the new development called earlswood which is half up and running.
If they bother to put ticket machines in the stations at all times and not just put a cashier on in the early daily morning, it would encourage more people to travel by train in that area.

Propellerhead

strassenwolf wrote:

Reports this morning said economists at the Department of Finance were taken aback by the scale of the proposals and were sceptical that they could be achieved for €20bn.

The costs of the scheme are reportedly being "tested" by the department before the measures are put to the cabinet for final approval.

Indeed. I wouldn't let Finance "Economists" anywhere near a transport project. If they had their way we wouldn't have DART, let alone Luas. How is it that Road projects can overrun massively on time and costs and nary a peep out of them?

I believe as well that there is political mileage to be had from the apparent abandoning of the Clonsilla - Navan railway and its replacement with a truncated branch that may end conveniently near where the M3 will be tolled.

Who benefits from the abandonment of rail plans and their substitution with grandiose road plans that are far more destructive of the environment?