"Harney refuses to rule out cuts in minimum wage"

sovtek · 23-07-2009 08:39AM

donojono wrote: »

The longer you are on the dole the less it should pay. If you just lost your job for the 1st year if should be called. Redundancy allowance while your seeking a new job. If your on it a year it should get slashed 5 percent. If you on it 20 years.... well. Even when the econonmy booms back. THem people will still be on the dole(The ones from my OP).

Thats just a completely ridiculous idea. I imagine you would love living in America...of course not having to live off welfare because thats pretty much what they do. Would you like to bump Ireland upwards in the leagues of America in terms of literacy, life expectancy, teenage pregnancy, and crime? If you answered no then you will not do anything like you are proposing.

sovtek · 23-07-2009 08:47AM

the_syco wrote: »

There's a polish dude to my left at work, and he can work as well as me. I shop in Aldi and Lidl, because it's cheaper. It's cheaper because there's usually only 7 people in the store, 2 being on the tills. In Tescos, there'd be 5 people on the tills, and many more stocking shelves.

Actually in Germany there would be as many working the tills and stocking the shelves in Aldi or Lidl as there would be in Tescos here and it's still cheaper. Thats because businesses in Ireland are run far differently, in my experience, than any other western country I've ever lived in. Basically the wages dont effect the price at the till as much as you seemt to think. It has more to do with how much the guy at the top is creaming off in profits. Its exactly why you hear the SME cartel spokesman always bitching about wages.

I say sterilise anyone who is on the dole for more than 30 years, apart from those unable to work due to illness, loss of limbs, etc. And no, dislike of working doesn't count.

I say sterilize anyone who begrudges another human a few small pleasures in life.

speedboatchase · 23-07-2009 09:23AM

sovtek wrote: »

Thats just a completely ridiculous idea. I imagine you would love living in America...of course not having to live off welfare because thats pretty much what they do. Would you like to bump Ireland upwards in the leagues of America in terms of literacy, life expectancy, teenage pregnancy, and crime? If you answered no then you will not do anything like you are proposing.

Straw man argument. I completely agree with donojono although I think people should have the option of providing some sort of community service on a regular basis to keep their dole pay at the same scale, if not it should be dropped

sovtek · 23-07-2009 09:35AM

speedboatchase wrote: »

Straw man argument.

I don't see how you are getting that. I was, quite clearly, arguing against the point the_syco made

speedboatchase · 23-07-2009 10:04AM

I was referring to your rebuttal of donojono, where you implied that the poster would advocate Ireland fall to the levels of "literacy, life expectancy, teenage pregnancy, and crime" that exist in America purely on their advocation of an American-style system of social welfare.

sovtek · 23-07-2009 10:36AM

speedboatchase wrote: »

I was referring to your rebuttal of donojono, where you implied that the poster would advocate Ireland fall to the levels of "literacy, life expectancy, teenage pregnancy, and crime" that exist in America purely on their advocation of an American-style system of social welfare.

Apologies I thought you meant the_syco.
It's not a strawmen to say that it would lead to those very symptons nor is it a strawmen to say that what donojo was advocating was such a system.

Tony EH · 23-07-2009 10:40AM

the_syco wrote: »

LOL You say €200 is not enough, but you won't say what you think is enough!

Where did I say it wasn't enough?

Permabear · 23-07-2009 11:31AM

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Lockstep · 23-07-2009 11:45AM

donegalfella wrote: »

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To be fair DF, the first report is nearly 20 years old. Demographics have changed since then.

Despite the above findings, US teen pregnancy is far higher than European countries with generous welfare states

Permabear · 23-07-2009 12:00PM

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P. Breathnach · 23-07-2009 12:12PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Wilkinson and Pickett (The Spirit Level) might have the explanation: Japan is the most equal of the economies in their study, and the teenage birth rate, at about 5 per 1000, falls very close to the regression line (i.e. as would be predicted by their methodology).

The US rate, as it happens, is an outlying point: even though the high inequality in the US would suggest a high rate of about 30 per 1000, the actual rate is over 50 per 1000.

Lockstep · 23-07-2009 12:16PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Have they?
I'm not an expert on the US system, I'm unaware if they have remained the same over 20 years.

donegalfella wrote: »

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Possibly because Japan also has one of the lowest birth rates in the world. (If the total birth rate is one of the lowest in the world, then it is logical for the teen birth rate to parallel)

Permabear · 23-07-2009 01:02PM

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Lockstep · 23-07-2009 01:48PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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I'd say there is some truth in the above; especially in relation to education.

donegalfella wrote: »

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The birthrate is often offset by immigration, although the countries at the bottom of
this list wouldn't have struck me as being particularly equal.

P. Breathnach · 23-07-2009 01:53PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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No predictor of human outcomes is totally accurate, and I don't think anybody is suggesting that inequality explains everything. The contention is that it explains a great deal. As I already suggested, cultural differences are a good candidate explanation for outlying values.

I don't think the core finding should be ignored: there is a statistically significant link between degree of inequality and the levels of outcomes that most of us consider to be undesirable.

[Mind you, I don't think you should advance the waning influence of religion as an explanation of anything in the US.]

Permabear · 23-07-2009 02:41PM

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tolosenc · 23-07-2009 02:44PM

There should not be any incentive to stay on the dole. No more than 10 hours a week on the minimum wage. Basically, enough for bread and water. The only way for a system like that to work is if living on benefits is the most horrible experience of your life.

Minimum wage clearly needs to be slashed. It's prohibitative in businesses with ever-decreasing margins, which is pretty much all of them.

Lockstep · 23-07-2009 02:48PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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Well communism did have a massive welfare state.

I'd say one of the highest causes in 2008 was emigration (simultaneously bolstering industralised nations falling fertility rate)

Liam Byrne · 23-07-2009 02:50PM

How about imposing a MAXIMUM wage, especially for those who get to choose what they think they are worth (regardless of who disagrees)....e.g. bank heads, politicians, etc....

techdiver · 23-07-2009 02:56PM

Liam Byrne wrote: »

How about imposing a MAXIMUM wage, especially for those who get to choose what they think they are worth (regardless of who disagrees)....e.g. bank heads, politicians, etc....

Terrible idea! We want to get away from the idea of defined payment regardless of skill. If there is no reward especially in the private sector there is no incentive for entrepreneurs to start business and create jobs and growth.

Bonuses might be dealt with differently and should not be awarded for excessive risk in the banking sector as they were in the past. I think the main point is to differentiate between restricting salary and rewarding recklessness.

P. Breathnach · 23-07-2009 03:12PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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True. But it certainly opens up a line of enquiry, and it may lead one to find whatever causes a phenomenon. So you don't just shrug your shoulders and ignore statistically-significant findings.

It's worth noting that the overall teenage birthrate fell by 30 percent in the USA between 1991 and 2002, while the teen abortion rate fell by 50 percent between 1988 and 2002. Among black teenage girls aged 15–19, the pregnancy rate fell by 40 percent between 1990 and 2002; it fell by 34 percent for white girls during the same period. (Source.) However, this coincides with what most commentators have seen as a period of increasing inequality in the USA. Wouldn't your model have predicted an increase in the teen birthrate during the 1990s, rather than a 30 percent decline?

Not at all. Because the US rate is so much higher than the model predicts, it is reasonable to suppose that there are factors in play which are additional to inequality. It could well be that the impact of those additional factors has diminished, and the rate is approaching the level that the model would predict.

Incidentally, Wilkinson and Pickett also looked at the phenomenon within the US, and found similar regression.

Permabear · 23-07-2009 03:45PM

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P. Breathnach · 23-07-2009 04:34PM

donegalfella wrote: »

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You suppose that the way to reduce inequality is "a program of socialistic wealth redistribution" (and I suspect that you regard "socialistic" as a pejorative label). I am not sure that taxation and welfare payments are the key mechanism for addressing inequality and its concomitants. For this, I go back to the correlation/causation issue. It might be that inequality is not the cause of the undesirable outcomes, but that inequality is simply an outcome that shares a cause with the others. Redistribution via the exchequer might be dealing with the symptoms rather than with the fundamental problem.

This is getting rather close to a Political Theory discussion, and you might have noticed that I don't spend much time in that sub-group. So rather than setting out further theory, I'll summarise the rest of my argument as "It's about respect, man!"

Permabear · 23-07-2009 04:56PM

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Mario007 · 23-07-2009 07:29PM

to get back to the original point of this thread:

Who wants to review minimum wage:
Harney, Lenihan, Martin

Who doesnt:
Coughlan

Who doesnt know what to do:
Cowen

so will anything come about,do you think?

Taxipete29 · 23-07-2009 07:29PM

I personally am against any cut in the minimum wage, but would people not agree that its far too early to be having a discussion on this subject??

If we cut the minimum wage tomorrow by 10%, it goes from €8.65 to €7.79. Will that really make the difference between a job being created or not??

Mario007 · 23-07-2009 07:39PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

I personally am against any cut in the minimum wage, but would people not agree that its far too early to be having a discussion on this subject??

If we cut the minimum wage tomorrow by 10%, it goes from €8.65 to €7.79. Will that really make the difference between a job being created or not??

it would send a signal that ireland wants to restore the competitiveness...of course minimum wage is not the only thing out there...we need to reduce administration charges, local athority 'secret' rates and of course the energy costs. but consider this, according to the statistics ireland's economic level is around 2004-2006 level, thus i dont see a point in mantaining the minimum wage at a level it was during those years, or decrease it with deflation. this is only fair as it increased with inflation so clearly it should go down with deflation if we want to be fair

Taxipete29 · 23-07-2009 07:59PM

Mario007 wrote: »

it would send a signal that ireland wants to restore the competitiveness...of course minimum wage is not the only thing out there...we need to reduce administration charges, local athority 'secret' rates and of course the energy costs. but consider this, according to the statistics ireland's economic level is around 2004-2006 level, thus i dont see a point in mantaining the minimum wage at a level it was during those years, or decrease it with deflation. this is only fair as it increased with inflation so clearly it should go down with deflation if we want to be fair

We will never attract major manufacturing back into this coutry ever. We will never compete with countries in Eastern Europe and India etc. The future here is high tech value added jobs. Thats where we need to be competing and we can only do this by lowering commercial rates, ESB, Gas etc. The price of land was a major restrictive factor in the recent past although I would imagine that will be less of a problem into the future.

The problem is not the minimum wage.

Mario007 · 23-07-2009 08:07PM

Taxipete29 wrote: »

We will never attract major manufacturing back into this coutry ever. We will never compete with countries in Eastern Europe and India etc. The future here is high tech value added jobs. Thats where we need to be competing and we can only do this by lowering commercial rates, ESB, Gas etc. The price of land was a major restrictive factor in the recent past although I would imagine that will be less of a problem into the future.

The problem is not the minimum wage.

i agree that commercial rates, ESB, Gas etc have all to go down. i also agree we cant compete with eastern europe, but we have to be able to compete with england, france, germany etc.
minimum wage is part of the problem, because as an employer when i see the minimum wage in ireland and its patter of rapid increase i'd be afraid to invest my money in. simply because my employees will seek at least 2-4 euro an hour more than the minimum wage, as the general perception is that working for minimal wage is 'below me'.
also as i said it is only fair to decrease it with deflation, if we increased it with inflation. we can't just go one way...if we want to make the minimum wage to reflect the living standards

Taxipete29 · 23-07-2009 08:29PM

Mario007 wrote: »

i agree that commercial rates, ESB, Gas etc have all to go down. i also agree we cant compete with eastern europe, but we have to be able to compete with england, france, germany etc.
minimum wage is part of the problem, because as an employer when i see the minimum wage in ireland and its patter of rapid increase i'd be afraid to invest my money in. simply because my employees will seek at least 2-4 euro an hour more than the minimum wage, as the general perception is that working for minimal wage is 'below me'.
also as i said it is only fair to decrease it with deflation, if we increased it with inflation. we can't just go one way...if we want to make the minimum wage to reflect the living standards

The minimum wage hasnt increased in 2 years and is highly unlikely to increase again in the near future.

What is wrong with wanting a decent standard of living for all workers. Those who work minimum wage work hard in most cases and deserve to do more than just exist which is about all you can do on it at the moment if you dont live at home. € 350 a week is hardly high living now is it

"Harney refuses to rule out cuts in minimum wage"

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