Bank of Ireland - Evergreen fund

xw2lj9uspm1eyh

Im currently in the bank of ireland everygreen fund which i pay 500 a month into it to my horror when i rang them last week i have 14,500 euro in it as opposed to the 21,000 when i applied for it the guy said it would have little or no risk and i should make 10% on my savings at the end of ii was just wondering what to do i heard on the radio today that the boi shares are at its lowest ever should i bail before i lose it all thanks in advance for ya advice :pac:

tytlak

Evergreen fund is a unit linked fund where your capital is not guaranteed. BofI adviser should not have said that it had no risk. It is a balanced managed fund but the risk is still there in spite of diversification of its assess (blue chips, property, cash, bonds). It was regarded as pretty reliable fund in the normal times and safer to purely equity/property funds. However today's situation is one in the century.

To be honest with you probably even experts dont know and dont understand the situation. 85 cents for BofI shares looks like a sheer madness. There must be things going on that we know nothing about. From 18 euro in Feb last year to 85 cents now. I dont buy that it is only beacuse of recession and construction slowdown.

PS Evergreen dint lose that much at the end. Equity funds are down more than 50%, not to mention geared ones.Imagine someone bought BofI shares last year for 15 euro a share, now they are 15 times less!! Evergeen fund although down still not that bad in this comparison. It is because it was diversified and in normal times it should bring the return above inflation rate. If you have a smartchoice with BofI Life, take into account the charge of 5% on each regular premium and 1.5% annual fund management fee.

KillerShamrock

also do remember that these are long term investments not something you just throw money in and take out when ever you like, their minimum term for any kind of return should be like 5 years.
If you dont really need the money leave it in there and in a few years time if/when things improve take a look at it then and see how its going.

On a side note isnt the evergreen guaranteed fund not sure about this.

stepbar

tytlak wrote: »

Evergreen fund is a unit linked fund where your capital is not guaranteed. BofI adviser should not have said that it had no risk. It is a balanced managed fund but the risk is still there in spite of diversification of its assess (blue chips, property, cash, bonds). It was regarded as pretty reliable fund in the normal times and safer to purely equity/property funds. However today's situation is one in the century.

To be honest with you probably even experts dont know and dont understand the situation. 85 cents for BofI shares looks like a sheer madness. There must be things going on that we know nothing about. From 18 euro in Feb last year to 85 cents now. I dont buy that it is only beacuse of recession and construction slowdown.

PS Evergreen dint lose that much at the end. Equity funds are down more than 50%, not to mention geared ones.Imagine someone bought BofI shares last year for 15 euro a share, now they are 15 times less!! Evergeen fund although down still not that bad in this comparison. It is because it was diversified and in normal times it should bring the return above inflation rate. If you have a smartchoice with BofI Life, take into account the charge of 5% on each regular premium and 1.5% annual fund management fee.

Your right, the evergreen fund is not guarenteed. However, there's a guarenteed version of which the initial capital is only guarenteed after 6 years!

As for the BOI share price, the final nail in the cross was the announcement that the dividend was suspended until further notice. When you hear people on Grafton St talking about the Bank of Ireland share price you know things aren't just right. It's madness.

M.A.K

Hi! I have just read your post and was wondering did you get the situation sorted? I just went to my bank today and found out I am in the very same situation. When I first went to the financial advisor I was not made aware that this was not guaranteed and was under the impression my money was secure. Is there anyone else out there that this has happened to? :mad:

sofireland

Richie6904 wrote: »

also do remember that these are long term investments not something you just throw money in and take out when ever you like, their minimum term for any kind of return should be like 5 years.
If you dont really need the money leave it in there and in a few years time if/when things improve take a look at it then and see how its going.

I'd reiterate what Richie says. The Evergreen regular savings is a long term savings plan with a 5-7 recommended time frame.
Yes thinks have declined but you're buying units now at much lower prices.

And without sounding too flippant did you read the fine print of your documents when you received them, as it would have stated on a number of occassions your capital is not guaranteed.

Toots

At the risk of repeating what the others have said, the Evergreen fund is not capital guaranteed, however it is considered a lower risk product than say some of the 'Geared' funds. If you don't need the money urgently, leave it where it is. These funds are designed for long term investments (5-7 years) and the theory is that even if there is an economic downturn, the longer term will give time for the plan to recover. How long ago did you take out the policy?

johndaman66

sofireland wrote: »

And without sounding too flippant did you read the fine print of your documents when you received them, as it would have stated on a number of occassions your capital is not guaranteed.

I think though in all fairness that for the most part these Funds were sold as very safe investments with little risk attached. It was in my case and I too was duped into buying into the Fund by a BOI Financial Adviser. I deposited approximately 21k euro in October 2006 as a lump sum and my total contributions to date including afore mentioned sum is a few hundred shy of 30k euro. Yet it is now only worth approx 19.4k euro. Without having a complete breakdown it would appear that the Fund is quite heavily invested in Bank shares. When I called in for a meeting with the BOI Financial Adviser (a different one from the man who sold me the poilcy) a few weeks back he re-itirated that it was a relatively safe investment. When I questioned how his he could possibly qualify said statement he suggested that over time such bank shares are relatively stable. From my point of view and without knowing a terrible lot about Financial markets Bank shares just cannot be described as stable. Take BOI shares for example, down from 15 euro per share a year ago to less than 1 euro per share today. I may be totally missing the point or I may be overlooking something but if that is stable what would constitute unstable?

Unlike a previous poster I am fortunate enough in that at the moment I can leave the money sit where it is presently. However, if house prices continue to fall next year (as is being suggested) I would have a view to getting on the property ladder for which this money ar at least part of it together with other savings may be needed as a deposit. Does anybody in the know have any insight into when this Fund may be expected to pick up again/ will it pick up again in the 5 to 7 year time frame (the time frame which has previously being suggested as the number of years an investor should look at to make a return)? It wasn't as if I was getting any straight answers for the BOI Financial Adviser.

Any advice/ insight welcomed and appreciated.

pocketdooz

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pocketdooz

johndaman66 wrote: »

I think though in all fairness that for the most part these Funds were sold as very safe investments with little risk attached. It was in my case and I too was duped into buying into the Fund by a BOI Financial Adviser. I deposited approximately 21k euro in October 2006 as a lump sum and my total contributions to date including afore mentioned sum is a few hundred shy of 30k euro. Yet it is now only worth approx 19.4k euro. Without having a complete breakdown it would appear that the Fund is quite heavily invested in Bank shares. When I called in for a meeting with the BOI Financial Adviser (a different one from the man who sold me the poilcy) a few weeks back he re-itirated that it was a relatively safe investment. When I questioned how his he could possibly qualify said statement he suggested that over time such bank shares are relatively stable. From my point of view and without knowing a terrible lot about Financial markets Bank shares just cannot be described as stable. Take BOI shares for example, down from 15 euro per share a year ago to less than 1 euro per share today. I may be totally missing the point or I may be overlooking something but if that is stable what would constitute unstable?

Unlike a previous poster I am fortunate enough in that at the moment I can leave the money sit where it is presently. However, if house prices continue to fall next year (as is being suggested) I would have a view to getting on the property ladder for which this money ar at least part of it together with other savings may be needed as a deposit. Does anybody in the know have any insight into when this Fund may be expected to pick up again/ will it pick up again in the 5 to 7 year time frame (the time frame which has previously being suggested as the number of years an investor should look at to make a return)? It wasn't as if I was getting any straight answers for the BOI Financial Adviser.

Any advice/ insight welcomed and appreciated.

Finance 101 - Equity lies below all other sources of finance in the capital structure. You should have educated yourself about this simple fact before committing €21,000+

You say you were "duped" into buying this product - I doubt it. I assume you signed something and I further assume that you didn't read it fully. So then, who is to blame ? The advisor . . . or you ? I would say you.

It is your responsibility to take care of your own money. Handing over €21,000 - €30,000 without fully understanding the product and knowing the potential downside is (in my opinion) about as bad as it gets when it come to financial investment.

When you buy shares you . . . are . . . buying . . . risk. Simple. If you didn't want risk you should have stuck with cash or fixed income products. To turn around after it didn't work out and blame your advisor is just childish imo.

I am sick of hearing people blame everyone else (the Govt, the banks, short-sellers, the Americans, Anglo, Bertie, the Developers etc.etc.etc) for where we are when it is our own fault as a people collectively. Hopefully this downturn will stand to educate us with regard to our own finances and stop us from trusting the monkeys that work in BIAM, Davys, Merrion etc from 'minding' our money for us. Trust me, I know a ton of these people and the majority of them are donkeys who know little more than the man on the street and just blindly follow systems already in place.

If you bought a house and lost money on it, it's your fault - your decision, your investment, your money - your fault. The same is true for anyone who bought equities and has lost money. Take repsonsibility for your own actions and get out of the culture of blame that is building up around us. We all gleefully hung on the coat-tails of FF, the developers and the banks when things were good and now when things turn sour we want to point the finger and blame them even though it was our own greed, short-sightedness and largesse that got us to where we are today.



PS - I do not work for BIAM, am not a financial advisor and do not have any personal reason to stick up for BOi advisors but I am just sick of this culture of blame I see surrounding me recently




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PeakOutput

i have heard that of the banks in ireland at the moment bank of ireland is the least likely to go under completely and the most likely to recover almost completely when this all evens itself out and it will even itself out eventually, it just could be a year or two down the road

i would of said that aib were the least likely to go down but was presented with a very convincing argument as to why boi is the most safe right now. if i had the money id be buying up boi shares to be honest

also if i was handing over so much money id be going threw the fine print with a comb and more than likely getting a few other independant eyes to do the same

johndaman66

PeakOutput wrote: »

i have heard that of the banks in ireland at the moment bank of ireland is the least likely to go under completely and the most likely to recover almost completely when this all evens itself out and it will even itself out eventually, it just could be a year or two down the road

i would of said that aib were the least likely to go down but was presented with a very convincing argument as to why boi is the most safe right now. if i had the money id be buying up boi shares to be honest

also if i was handing over so much money id be going threw the fine print with a comb and more than likely getting a few other independant eyes to do the same

Dunno PeakOutput... Not saying this advice is incorrect but with all due respect a lot of people have lost a hell of a lot of money due to idle speculation. No doubt a lot of people that could afford to take the hit but definately many who cant really either. Probably should not have invested myself but while I am by no means minted I am in a situation where I will not immediately need the money so am in a position to ride out the storm so as to speak and hope for the best. Without doubt I knew there was risk attached but I don't think many even in the know would have predicted a market meltdown of the magnitude that has unfolded in recent months. When I was in with the BOI Financial adviser, which was a few days after the BOI share price hit a low of 83c he told me a friend of his had bought a lot of shares at 7 euro a piece on the basis that the share price couldn't really go any lower. Surley hes not too happy a bunny now about that.

Does your souce have any sound basis for making such a prediction? Does he know something the public at large are unaware off? I know I wont be exposing myself to any further volatility in bank shares based on speculation. Even a few weeks back a large number of people were recommending investing in Anglo shares. Wouldn't have being too wise I think as their current share price (something like 23c a piece at last close of the markets I believe) makes them look very expensive at circa 1 euro a share.

2x4

I too am nursing similar percentage losses on a larger sum invested in UK Select Commercial Fund with First Active. I have switched to a low risk fund and hope to stem the losses. One thing that is becoming clear is that the economy is in an unprecedented situation which may last some considerable time. Therefore any opinons or advice regarding investments are no longer valid in this new situation.

johndaman66

For those interested I requested and received a statement in the last few days indicating the movement in relation to holdings and asset splits over the last 15 months in this Fund. It notes that and quoting the statement

"The fund is no longer heavily involved in direct Bank Equity. The property content remains reasonably constant at 26%. The reason the Commercial/Retail Property element has not been reduced is purely because we have no intention of currently selling any of these properties in the present market situation combined with the recent devaluation of the UK based properties due to Sterlings current exchange level. As this policy is a regular premium policy you have being purchasing units at far lower values than they had previously been on offer for. We believe the equities that we now hold in the fund will recover over the next three year period if there are no further negative occurences within the stock market over this period".

Now I won't comment on the changes made to the investment strategies as per above because I'm not in a position to. One of the things I would be unsure of and without knowing when the Fund closed out of the various holdings but would a huge loss have being realized in the AIB and Bank of Ireland shares. Would it have being more appropriate to hang onto these in anticipation of an upswing in the markets. Anybody have any comments on this?

To give a breakdown of the asset split as and of the most recent date as per the statement, being 31st of December 2008: -

Asset Split as at the 31st of December, 2008:-
Equities 44%
Property 24%
Fixed Interest 23%
Cash 9%

Equity split as at the 31st of December, 2008:-
North American Equities 26%
Euroland Equities 22%
Non-Euro Equities 12%
UK Equities 12%
Pacific Basin Equities 12%
Irish Equities 10%
Japanese Equities 6%

Top 10 Equities (in alphabetical order)
CRH
HSBC
Nestle
Nokia
Novartis
Roche
Ryanair
Telefonica
Total
Vodafone

John Mason

Dont mention that evergreen fund to me.

i took out the policy 4.5 years ago with a lump sum of €7,000.00.

i made it very clear to the finance advisor guy that i didnt not want a situation where i could lose anything from the principal, he told me it was a low risk investment and that i wouldnt lose anything from the balance.

then i get a statement saying my policy was worth €4,000.00. i nearly died, this was my new roof fund. anyway, i phoned up to see if this was a mistake and that i had clearly stated that i didnt want to be in a situation where i could lose any of my principal. the girl on the phone laughed and said "you cant prove what was said in a meeting 4 years ago"



i was nearly sick on the phone and just demanded my money back now

BOI are absolutely the worse bank i have ever dealt with

i know you are going to say, its my fault for not reading the small print. I dont know anything about financial stuff, so i thought i would be safe going to an advisor, i told him everything i wanted for my very small investment and i thought, i had no reason to believe he would lie to me

Daragh101

pink fluffy bunny wrote: »

Dont mention that evergreen fund to me.

i took out the policy 4.5 years ago with a lump sum of €7,000.00.

i made it very clear to the finance advisor guy that i didnt not want a situation where i could lose anything from the principal, he told me it was a low risk investment and that i wouldnt lose anything from the balance.

then i get a statement saying my policy was worth €4,000.00. i nearly died, this was my new roof fund. anyway, i phoned up to see if this was a mistake and that i had clearly stated that i didnt want to be in a situation where i could lose any of my principal. the girl on the phone laughed and said "you cant prove what was said in a meeting 4 years ago"



i was nearly sick on the phone and just demanded my money back now

BOI are absolutely the worse bank i have ever dealt with

i know you are going to say, its my fault for not reading the small print. I dont know anything about financial stuff, so i thought i would be safe going to an advisor, i told him everything i wanted for my very small investment and i thought, i had no reason to believe he would lie to me

could be worse mate!!!!!!!

DRice

pink fluffy bunny wrote: »

Dont mention that evergreen fund to me.

i took out the policy 4.5 years ago with a lump sum of €7,000.00.

i made it very clear to the finance advisor guy that i didnt not want a situation where i could lose anything from the principal, he told me it was a low risk investment and that i wouldnt lose anything from the balance.

then i get a statement saying my policy was worth €4,000.00. i nearly died, this was my new roof fund. anyway, i phoned up to see if this was a mistake and that i had clearly stated that i didnt want to be in a situation where i could lose any of my principal. the girl on the phone laughed and said "you cant prove what was said in a meeting 4 years ago"



i was nearly sick on the phone and just demanded my money back now

BOI are absolutely the worse bank i have ever dealt with

i know you are going to say, its my fault for not reading the small print. I dont know anything about financial stuff, so i thought i would be safe going to an advisor, i told him everything i wanted for my very small investment and i thought, i had no reason to believe he would lie to me

Financial Advisors that say that a client WILL get their money back on a non guaranteed investment should get their licence revoked

stepbar

Look, there are plenty of people who've lost money speculating on funds etc. I invested 7k in the Bloxham Geared High Yield Fund 70:30 split between Irish / International Stocks etc. The fund is now worth 1.8k, 2 yrs later. I picked the product myself, knew the risks involved and was comfortable with same. Such is life.

If anything this recession might wake some people up to be more proactive about money management.

amacca

Financial advisors who work for a bank shouldnt really be called financial advisors at all. theyre sales people. If I worked for bank of Ireland and got my commission from selling boi related policies Id be unlikely to recommend any other non boi products to a customer even if they were superior.

If people really dont want to research their own investments (and I can understand why not given the amount of obfuscation surrounding some investment products) then you need an independant financial advisor who stands to get a commission of the profits he makes for you the customer and not a commission from the investment product he sells you on the day because if its the latter case he or she will probably try to sell you whatever is most beneficial for him or her.

Agree though that if any of these advisors lied about the security of the investment or tried to pressurize people into buying certain products then they should be brought to book.

Bearcat

yes I feel sorry for those running capital losses but we are all in the mire. The evergreen fund was always known to be one of those safe funds aka known as the nevergreen fund with its very conservative investements...alas how things have changed.

dazman2250

pink fluffy bunny, you yourself say that you were told it was a LOW RISK INVESTMENT, not a no-risk investment. Obviously in times past the odds on the fund losing so much value would have been pretty low, but in all fairness what are you a child? If your giving someone 7 grand then you have to read the small print, otherwise its your own fault the investment has lost value, people need to stop blaming the banks and everyone else, the bank didnt lose your money, you did through bad investing.

Bearcat

dazman, taking the high moral standard here re taking a bad investment is a little general. If anyone though the economy including the world economy was to go so badly down the drain, everyone would have remained in cash . If anything a 30% drop in the value of a fund is actually doing ok-ish considering the factors that have imploded.

Each and every one of us have made bad investments and only those that stood still, who had no home, cars, bonds, shares etc and only just had a bag of cash are the wise folk..... me thinks there are very few of them.

John7610

Anyone know how this fund is doing lately? has it improved or has the unit price continued to decline???

johndaman66

John7610 wrote: »

Anyone know how this fund is doing lately? has it improved or has the unit price continued to decline???

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news John but it hasn't improved by any great degree in the past few months. I have gotten into the habit of sending of an email at the start of every month to get a valuation on my own portfolio. From start of May to start of June it had gone down very slightly (allbeit absolutely nothing worth talking about). From start to June to start of July it was down a small bit more. A bit furstrated as it would appear that other investment Funds are making a bit of a rebound generally.

John7610

Cheerz man, Ya thought that, hav lost heavily in this investment, but I am assured by bank managers that that the fund will recover over the long term period so just going to keep contributing and hopefully a recovery of some sort will appear in the future.

johndaman66

John7610 wrote: »

Cheerz man, Ya thought that, hav lost heavily in this investment, but I am assured by bank managers that that the fund will recover over the long term period so just going to keep contributing and hopefully a recovery of some sort will appear in the future.

Your welcome John. Being quite honest I'd take whatever the Bank of Ireland financial advisor says to you with a grain of salt. They will say whats in their own interests too and obviously if lots of people encashed their investments they would be loosing out considerably in management fees. Think its no harm to do your own bit of research and keep on top of things or certainly get an unbiased and relaible second opinion at the least if you have a sizeable amount invested.

Having said that I would imagine (hope as well no doubt) that it would make a recovery in the future. I wouldn't hold my breath though and certainly wouldn't expect a big jump in six months something. You wouldn't necessairly need to keep contributing though. No doubt though that your periodic contributions are now buying a lot of units in the Fund. My own situation is that I get a loyalty bonus at the end of this year if I keep up my contributions until then so will do so for moment. After that I will consider my options though and may leave the money sit there. There is no point flogging a dead horse either.

John7610

Ya, I found out this the hard way, they always have invested interests!
I am due the loyalty bonus in January, however it is a paltry sum to what I have lost, I am expecting the fund to recover for me in the long term 4-5 years. The fund has a wide distribution of equites, commodities, and global stocks and shares make up so when the recession finally ends, things should pick up. I wont be checking it every month as I would only be pulling my hair out but I will not encash the investment as I will defenitly garantee the loss and I dont need the money at the moment. Thanks for your advice anyway.

johndaman66

In addition to the equities and commodoties which you mention John the portfolio is also made up of property, fixed interest investments and cash. The breakdown in asset splits which I was given as and at the 31st of Decemeber, 2008 is as follows*: -

Equities 44%
Property 24%
Fixed Intersst 23%
Cash 9%

*Portfolio mix may have and I'm sure has changed since 31/12/2008.


As can be seen a considrable proportion is invested in property and predominantly UK property as far as I am aware. I don't like coming across too much of a peasmist but I don't think I would hold out too much hope for an improvement in property values, whatever about equities. Perhaps all the same I have narrowed the scope of this assessment too closely to our immediate situation here in Ireland though without looking at the wider picture. Thankfully only 10% of the equity mix is made up of Irish equities as I thought it would have being condiderably more.

I think that you are right though John in that you are holding tough and riding out the storm so as the speak. I'm sure (and hoping) the four to five year period you mention should be long enough to see some sort of turn around. You are lucky too in that you are afforded the opportunity to sit on your investment. I'm sure there are older people who are depending on the Fund to carry them into their retirement or even people starting families and building houses and what not.

b2homework

The so-called 'smart choice' turned out not to be for me too.
What did you do in the end with the evergreen fund?
I got my annual statement and I'm down 3,000. I stopped putting any money in over a year ago but it's still dropping. Wonder if i should leave it there or not?

johndaman66

Sure 3k is a big loss to bear b2homework but no doubt people are nursing greater losses than that too. Don't get me wrong, not trying to make little of your loss and it is all relative to what you can afford to lose, your age, risk appetite and other such factors. I'm sure you worked hard for the money and to look at your statement and see your investment evaporating is not easy.

On the plus side (if you could call it that) other investment Funds have lost a hell of a lot more in percentage terms and over the years the Evergreen Fund has being a relatively stable and is a diverse investment. Whether you encash your investment now or wait in anticipation of a turnaround is your own call at the end of the day no doubt. However, afore mentioned factors such as age, risk appetite and whether or not you will need the money in the near future will all have a bearing. Remember too that things may get worse before they get better...nobody can really tell...who predicted precisely the major downturn towards the end of 08' besides those who predict calamity all the time (and as such their prediction will be correct at some point)?

The Fund has moved out of Bank shares to a great extent (or so I have being told by BOI) and no doubt major losses have being realized by the Fund in doing so. A look at how the portfolio held by the Fund as at 31.12.2008 which was previously outlined in the thread would seem to suggest more stable investments that one could expect to make a relatively small but stable return over time.... Then again bank shares seemed a wise and stable investment to me in 2006.

To recap and answer your initial question I don't think anyone on here can tell you if you should encash your investment or not without knowing more about your circumstances. It is also an option too that you part encash it. One thing for sure though if its causing you sleepless nights and possible future losses are causing you misery you are best to encash it. I'm not a qualified financial advisor or anything of the sort so please don't take my rambling on as gospel or anything but hope what I said this helps a little!

Daragh101

no one seems to now anything.........qualified me hole!

ixus

Daragh101 wrote: »

could be worse mate!!!!!!!

Daragh101 wrote: »

no one seems to now anything.........qualified me hole!

A sterling contribution to the thread Darragh :rolleyes:

If you have nothing constructive to add, don't post.

And, don't reply here to this post, take it to PM or helpdesk if you have an issue.

Pedants corner: it's know.

johndaman66

Just to let ye know folks based on my own valuations which I request from BOI on a mothly basis I calculate that evergreen fund has gained almost 7% from 10th of July to the 6th of August. You may well argue this is nothin compared to what it lost and that would be a fair enough assessment. However a 7 odd percent gain in less than a month looks to be pretty healthy to me. Hopefully it is a sign of better things to come. I for one would be a happy boy if it continued to make even half such gains for the next while

johndaman66

How do ye feel after getting yer annual statements in October folks. I am somewhat cautioustly optomistic on the ground the Fund is making up over the last few months. I was in BOI yesterday to talk to BOI Life representative and arrange for my monthly contributions to be stopped. He rang main Dublin branch to arrange for my contributions to be stopped, said he was going to pass the phone to me and Colm at the other end would ask me a couple of verification questions before he would carry out the request. A somewhat jolly sounding chap came on the phone asking me what kind of a day it was in Limerick and I said cool enough Colm. Then he said you can pass me back over to John so please John. I was there...do you want to ask me a few verification questions Colm. He said oh yeah, and asked me my date of birth and address. I thought it was all a bit sloppy.

Howsever, enough rabbiting on. When I was in there the BOI Life rep told me he reckons the Evergreen Fund is not right for me and suggested I consider redeeming out and subscribe to the Balanced Managed Fund as it has higher growth potential due to having a higher equity content than the Evergreen Fund and the outlook for the world economies is really super following on from the recession which is now clearly in the past etc. I took a copy of the prospectus and said I'd mull it over in my mind but won't make a decision at the moment.

Was thinking to myself after would this be kind of silly as I'd immediately realise a loss if I redeemed out of the the Evergreen Fund but any gains I would make in the Balanced Managed Fund would be subject to DIRT tax. In essence I could make a gains in Evergreen to bring me back up as far as what I contributed without having to pay exit tax. But any gains I make in the Balanced managed Fund would immediately me subject to DIRT tax (assuming I don't make a loss in it first). I would imagine that the Balanced Managed Fund would need to seriously outperform the Evergren Fund to justify me making the change So given that the content of the Balanced Managed Fund is somewhat different to Evergreen Fund but not absolutely dramatically different this would appear to be poor advice to me. Is it just the commission from selling the product to me that had this guy so excited I'm thinking? Perhaps I'm incorrect in the assumptions I make above as I am by no means an expert but just want to tip people of to this sort of thing if I am correct.

Sorry if post is somewhat longwinded. Just want to share my experiences with people who are in a similar situation to me. For the moment I am going to leave the money sit there and monitor how it is performing on a monthly basis. The only reason I continued my contributions up until now was to ensure I got my loyalty bonus on the third aniversary of my subscription to the Fund (which was by no means massive). Otherwise I would have ceased contributing earlier on in the year.

Jayminator

johndaman66 wrote: »

How do ye feel after getting yer annual statements in October folks. I am somewhat cautioustly optomistic on the ground the Fund is making up over the last few months. I was in BOI yesterday to talk to BOI Life representative and arrange for my monthly contributions to be stopped. He rang main Dublin branch to arrange for my contributions to be stopped, said he was going to pass the phone to me and Colm at the other end would ask me a couple of verification questions before he would carry out the request. A somewhat jolly sounding chap came on the phone asking me what kind of a day it was in Limerick and I said cool enough Colm. Then he said you can pass me back over to John so please John. I was there...do you want to ask me a few verification questions Colm. He said oh yeah, and asked me my date of birth and address. I thought it was all a bit sloppy.

Howsever, enough rabbiting on. When I was in there the BOI Life rep told me he reckons the Evergreen Fund is not right for me and suggested I consider redeeming out and subscribe to the Balanced Managed Fund as it has higher growth potential due to having a higher equity content than the Evergreen Fund and the outlook for the world economies is really super following on from the recession which is now clearly in the past etc. I took a copy of the prospectus and said I'd mull it over in my mind but won't make a decision at the moment.

Was thinking to myself after would this be kind of silly as I'd immediately realise a loss if I redeemed out of the the Evergreen Fund but any gains I would make in the Balanced Managed Fund would be subject to DIRT tax. In essence I could make a gains in Evergreen to bring me back up as far as what I contributed without having to pay exit tax. But any gains I make in the Balanced managed Fund would immediately me subject to DIRT tax (assuming I don't make a loss in it first). I would imagine that the Balanced Managed Fund would need to seriously outperform the Evergren Fund to justify me making the change So given that the content of the Balanced Managed Fund is somewhat different to Evergreen Fund but not absolutely dramatically different this would appear to be poor advice to me. Is it just the commission from selling the product to me that had this guy so excited I'm thinking? Perhaps I'm incorrect in the assumptions I make above as I am by no means an expert but just want to tip people of to this sort of thing if I am correct.

Sorry if post is somewhat longwinded. Just want to share my experiences with people who are in a similar situation to me. For the moment I am going to leave the money sit there and monitor how it is performing on a monthly basis. The only reason I continued my contributions up until now was to ensure I got my loyalty bonus on the third aniversary of my subscription to the Fund (which was by no means massive). Otherwise I would have ceased contributing earlier on in the year.

Without having much info on the charging structure of the new fund he has recommended I would suggest you are being raped again here. Ask him is he proposing just a fund switch or is he suggesting an entirely new product.

If its just a fund switch then there should be no charge. You should be allowed 2 free switches a year and any subsequent switches usually incur a €25 admin fee.

If its a new product then he is just concerned about earning some commission from you. Absolutely no reason why you would need a new product as this balanced fund should be available within the portfolio of managed funds available from the bank.

No real point in switching either. Both type of funds seem to be very similar in their make up. A balanced fund typically has a 50% equity holding with the balance of monies invested in lower risk fixed interest / bond type investments. I personally dont see any merit in moving your money as your current fund choice is on the way up again and has been since March 2009. If you move now you may miss out on further fund growth.

This link should give you the make up of a normal balanced fund so please make sure this time that if you are going to move its the right type of fund for your investor profile. AND BEWARE OF NEW CHARGES

http://canadalife.moneymate.com/Details.aspx?site=corporate&country=IE&id=25000244

Hope this helps.

Jay

johndaman66

Thanks for advice Jay. You pretty much confirmed my over-riding suspicion. Being honest a one off €25 admin fee for moving to a much better performing Fund (if such was the case) wouldn't bother me too much given the amount of money I have invested. However, and as you point out there is a high probability that this guy is advising me based on what is good for him opposed to having my interests at heart. As I point out though what would bother me even moreso is the fact that more than likely I would be realizing my loss when I exit the Fund and could not carry forward any losses to offset against gains in the new Fund when DIRT tax is to be calculated...at least this is what I think would be the case. This would mean the new Balanced Managed Fund would need to be dramatically outperforming the Evergreen Fund in order for the move to make any sense. Being honest I haven't went into the branch to discuss this option any further (not too easy to do these sort of things when you work 9 to 5 in any event) but not exactly too pushed either. Will be more inclined to leave my money sit in Evergreen Fund and continue to monitor its performance closely.

For the most part just want to put my thoughts out to other posters on the potential pitfalls of moving Fund at a whim in these challenging times. Thanks again for advice Jay. Appreciated

35x

Another victim of Evergreen....changed to Balanced Managed Fund on advice of BoI adviser when I was going to pull out altoghether from Evergreen. Any recent developments?

PS I recently "won" e800,000 in Spanish Lottery!!!!!...would it be safer than above Funds? !!!!!!!

johndaman66

35x wrote: »

Another victim of Evergreen....changed to Balanced Managed Fund on advice of BoI adviser when I was going to pull out altoghether from Evergreen. Any recent developments?

PS I recently "won" e800,000 in Spanish Lottery!!!!!...would it be safer than above Funds? !!!!!!!

Hi 35x I am not fully sure which or whether you are in the same Fund structure as me at the moment but I am in Evergreen Balanced Managed Fund (not the guaranteed fund). Over the past few months the Fund seemed to be gaining considerable ground - slowly but surely. At the start of May it was down on the previous month slightly but these flucuations are no doubt to be expected given the times were in. Think one of the biggest thorns in the side of this Fund is the weakness of sterling as I believe much of its property portfolio is UK rental property. However sterling has gained some ground to the euro over the last few weeks or rather the euro has weakened so this may help to bump up the unit price.

I would be somewhat apprehensive about switching from one Fund to another for the reason mentioned previously but if you have already done so suppose there's no turning back the clock now.

Hey that 800k will surely ease your financial worries for a while though!

GeorgeH

Fair to say Evergreen seems to have gone through no worse than most other balanced managed funds in recent times? Maybe a bit over-exposed to Irish commerical property at the worst time? But sure wouldn't all be wonderful if we had heeded what is now the obvious? One could switch funds only to find it performs worse than Evergreen now that investment markets are improving? Who knows for sure? :-)

pavb2

In a similar position as others took out pension with Irish Life in 2006 down about 55% as money was invested totally in Irish Property Fund they don't allow you to transfer out for 6 months.

Like others I used to check on line every month but now don't.

I'm still undecided as to transfer into a better performing pension or just leave for 10 - 20 years hoping at least I might break even, any advice or thoughts.

johndaman66

pavb2 wrote: »

I'm still undecided as to transfer into a better performing pension or just leave for 10 - 20 years hoping at least I might break even, any advice or thoughts.

Not trying to be smart or anything but I think you may be best to seek some independent financial advice from someone who is in no way affiliated with any particular investment house. If they are trying to push Irish Life products exclusively for example alarm bells should be ringing. While there are no doubt some insightful thoughts on boards I feel a lot of the time that people on it are too opinionated to provide a balanced and objective point of view. Just my thoughts. When you say break even though I am wondering what you mean by break even. Do bear in mind that if you come out with euro for euro initially invested in 10 - 20 years time you won't have broken even as you also need to consider inflation will have eroded the value of your money in the ensuing period.

xw2lj9uspm1eyh

Wow can't believe people are still contributing to this thread a year and a half after I making it .Well I have an update the people that told me to stick with it were right.Gone from a €6,500 loss to around €2,500 loss while it still isn't ideal I'm much happier now with it after all that's happened this year thought it be alot worse .I still have 2 years on it before I can cash it in without getting caught with penalties so fingers crossed I can pull even .

pavb2

Thanks for reply to be specific my pension is a directors pension so what I am down now (my real loss if you will) is about 7% less than if I had taken money out of the business and paid 48%? tax. So one could argue that what is eroded by inflation will be offset to a degree by the tax break.

My problem with my pensions & you are correct is that the 2 previous "independant" brokers had vested interests with Irish Life unfortunately the damage was done (all funds invested in Irish Life,Irish Property Fund) before I wised up, in fairness I got some good advice on here which was to diversify investements.

I've now done this & set up a more suitable scheme with Zurich it's just a question of whether I take the hit on the Irish Life pension & transfer or leave it where it is.

Either way I won't take out another scheme with Irish Life I know it's buyer beware but I ended up paying more fees and charges than perhaps I should and as said on here "Diversify".

Thanks for advice

IrishEllie

Recently my family have been helping my parents get their financial affairs in order, my mother did the SSIA scheme and when it was finished she was sent a letter from BOI asking to come and talk to Investments manager which she did. She was 65 at this point and working part time as a cleaner, from which she retired the following year with her life savings from SSIA of 12k euro the BOI investment manager told her the Ever Green fund was low risk and best of any investment to get a return on capital. He did not offer any other investment alternative so Mum signed up to it, obviously with the current economic crisis the fund lost money.
What I would like to know is how could a financial advisor advise a pensioner of 65 that this investment, which after looking into myself is a medium to high risk investment with her life savings?????????????????
This is absolutely disgraceful that he did not advise that she should do a savings plan or a investment that did not pose risk to her capital, she lost 3000K. She pulled out of the plan last year. I have made an appointment to see Financial advisor in BOI and get some answers on the negligence of their staff and taking advantage of OAPS.

infamous

IrishEllie wrote: »

Recently my family have been helping my parents get their financial affairs in order, my mother did the SSIA scheme and when it was finished she was sent a letter from BOI asking to come and talk to Investments manager which she did. She was 65 at this point and working part time as a cleaner, from which she retired the following year with her life savings from SSIA of 12k euro the BOI investment manager told her the Ever Green fund was low risk and best of any investment to get a return on capital. He did not offer any other investment alternative so Mum signed up to it, obviously with the current economic crisis the fund lost money.
What I would like to know is how could a financial advisor advise a pensioner of 65 that this investment, which after looking into myself is a medium to high risk investment with her life savings?????????????????
This is absolutely disgraceful that he did not advise that she should do a savings plan or a investment that did not pose risk to her capital, she lost 3000K. She pulled out of the plan last year. I have made an appointment to see Financial advisor in BOI and get some answers on the negligence of their staff and taking advantage of OAPS.

One of the main problems over the last number of years was people getting involved in investments that they did not understand. People cannot pawn off their own ignorance on the financial institutes that sold them the various investments. Even the term financial advisor is indicative of their role, they give financial advice but ultimatly it is up to the investor to make the final financial decision. All investments carry a warning regarding risks I would have no sympathy for investors who are burned and then comeback with the sure I didnt know attitude. You are responsible for all your own investments.

soddy1979

infamous wrote: »

One of the main problems over the last number of years was people getting involved in investments that they did not understand. People cannot pawn off their own ignorance on the financial institutes that sold them the various investments. Even the term financial advisor is indicative of their role, they give financial advice but ultimatly it is up to the investor to make the final financial decision. All investments carry a warning regarding risks I would have no sympathy for investors who are burned and then comeback with the sure I didnt know attitude. You are responsible for all your own investments.

That's not exactly true; the financial advisor is in a position of trust and a position of knowledge. You pay a financial advisor a fee (be it flat or a commission rebate from the provider) to make the right decision for you. If they make the wrong decision, you should have recourse.

I'm not saying a wrong decision is an investment that goes belly up - that can happen with anything. However, if you recommend a clearly unsuitable product to somebody for the sake of getting a commission; I think that's extremely unethical and is possibly grounds for legal action.

What you are saying above is like saying go to a doctor/lawyer/accountant/etc. - take their advice and if it's wrong, it's your problem.

irishh_bob

IrishEllie wrote: »

Recently my family have been helping my parents get their financial affairs in order, my mother did the SSIA scheme and when it was finished she was sent a letter from BOI asking to come and talk to Investments manager which she did. She was 65 at this point and working part time as a cleaner, from which she retired the following year with her life savings from SSIA of 12k euro the BOI investment manager told her the Ever Green fund was low risk and best of any investment to get a return on capital. He did not offer any other investment alternative so Mum signed up to it, obviously with the current economic crisis the fund lost money.
What I would like to know is how could a financial advisor advise a pensioner of 65 that this investment, which after looking into myself is a medium to high risk investment with her life savings?????????????????
This is absolutely disgraceful that he did not advise that she should do a savings plan or a investment that did not pose risk to her capital, she lost 3000K. She pulled out of the plan last year. I have made an appointment to see Financial advisor in BOI and get some answers on the negligence of their staff and taking advantage of OAPS.

the majority of investment funds that banks sell dont make any money , thier nothing more than vechiles for banks to extract money out of trusting clients , sadly , thier will be no come back here

johndaman66

soddy1979 wrote: »

If they make the wrong decision, you should have recourse.

On this particular point I'm not sure I agree with you. When I invested in the Evergreen Fund I did so on the basis that it made a good return over the last number of years at the time. Throughout the process I was made fully aware that there was a risk associated with my capital investment in the form of Warning: The value of your investment may go down as well as up.

While I do thoroughly sympathise with people such as IrishEllie's mother I don't believe they should automatically have recourse avenue available to them because of their own personal circumstances because in that case where do you draw the line. Take my own personal situation for example. I've lost considerably more than IrishEllie's mother. However, I am young and single without children or any other committments, with no immediate need to encash and have other savings. In that sense its water of a ducks back in a way, I've learned the lesson once bitten twice shy. However, If I had married in the meantime, had kids, bought a house and lost my job chances are I'd probably need the money and more. Would I automatically be entitled to recourse then? My over-riding point is where do you draw the line? You might argue that the situation is different for an older person but what if the older person is quite wealthy in the first place, where do you draw the line in this regard

mono627

johndaman66 wrote: »

On this particular point I'm not sure I agree with you. When I invested in the Evergreen Fund I did so on the basis that it made a good return over the last number of years at the time. Throughout the process I was made fully aware that there was a risk associated with my capital investment in the form of Warning: The value of your investment may go down as well as up.

While I do thoroughly sympathise with people such as IrishEllie's mother I don't believe they should automatically have recourse avenue available to them because of their own personal circumstances because in that case where do you draw the line. Take my own personal situation for example. I've lost considerably more than IrishEllie's mother. However, I am young and single without children or any other committments, with no immediate need to encash and have other savings. In that sense its water of a ducks back in a way, I've learned the lesson once bitten twice shy. However, If I had married in the meantime, had kids, bought a house and lost my job chances are I'd probably need the money and more. Would I automatically be entitled to recourse then? My over-riding point is where do you draw the line? You might argue that the situation is different for an older person but what if the older person is quite wealthy in the first place, where do you draw the line in this regard

I personally wouldn't rule out recourse in this particular case if what has been said up to now is true: Old lady encouraged to put life savings into high risk fund.

johndaman66 the line here is the fact that it is an old lady with her life savings looking for a low risk investment, she should have never been advised towards any sort of risky fund unless she made it specifically clear that she was investing discretionary income.

One of the first things a financial advisor will learn is that as you get nearer retirement age your exposure to risky assets should decrease and to advise anything other than this is negligence.

I completely agree that in a normal situation you would just be told 'tough' or 'caveat emptor', but I would argue that this is not a normal situation.

Thargor

The one my parents gave me a few years ago right at the peak is recoverig but still down 25%, its recovery seems to have stalled recently, Im giving it another 6 months then Im cashing it.

You know you can value the fund yourself whenever you want dont you? Find the fund at this link and click on the Euro symbol beside it, fill in how many units you have (says it on the contract/receipt thing) and it'll value it for you. Click on your fund aswell and you'll get this summary sheet that updates once a month:

http://fundcentre.bankofirelandlife.ie/Factsheet.aspx?FundId=548&CountryId=N0

Jayminato

mono627 wrote: »

I personally wouldn't rule out recourse in this particular case if what has been said up to now is true: Old lady encouraged to put life savings into high risk fund.

johndaman66 the line here is the fact that it is an old lady with her life savings looking for a low risk investment, she should have never been advised towards any sort of risky fund unless she made it specifically clear that she was investing discretionary income.

One of the first things a financial advisor will learn is that as you get nearer retirement age your exposure to risky assets should decrease and to advise anything other than this is negligence.

I completely agree that in a normal situation you would just be told 'tough' or 'caveat emptor', but I would argue that this is not a normal situation.

There was a case recently in front of the ombudsman where an elderly lady took a case against a well known investment / pension company because the value of her property fund investment had dropped by 45%. Signed documentation was produced which was signed by the client confirming she was fully aware and accepting of the risks.

She lost her case.

I fully agree that all investments must suit the investment profile of the particular client but for every elderly client that I deal with who are completely adverse to risk I also have an elderely client who is happy to take a risk.
The real issue is what % of clients overall available wealth should be exposed to risk and this is a decision that lies with the client provided they are made fully aware of all risks associated with a recommended product.

There is legislation in place where ''vulnerable clients'' (aged over 60) are presented with the option of having a third party present for any sales presentation and any paperwork associated with an investment sale to a vulnerable client must clearly state the client was given this option. The client must sign this off. There have been huge strides made to protect the vulnerable investor but probably a little late if ya ask me.

The advisor however also has a moral obligation when providing advice and this is where the process breaks down. It is on this basis that I feel some clients should have recourse to the product provider.