Bank of Ireland - Evergreen fund

Richie6904 wrote: »

also do remember that these are long term investments not something you just throw money in and take out when ever you like, their minimum term for any kind of return should be like 5 years.
If you dont really need the money leave it in there and in a few years time if/when things improve take a look at it then and see how its going.

I'd reiterate what Richie says. The Evergreen regular savings is a long term savings plan with a 5-7 recommended time frame.
Yes thinks have declined but you're buying units now at much lower prices.

And without sounding too flippant did you read the fine print of your documents when you received them, as it would have stated on a number of occassions your capital is not guaranteed.

sofireland wrote: »

And without sounding too flippant did you read the fine print of your documents when you received them, as it would have stated on a number of occassions your capital is not guaranteed.

I think though in all fairness that for the most part these Funds were sold as very safe investments with little risk attached. It was in my case and I too was duped into buying into the Fund by a BOI Financial Adviser. I deposited approximately 21k euro in October 2006 as a lump sum and my total contributions to date including afore mentioned sum is a few hundred shy of 30k euro. Yet it is now only worth approx 19.4k euro. Without having a complete breakdown it would appear that the Fund is quite heavily invested in Bank shares. When I called in for a meeting with the BOI Financial Adviser (a different one from the man who sold me the poilcy) a few weeks back he re-itirated that it was a relatively safe investment. When I questioned how his he could possibly qualify said statement he suggested that over time such bank shares are relatively stable. From my point of view and without knowing a terrible lot about Financial markets Bank shares just cannot be described as stable. Take BOI shares for example, down from 15 euro per share a year ago to less than 1 euro per share today. I may be totally missing the point or I may be overlooking something but if that is stable what would constitute unstable?

Unlike a previous poster I am fortunate enough in that at the moment I can leave the money sit where it is presently. However, if house prices continue to fall next year (as is being suggested) I would have a view to getting on the property ladder for which this money ar at least part of it together with other savings may be needed as a deposit. Does anybody in the know have any insight into when this Fund may be expected to pick up again/ will it pick up again in the 5 to 7 year time frame (the time frame which has previously being suggested as the number of years an investor should look at to make a return)? It wasn't as if I was getting any straight answers for the BOI Financial Adviser.

Any advice/ insight welcomed and appreciated.

johndaman66 wrote: »

I think though in all fairness that for the most part these Funds were sold as very safe investments with little risk attached. It was in my case and I too was duped into buying into the Fund by a BOI Financial Adviser. I deposited approximately 21k euro in October 2006 as a lump sum and my total contributions to date including afore mentioned sum is a few hundred shy of 30k euro. Yet it is now only worth approx 19.4k euro. Without having a complete breakdown it would appear that the Fund is quite heavily invested in Bank shares. When I called in for a meeting with the BOI Financial Adviser (a different one from the man who sold me the poilcy) a few weeks back he re-itirated that it was a relatively safe investment. When I questioned how his he could possibly qualify said statement he suggested that over time such bank shares are relatively stable. From my point of view and without knowing a terrible lot about Financial markets Bank shares just cannot be described as stable. Take BOI shares for example, down from 15 euro per share a year ago to less than 1 euro per share today. I may be totally missing the point or I may be overlooking something but if that is stable what would constitute unstable?

Unlike a previous poster I am fortunate enough in that at the moment I can leave the money sit where it is presently. However, if house prices continue to fall next year (as is being suggested) I would have a view to getting on the property ladder for which this money ar at least part of it together with other savings may be needed as a deposit. Does anybody in the know have any insight into when this Fund may be expected to pick up again/ will it pick up again in the 5 to 7 year time frame (the time frame which has previously being suggested as the number of years an investor should look at to make a return)? It wasn't as if I was getting any straight answers for the BOI Financial Adviser.

Any advice/ insight welcomed and appreciated.

Finance 101 - Equity lies below all other sources of finance in the capital structure. You should have educated yourself about this simple fact before committing €21,000+

You say you were "duped" into buying this product - I doubt it. I assume you signed something and I further assume that you didn't read it fully. So then, who is to blame ? The advisor . . . or you ? I would say you.

It is your responsibility to take care of your own money. Handing over €21,000 - €30,000 without fully understanding the product and knowing the potential downside is (in my opinion) about as bad as it gets when it come to financial investment.

When you buy shares you . . . are . . . buying . . . risk. Simple. If you didn't want risk you should have stuck with cash or fixed income products. To turn around after it didn't work out and blame your advisor is just childish imo.

I am sick of hearing people blame everyone else (the Govt, the banks, short-sellers, the Americans, Anglo, Bertie, the Developers etc.etc.etc) for where we are when it is our own fault as a people collectively. Hopefully this downturn will stand to educate us with regard to our own finances and stop us from trusting the monkeys that work in BIAM, Davys, Merrion etc from 'minding' our money for us. Trust me, I know a ton of these people and the majority of them are donkeys who know little more than the man on the street and just blindly follow systems already in place.

If you bought a house and lost money on it, it's your fault - your decision, your investment, your money - your fault. The same is true for anyone who bought equities and has lost money. Take repsonsibility for your own actions and get out of the culture of blame that is building up around us. We all gleefully hung on the coat-tails of FF, the developers and the banks when things were good and now when things turn sour we want to point the finger and blame them even though it was our own greed, short-sightedness and largesse that got us to where we are today.



PS - I do not work for BIAM, am not a financial advisor and do not have any personal reason to stick up for BOi advisors but I am just sick of this culture of blame I see surrounding me recently




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PeakOutput wrote: »

i have heard that of the banks in ireland at the moment bank of ireland is the least likely to go under completely and the most likely to recover almost completely when this all evens itself out and it will even itself out eventually, it just could be a year or two down the road

i would of said that aib were the least likely to go down but was presented with a very convincing argument as to why boi is the most safe right now. if i had the money id be buying up boi shares to be honest

also if i was handing over so much money id be going threw the fine print with a comb and more than likely getting a few other independant eyes to do the same

Dunno PeakOutput... Not saying this advice is incorrect but with all due respect a lot of people have lost a hell of a lot of money due to idle speculation. No doubt a lot of people that could afford to take the hit but definately many who cant really either. Probably should not have invested myself but while I am by no means minted I am in a situation where I will not immediately need the money so am in a position to ride out the storm so as to speak and hope for the best. Without doubt I knew there was risk attached but I don't think many even in the know would have predicted a market meltdown of the magnitude that has unfolded in recent months. When I was in with the BOI Financial adviser, which was a few days after the BOI share price hit a low of 83c he told me a friend of his had bought a lot of shares at 7 euro a piece on the basis that the share price couldn't really go any lower. Surley hes not too happy a bunny now about that.

Does your souce have any sound basis for making such a prediction? Does he know something the public at large are unaware off? I know I wont be exposing myself to any further volatility in bank shares based on speculation. Even a few weeks back a large number of people were recommending investing in Anglo shares. Wouldn't have being too wise I think as their current share price (something like 23c a piece at last close of the markets I believe) makes them look very expensive at circa 1 euro a share.

For those interested I requested and received a statement in the last few days indicating the movement in relation to holdings and asset splits over the last 15 months in this Fund. It notes that and quoting the statement

"The fund is no longer heavily involved in direct Bank Equity. The property content remains reasonably constant at 26%. The reason the Commercial/Retail Property element has not been reduced is purely because we have no intention of currently selling any of these properties in the present market situation combined with the recent devaluation of the UK based properties due to Sterlings current exchange level. As this policy is a regular premium policy you have being purchasing units at far lower values than they had previously been on offer for. We believe the equities that we now hold in the fund will recover over the next three year period if there are no further negative occurences within the stock market over this period".

Now I won't comment on the changes made to the investment strategies as per above because I'm not in a position to. One of the things I would be unsure of and without knowing when the Fund closed out of the various holdings but would a huge loss have being realized in the AIB and Bank of Ireland shares. Would it have being more appropriate to hang onto these in anticipation of an upswing in the markets. Anybody have any comments on this?

To give a breakdown of the asset split as and of the most recent date as per the statement, being 31st of December 2008: -

Asset Split as at the 31st of December, 2008:-
Equities 44%
Property 24%
Fixed Interest 23%
Cash 9%

Equity split as at the 31st of December, 2008:-
North American Equities 26%
Euroland Equities 22%
Non-Euro Equities 12%
UK Equities 12%
Pacific Basin Equities 12%
Irish Equities 10%
Japanese Equities 6%

Top 10 Equities (in alphabetical order)
CRH
HSBC
Nestle
Nokia
Novartis
Roche
Ryanair
Telefonica
Total
Vodafone

John7610 wrote: »

Anyone know how this fund is doing lately? has it improved or has the unit price continued to decline???

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news John but it hasn't improved by any great degree in the past few months. I have gotten into the habit of sending of an email at the start of every month to get a valuation on my own portfolio. From start of May to start of June it had gone down very slightly (allbeit absolutely nothing worth talking about). From start to June to start of July it was down a small bit more. A bit furstrated as it would appear that other investment Funds are making a bit of a rebound generally.

John7610 wrote: »

Cheerz man, Ya thought that, hav lost heavily in this investment, but I am assured by bank managers that that the fund will recover over the long term period so just going to keep contributing and hopefully a recovery of some sort will appear in the future.

Your welcome John. Being quite honest I'd take whatever the Bank of Ireland financial advisor says to you with a grain of salt. They will say whats in their own interests too and obviously if lots of people encashed their investments they would be loosing out considerably in management fees. Think its no harm to do your own bit of research and keep on top of things or certainly get an unbiased and relaible second opinion at the least if you have a sizeable amount invested.

Having said that I would imagine (hope as well no doubt) that it would make a recovery in the future. I wouldn't hold my breath though and certainly wouldn't expect a big jump in six months something. You wouldn't necessairly need to keep contributing though. No doubt though that your periodic contributions are now buying a lot of units in the Fund. My own situation is that I get a loyalty bonus at the end of this year if I keep up my contributions until then so will do so for moment. After that I will consider my options though and may leave the money sit there. There is no point flogging a dead horse either.

In addition to the equities and commodoties which you mention John the portfolio is also made up of property, fixed interest investments and cash. The breakdown in asset splits which I was given as and at the 31st of Decemeber, 2008 is as follows*: -

Equities 44%
Property 24%
Fixed Intersst 23%
Cash 9%

*Portfolio mix may have and I'm sure has changed since 31/12/2008.


As can be seen a considrable proportion is invested in property and predominantly UK property as far as I am aware. I don't like coming across too much of a peasmist but I don't think I would hold out too much hope for an improvement in property values, whatever about equities. Perhaps all the same I have narrowed the scope of this assessment too closely to our immediate situation here in Ireland though without looking at the wider picture. Thankfully only 10% of the equity mix is made up of Irish equities as I thought it would have being condiderably more.

I think that you are right though John in that you are holding tough and riding out the storm so as the speak. I'm sure (and hoping) the four to five year period you mention should be long enough to see some sort of turn around. You are lucky too in that you are afforded the opportunity to sit on your investment. I'm sure there are older people who are depending on the Fund to carry them into their retirement or even people starting families and building houses and what not.

Sure 3k is a big loss to bear b2homework but no doubt people are nursing greater losses than that too. Don't get me wrong, not trying to make little of your loss and it is all relative to what you can afford to lose, your age, risk appetite and other such factors. I'm sure you worked hard for the money and to look at your statement and see your investment evaporating is not easy.

On the plus side (if you could call it that) other investment Funds have lost a hell of a lot more in percentage terms and over the years the Evergreen Fund has being a relatively stable and is a diverse investment. Whether you encash your investment now or wait in anticipation of a turnaround is your own call at the end of the day no doubt. However, afore mentioned factors such as age, risk appetite and whether or not you will need the money in the near future will all have a bearing. Remember too that things may get worse before they get better...nobody can really tell...who predicted precisely the major downturn towards the end of 08' besides those who predict calamity all the time (and as such their prediction will be correct at some point)?

The Fund has moved out of Bank shares to a great extent (or so I have being told by BOI) and no doubt major losses have being realized by the Fund in doing so. A look at how the portfolio held by the Fund as at 31.12.2008 which was previously outlined in the thread would seem to suggest more stable investments that one could expect to make a relatively small but stable return over time.... Then again bank shares seemed a wise and stable investment to me in 2006.

To recap and answer your initial question I don't think anyone on here can tell you if you should encash your investment or not without knowing more about your circumstances. It is also an option too that you part encash it. One thing for sure though if its causing you sleepless nights and possible future losses are causing you misery you are best to encash it. I'm not a qualified financial advisor or anything of the sort so please don't take my rambling on as gospel or anything but hope what I said this helps a little!