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"Harney refuses to rule out cuts in minimum wage"

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  • #152
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,044 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    The only one talking "nonsense" DF, is you. You making it seem like life on the dole is a picnic. Try giving some figures that offset the rise in the amount of social welfare. Cost of gas, electricity etc. Again, your budget increases are taken in complete isolation.

    As if nothing else went up.
    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Private sector renting in Ireland has never been a sound option. There's never been solid controls on the renting market and even the organisations that have been put in place are farely toothless.

    Renting in Ireland is and has always been a purely Landlords market and the vast majority of people rent in the hope of eventually owning their own home. Whereas the situation on the continent is vastly different, because they have had the wherewithal to put in place decent measures for tennants.

    Also, I know of NO ONE who is on a "4 year lease".


  • #153
    paulboards
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14 ✭paulboards


    The cost of living has not fallen much. A pint, bread, coke, and milk are all about the same price. Rents have fallen. I don't agree with reducng the minimum wage. However people on minimum wage should pay tax. This idea that they can't afford it so should make no contribution to the country is wrong. As for Harney she should never have been given such an important job. she has never had a mandate from the people to do that job. She is not even the most popular TD in her own constituency. She is anti-union. She could not find 12 million for a vaccine and yet the government have billions to bail out the banks. :mad: Just wait till I am Taoiseach :rolleyes:


  • #154
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #155
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Cost of gas, electricity etc. Again, your budget increases are taken in complete isolation.

    That is why donegalfella stated that they rose faster than inflation! Is that so very hard to understand?


  • #156
    techdiver
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,550 ✭✭✭techdiver


    sovtek wrote: »
    I'm not backing the notion that renting wasn't an option but Tony has a point about renting. Until the PRTB was setup you had basically no rights and the standards in Ireland are very poor.
    Also everyone from politicians to the Central Bank were pretty much saying you need to get on the property ladder. You can't ignore that there was a lot of pressure in this society to buy a home and that many people were taken advantage of. This is basically blaming the victim.
    I remember paying off my second loan in 2004. The day I did the girl at the counter tried to get me to take out €13000 even though I told her I was leaving the country.

    Ah yes, lets play the innocent victim card again.

    Many FTB purchased a house with no intention of treating it as a long term residence, it was merely used to "get the foot on the property ladder". If they only intended short term residency in this property the could have rented and avoided entering into a massive commitment that nothing to do with the fact that "renting was not an option for them".
    sovtek wrote: »
    That's why the country is in a mess. Not because of welfare, the public sector, "high" wages or a minimum wage. That is another fact.

    Bull! It is part and parcel and all closely coupled with each other. High wages did play a part in our misfortune, because it put people in a position to invest in property that normally wouldn't have qualified. This bubble then fed the over inflated wages that were paid by the government to the public sector, thus driving up costs and increasing wage pressure on the private sector to match, which then resulted in a hike in the minimum wage to keep up.

    It is all part of one systemic failure and all of it needs to be corrected, not just the populist and palatable measures.


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  • #157
    deadhead13
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,034 ✭✭✭deadhead13


    The Mary Harney quote which started this debate was her response to questions relating to a statement made by the Peter Bacon, one of the Governments economic advisers. What he actually said was - salaries accross the board in Ireland were too high and needed to be reduced by up 15% and he included the minimum wage in this.

    Are those advocating for a reduction in the mininum wage willing to take a 15% cut in salary for the greater good of the economy. That is, on top of the cuts that a lot have already taken, the income levies and whatever the Commission for Taxation is going to come up with.


  • #158
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #159
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,044 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    turgon wrote: »
    That is why donegalfella stated that they rose faster than inflation! Is that so very hard to understand?

    Big deal if they rose faster or not. Trying to make it out like living on the dole is a weekly party is ridiculous.

    It's the same old bitter "dole scrounger" cannard that gets dragged up, no matter what state the finances are in.

    The bottom line is that Ireland is an incredibly expensive Country to live in and people surviving of E200 a week have it difficult enough.


  • #160
    irish_bob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,271 ✭✭✭irish_bob


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Sorry, but that's just rubbish. Ireland's renting market has always been a brutal business, with no regard whatsoever for the tennant. Rents can simply be hiked up to whatever the landlord wishes, contracts are changed each year with no regard to tennant welfare, there's no controls or regulations about the quality of rented property, renters cannot start families or put children in local schools as they don't know where they might be forced to live in a years time etc...

    The renting market was and still is not an option to owning a home.

    tennants in ireland are actually well protected under law


  • #161
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,044 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    I cannot agree with that Bob. Not even remotely.

    The situation may have changed a little, in the last year. But renting in Ireland is still way, way below the standards that the Continent or America enjoys.


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  • #162
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #163
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Big deal if they rose faster or not.

    Oh so now you ignoring the fact that social welfare rose faster than inflation. Congratulations.


  • #164
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,044 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Well, post some examples. Simply sticking up the increases in social welfare payments as you've done is not good enough and is displaying something that's completely out of context just to suit your point of view.

    It's not representative of the real situation and that situation is that life on the dole is a difficult prospect.

    You seem to be labouring under the impression that people on the dole are having an easy time.


  • #165
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,044 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    turgon wrote: »
    Oh so now you ignoring the fact that social welfare rose faster than inflation. Congratulations.

    Of course. Because it misrepresents the reality of life on the dole.

    A percentage rise doen't tell the whole story. So what if the dole is increased by 5% and gas in increased by 2% in the same year. The reality on the ground is that the increase in gas still bites hard when everything else is taken into consideration.


  • #166
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #167
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #168
    Shan75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 484 ✭✭Shan75


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Big deal if they rose faster or not. Trying to make it out like living on the dole is a weekly party is ridiculous.

    It's the same old bitter "dole scrounger" cannard that gets dragged up, no matter what state the finances are in.

    The bottom line is that Ireland is an incredibly expensive Country to live in and people surviving of E200 a week have it difficult enough.

    It is a big deal.There is no reason why social welfare should have been increased at a faster rate than inflation.Social welfare is there to assist people who have lost their jobs, and also to assist people who cannot work.It is not there to ensure that recipients purchasing power increases regardless of good times or bad.You seem to be stuck on the idea that it is hard to survive on the dole.We all know it is not a barrel of laughs.It's not supposed to be.All we need to make sure is people have enough to cover the essentials but we cannot afford any more than that.

    I don't think very many people on here, if anyone, has accused the majority of people on social welfare as scroungers.

    The real bottom line is we have a point we are fast approaching where we can no longer ignore the reality of cuts in public expenditure.We've had Levy increases and I suspect we will have more this year but as we have less people working it isn't enough to cover our outgoings so cuts in benefits and public sector workforce are necessary.


  • #169
    the_syco
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,308 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    lmtduffy wrote: »
    It will just end with the economy eventually getting better and employees being payed less and employers having saved money in the past and making more money in the upturn.
    And those who make no profit go out of business...
    Tony EH wrote: »
    You are misrepresenting the state of affairs. The money needed to fund the Social Welfare outgoings will come mainly from the sources it has always come from. Taxes.
    Don't think we make enough from the taxes to pay for the dole.


  • #170
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,044 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    How?????

    Because 200 quid a week...is to be spent on a multitude of items. This is not that hard to understand DF.


  • #171
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,044 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Shan75 wrote: »
    It is a big deal.There is no reason why social welfare should have been increased at a faster rate than inflation.Social welfare is there to assist people who have lost their jobs, and also to assist people who cannot work.It is not there to ensure that recipients purchasing power increases regardless of good times or bad.

    Nobody's saying it's there to do that and if you think there's much "purchasing power" on 200 quid a week, you must live the life of a hermit.
    Shan75 wrote: »
    You seem to be stuck on the idea that it is hard to survive on the dole.We all know it is not a barrel of laughs.It's not supposed to be.All we need to make sure is people have enough to cover the essentials but we cannot afford any more than that.

    But that's what people are covering now on what they get at the moment.
    Shan75 wrote: »
    I don't think very many people on here, if anyone, has accused the majority of people on social welfare as scroungers.

    It seems to be the gist of your (and others) argument however.


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  • #172
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #173
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Tony EH wrote: »
    A percentage rise doen't tell the whole story. So what if the dole is increased by 5% and gas in increased by 2% in the same year. The reality on the ground is that the increase in gas still bites hard when everything else is taken into consideration.

    What? So you saying the gas hike "bites hard" even though the welfare increases 2.5 times that gas increase.


  • #174
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,044 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    turgon wrote: »
    What? So you saying the gas hike "bites hard" even though the welfare increases 2.5 times that gas increase.

    Of course, when that gas bill is coupled with an electricity bill, groceries, clothing, rent, mortgage, etc...

    Again, this isn't hard to understand.

    It's only bitterness that's clouding the view.

    Living on 200 Euro a week is far from easy.


  • #175
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Of course, when that gas bill is coupled with an electricity bill, groceries, clothing, rent, mortgage, etc...

    Again, this isn't hard to understand.

    Its actually. The gas bill takes up, say ,10% of the bill; electricity another 10%; food 40%. Its not that only the gas 10% increases by 5% - its the whole thing. So increases in dole compensate for increases in everything. This is the kind of basic maths one is taught in primary school, to be frank.
    Tony EH wrote: »
    It's only bitterness that's clouding the view.

    Bitter at what?


  • #176
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #177
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,044 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Ah sure, it's easy on the dole. I don't know why more people just don't give up work altogether and just live the life of luxury that 200 Euro provides.


  • #178
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Ah sure, it's easy on the dole. I don't know why more people just don't give up work altogether and just live the life of luxury that 200 Euro provides.

    Want to address my point about disproportional rises? Bearing in mind your failure to do so will be taken by me - and probably others - as you admitting I am right.


  • #179
    Martyr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,567 ✭✭✭Martyr


    donegalfella, would you work for minimum wage? lets say for example in a fast food restaurant selling chips and burgers, would you do that?


  • #180
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Martyr wrote: »
    donegalfella, would you work for minimum wage? lets say for example in a fast food restaurant selling chips and burgers, would you do that?

    Considering that he has worked very hard to get many educational qualifications, I would think not. However to the man who has no qualifications, who is he to demand more than minimum wage? What exactly does he have that warrants being paid more than this?


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  • #181
    Sand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,011 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Nobody's saying it's there to do that and if you think there's much "purchasing power" on 200 quid a week, you must live the life of a hermit.

    Are you saying the 200 quid is there to support peoples busy social lives too?

    I think someone mentioned a sense of entitlement being bred into the long term unemployed*** and those on social welfare, a sense that living on the dole becomes a lifestyle option. Seems to be true alright.

    For my parents generation, when they were in their 20s, they were lucky enough to be employed but the concept of saying randomly dropping in to a bar for a drink and a meal, just was not possible. There was no spare cash to do so. Yes, they lived the lives of hermits. No pints every weekend or more, no trips across to watch man united, no sky sports or buying celtic shirts. They werent on the dole, but still they had to budget. They felt poor and they limited their spending to match.

    That attitude seems to be gone for defenders of the frankly extremely generous dole payments. For them, the dole is no longer for maintaining a persons basic dignity...it appears to be to ensure they can maintain themselves in the style to which they have become accustomed.

    Anyway, theres less idealogical need for a minimum wage these days - at the height of the "boom" there was widespread inequality. With the working class suffering massive unemployment, crippling debt, jacked up tax rates and developers having their paper wealth effectively wiped out Ireland is becoming a more equal society.

    Every cloud has a silver lining I guess.

    ***I dont think this is the case for the vast majority currently on the dole - clearly, up until a year ago the majority were working hard and with an unprecedented economic catastrophe hitting, people are going to lose their jobs.


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