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"Harney refuses to rule out cuts in minimum wage"

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  • #92
    Lockstep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,026 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    astrofool wrote: »
    But there are more french tax exiles due to their punitive tax for high earners, causing a net decrease in the amount of tax taken by the government.

    I'm slightly sceptical of this, given that French/Belgian tax rates are fairly similar.
    On top of this, the French nationals would have to pay additional sums on certain goods (like property), if, as you say, they went to Brussels.


  • #93
    Shan75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 484 ✭✭Shan75


    sovtek wrote: »
    People need to get used to the fact that in America this ideology permeates the political and business class...which pretty much means thats what gets done. Now then you look at the social indicators in America as compared to Western Europe and even Ireland and you'll find its not the way to go.
    I've lived here long enough to see that the sense of entitlement largely exists amongst the priviledged classes who are largely underworked, overpaid and highly incompetant...and this aint just the public sector I'm talking about.

    I wouldn't deny there is a sense of entitlement among some of the wealthy just as there is among some of the long term unemployed.I also think the public sector have been on the receiving end of press poisoning.There are good and bad people in all sectors, all social classes etc.As is always the case it is the honest people, mostly from the low and middle income earners, who foot the bill.


  • #94
    Shan75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 484 ✭✭Shan75


    Tony EH wrote: »
    Hmmmm...assuming that there are actually work to "take up". The biggest problem now facing the near 1/2 million unemployed in this Country is the severe lack of jobs available.

    Indeed there are no jobs available and almost everybody I know who have lost their jobs have been unable to find work.Not reducing the minimum wage isn't going to help this situation though.


  • #95
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Shan75 wrote: »
    ... As is always the case it is the honest people, mostly from the low and middle income earners, who foot the bill.

    To be fair (for some people here, a novel idea) it should be acknowledged that there are plenty of honest high earners as well. Some of them don't even look for loopholes to enable them to avoid tax.


  • #96
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #97
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    astrofool wrote: »
    But there are more french tax exiles due to their punitive tax for high earners, causing a net decrease in the amount of tax taken by the government.

    Are you saying Ireland should follow this route? Or are you saying that the high earners will stay in Ireland, paying punitive rates of tax, rather than leave the country?

    How can you call a progressive taxation system "punative"?
    And even if all the rich are leaving France they still enjoy a higher standard of living and less inequality.
    If it means that Sean Quinn or even Bono wants to leave Ireland if the same came to be true here...don't let the doorknob hit ye!


  • #98
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,046 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    Shan75 wrote: »
    Lowering social welfare payments in line with deflation is necessary because we are borrowing heavily to fund the social welfare bill.

    The social welfare payments only just came in line with the increases in the cost of living in this Country very recently. Also, simply brandishing "deflation" about like it's an "across the board" occurance is misleading. SOME prices have come down slightly. Even so, this Country remains an extremely expensive place to live. Lowering social welfare payments will only compound that difficulty in expense.
    Shan75 wrote: »
    Prices of basic goods and services are dropping all the time...

    This is a misleading statement though. SOME prices of goods have dropped. Some haven't.
    Shan75 wrote: »
    I know quite a number of people who have lost their jobs recently and are going back to college.

    With whose help? They aren't doing it on the dole alone, that's for sure.
    Shan75 wrote: »
    The state need to be funding the training courses.In other words investing in the future rather than throwing money into a black hole.We should only provide financial benefits up to covering the basics people need to live on.

    That's an extremely miserable attitude though. It also suggests that people on the dole are somehow living the life of Reilly on their E200 a week. It just isn't the case.

    In addition, a decent Social Welfare system is not a "black hole" as you put it. It is essential to the equalibrium of this Country, simply because the political will or intelligence isn't there to create long term and sustainable emplyment prospects for the entire Country and never has been.


  • #99
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    Shan75 wrote: »
    I wouldn't deny there is a sense of entitlement among some of the wealthy just as there is among some of the long term unemployed.I also think the public sector have been on the receiving end of press poisoning.There are good and bad people in all sectors, all social classes etc.As is always the case it is the honest people, mostly from the low and middle income earners, who foot the bill.

    I'm more concerned about the top because they are the ones who run things (into the ground) and rip me off. I'm not so concerned by the few dole cheats who cost me very little in comparison.


  • #100
    djpbarry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Shan75 wrote: »
    As is always the case it is the honest people, mostly from the low and middle income earners, who foot the bill.
    Except of course the bulk of low income earners who don't pay any income tax.


  • #101
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #102
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Of course all this talk of inequality ignores the fact that some people fail to do anything with their lives, and their resultant inequality relative to an ambitious person is frankly just.


  • #103
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Living in a high-income household, I'm quite happy to say just that. It's not pure altruism, either. It makes for a better society, and that is in my interest. [Herself, who does not post here, but has a vested interest in this question, agrees with me.]


  • #104
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    turgon wrote: »
    Of course all this talk of inequality ignores the fact that some people fail to do anything with their lives, and their resultant inequality relative to an ambitious person is frankly just.

    Actually you are ignoring the fact that inequality hurts society as a whole...and yes it is a fact. You also seem to think that just because someone has a lot of money that they necessarily have done something to actually earn it. Paris Hilton springs to mind.


  • #105
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Is it then ok to borrow billions to give welfare to people that have tanked the economy and possibly have committed crimes and then lined their pockets even further?


  • #106
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    sovtek wrote: »
    Actually you are ignoring the fact that inequality hurts society as a whole...and yes it is a fact.

    Want to give me some rationale behind that "fact," or is another axiom you will insist I must accept?


  • #107
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Its more like a reflection of reality. The fact is progressive taxation leaves a more healthy society and benefits the society as a whole...even those top earners.
    A regressive taxation system leads to "covetousness and resentment" as you say.


  • #108
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #109
    astrofool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,502 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    kickoutthejams wrote: »
    I'm slightly sceptical of this, given that French/Belgian tax rates are fairly similar.
    On top of this, the French nationals would have to pay additional sums on certain goods (like property), if, as you say, they went to Brussels.

    Wiki has the details, with citations, read about the "Solidarity tax on wealth".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_France

    The article this was mentioned in, with examples, was in The Economist (I'll see if I can dig it up, but no promises).


  • #110
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    turgon wrote: »
    Of course all this talk of inequality ignores the fact that some people fail to do anything with their lives, and their resultant inequality relative to an ambitious person is frankly just.

    - Some people are born ugly; that does not make them worse or less deserving as people, but it plays merry hell with their aspirations to a career in modelling.
    - Some people are born to improvident parents, and their capacity to achieve a high-level professional skill such as medicine is unrealisable.
    - Some people have long-term health problems, and are unable to advance their careers.
    - Some people are unlucky in business, or the victims of ruthless competitors who do not behave honourably.

    - Some people are wealthy because of inheritance.
    - Some get rich through dishonest or dishonourable behaviour.
    - Some people are just lucky.

    The possession of wealth or the receipt of a high income is a matter of fact. It is not a moral measure. The rich are not better people; they are merely richer.


  • #111
    Lockstep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,026 ✭✭✭Lockstep


    astrofool wrote: »
    Wiki has the details, with citations, read about the "Solidarity tax on wealth".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taxation_in_France

    The article this was mentioned in, with examples, was in The Economist (I'll see if I can dig it up, but no promises).

    I read the Solidarity tax on wealth bit; I don't really see how it bolsters your argument aside from "Many people on the political left consider it a symbol of solidarity, while many on the right argue that it encourages entrepreneurs to leave France."

    I remain sceptical that French people are hightailing it to Brussels (Belgium has one of the highest taxes within the EU)


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  • #112
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    turgon wrote: »
    Want to give me some rationale behind that "fact," or is another axiom you will insist I must accept?

    Wanna read a good book? The Spirit Level by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett deals with the question. It's not an opinion piece; it deals with data.

    [The secondary title might give you an idea of what it concludes: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better.]


  • #113
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Wanna read a good book? The Spirit Level by Richard Wilkinson and Kate Pickett deals with the question. It's not an opinion piece; it deals with data.

    [The secondary title might give you an idea of what it concludes: Why More Equal Societies Almost Always Do Better.]

    Thanks thats exactly what I was looking for in response to turgon.


  • #114
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #115
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #116
    Tony EH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,046 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    This is meaningless and it's over a period of 10 years!


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Only you have mentioned "substitute".

    In addition, you're giving a false representation of where the borrowed millions are going.


  • #117
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    The funny thing about quantitative methods is that, if used properly, they work the same way, whatever the qualification of the user.


  • #118
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #119
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


  • #120
    sovtek
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,485 ✭✭✭sovtek


    donegalfella wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    The same place that €90 billion is going to come from except in your case it's going to be spent more wisely.


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  • #121
    Shan75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 484 ✭✭Shan75


    djpbarry wrote: »
    Except of course the bulk of low income earners who don't pay any income tax.

    Not true.All earners are now paying the income Levy.I know up to the introduction of the Levy there were people outside the Tax Net.However they were still contributing to the economy by working and not drawing benefits.I realise it is different now of course as it is almost impossible to get a job and the majority of the people on the dole do not want to be on it.


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