Ireland - Still A Backward Country?

Sulmac · 18-07-2009 04:09PM

To look at each issue separately:

Abortion still illegal

This may change with the European Court of Human Rights case coming up, let's hope they can pave the way to legalising it for rape/health/incest/whatever other scenario at the very least, if not on demand until a certain date.

The only two other European countries with similar abortion laws are Malta and The Vatican.

Pornography still illegal

A technicality really, though a change in the law/IFCO rules would be welcomed. Plus, the internet REALLY undermines any attempts to ban it.

Same sex civil unions or any official regognition of same sex relationships illegal

The civil unions bill should [partially] solve this problem from the start of next year. However, I would prefer [and most people would, from polls] full same sex civil marriage with adoption/IVF rights. Labour (as well as Sinn Féin, and the Green Party before they got into power) seem dedicated to this, and chances are it'd have to be part of any coalition deal for them to form a government, which is very likely after the next election. Too bad the Greens sacrificed more of their principles and settled for a halfway house.

As mentioned before, only some European countries have same sex marriage, although many do have civil unions.

Blasphemy law introduced

Like porn being "illegal", it isn't/won't be enforced. Plus, McAleese might get the Supreme Court to declare it null and void (they did already in 1999), so there's still hope. Also, many other European countries still have blasphemy laws - and like us don't enforce it.

Debtors still sent to prison

Declared unconstitutional by the High Court just last month. However, the government is preparing legislation to allow debtors who refuse to pay off their debts be jailed if they actually do have the money.

Most schools still controlled by religious orders

Technically yes, but in reality the church has little influence nowadays (except in pissing away time on preparation for the likes of communion/confirmation, which is a complete joke). Plus, this will most likely change following the creation of a National Forum on School Patronage by the government. Again, Labour seem adamant about change and would probably want this as part of any coalition deal. Even the damn church itself wants major change, just listen to the Archbishop of Dublin. I myself would prefer all public services (health and education) to be secular and controlled at a local level.

Churches have (varying levels of) influence in education in many other countries too.

Grossly underfunded mental health care

Well this is just shameful and needs to be changed immediately - especially the way minors are treated.

No State provided childcare facilities

Although most people (myself included) would prefer otherwise, it is important to remember that many other countries don't have the likes of child benefit, especially one as generous as our own. This is meant to help pay for childcare among other things - though in reality is a mere contribution.

Yes we have work to do to become more progressive. I think most people are ready for it already, but government ambivalence means at the moment we have little chance of anything actually happening quickly. But remember, we have come a long way in twenty years in regards to contraception, divorce, gay rights and even abortion laws.

Ireland is also ahead of many other countries when it comes to things such as the plastic bag tax, the smoking ban (and the tobacco advertising ban this month, first in the EU), and the banning of "old style" lightbulbs. In these cases, other countries have followed our lead. So cheer up, it's not all bad! :pac:

The_Minister · 18-07-2009 07:42PM

JupiterKid wrote: »

[*]Abortion still illegal

Except it isn't really. You can head over to Englandfor €40 flight (if you get lucky), or a ferry for €60 (just checked).
Someone said on Boards recently that if Britain wasn't an hour away we would have legalised abortion a long time ago, and tbh it's true.
Even if abortion was legal, it would be cheaper to go to England for an abortion than get a train from down the country. Plus, due to higher doctors wages, the procedure would cost more.
Abortion is effectively legal in Ireland.

JupiterKid wrote: »

[*]Pornography still illegal

Nope. Unrated DVDs are illegal. Burn a DVD of porn off the internet and wave it at a Garda, and they can't take it.
Porn is legal in Ireland (except kiddie porn obviously).

JupiterKid wrote: »

[*]Same sex civil unions or any official regognition of same sex relationships illegal

This is being brought in right now.

JupiterKid wrote: »

[*]Blasphemy law introduced

Has been there for decades, and never used.
Miles better then Holocaust Denial legislation.

JupiterKid wrote: »

[*]Debtors still sent to prison

Not quite AFAIK. Judges, if they believe a person can pay, will make an order to pay.
I that order is not complied with, then they go to jail.
They go to jail normally for breaking the order, not for failing to repay a debt.

JupiterKid wrote: »

[*]Most schools still controlled by religious orders

Religious denominations running schools is common throughout the world, including the developed world.
There is nothing inherantly seedy in it, so long as they are run well and comply with the standards set.

JupiterKid wrote: »

[*]Grossly underfunded mental health care

Whatdoyouwant?
People care more about physical health then mental. Thats where the money goes.
Mental health got lots of money in the boom and very little really approved.
The reason is that you can cure most physical illnesses in a short amount of time, whereas mental treatment takes ages, and rarely results in a 'cure'.
Very little return is made on the money spent.

JupiterKid wrote: »

[*]No State provided childcare facilities

:rolleyes: Parents of children are given money to pay for childcare. It doesn't cover all the cost but it comes close.

el_weirdo wrote: »

And that makes us "forward" then?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8150616.stm
I think we do better than most.

netwhizkid wrote: »

I think I was only on the lgb forum once and generally have little to do with homosexuals as there is a "guilty* by association" culture attached in our society.

I've posted there many times, and AFAIK, no-one thinks I'm gay.

Aard wrote: »

Am I the only one who is stumped when people bring up the "well if we allow gay marriage, why not bestiality?" argument? I mean, just, wtf.

The argument is normally for incest and polygamy, both of which are hard to justify banning once gay marriage is accepted.
However, I recall seeeing a documentary on bestiality on either Channel4 or More 4. There was a man who regularly had sex with a donkey. He argued that she consented, and she was so large that she could have crushed him if she objected.

Aard wrote: »

I believe that before funding changes, society's attitudes need to change and realise that people with mental illnesses are not black sheep who should be left and forgotten about.

I know this isn't a tolerant thing to say, but I hate when someone who is obviously crazy is on the bus with me, ranting and staring.

thelordofcheese wrote: »

yes, but to you liberal is anything to the left of genghis Khan.

Genghis Khan was neither left nor right, but if he was anything he was left.

Look lads, don't get me wrong.
I support prostitution, euthanasia etc. I'm damn liberal (check the sig.)
I just don't think Ireland is as big a ****hole as some of you think.

Aard · 18-07-2009 07:51PM

The_Minister wrote: »

I know this isn't a tolerant thing to say, but I hate when someone who is obviously crazy is on the bus with me, ranting and staring.

Depending on the mood I'm in, that sort of thing pisses me off too. What I'm talking about are things like depression: there is virtually no information given out about it to parents and teachers. When a teenager is depressed, they're just told things to the effect of, "Just buck yourself up." I'm speaking from experience on this. If somebody is on medication, or has to be hospitalised, the family rarely say, "Oh, he's just fighting a bout of depression." They're more likely to say, "He's got the flu." Again, from experience. I don't know the answer, but I do know that if social attitudes don't change, then a lot MORE people will end up with mental problems.

The Aussie · 18-07-2009 08:02PM

galwayrush wrote: »

So FF were lying all along when they constantly told us we were the envy of Europe.:eek:

Um, yes.

Backwards, slightly.

Slow on the uptake that your not as "Mighty/Grand" as you once thaught.

Dudess · 18-07-2009 08:16PM

Um... I never thought I was "mighty/grand" (Isn't it incredible?! Different members of a particular nationality can have differing points of view to each other!) but cheers for the condescension anyway.

diverdriver · 18-07-2009 09:18PM

This country is backward. For a while I thought with the Celtic Tiger and all that we we were progressing but it was all a big con. Anywhere you care to look we are behind any comparable country in Europe and even some third world countries.

Another example, look at our roads, name two cities linked entirely by motorway? Unless you call Athlone a proper city, then it's none. This is the 21st century for crying out loud and we haven't even got the kind of infrastructure others had in the 1960s. Meanwhile off the motorways you can lose fillings from your teeth with the state of the roads. Why do we have difficulty with road making?

What have we got to show for all the years of the so called Celtic Tiger? Well massive unemployment and debt, a bloated inefficient and incompetent public service and a government so corrupt and full of itself that it doesn't even understand they caused much of it.

The one thing that saved this country from falling into revolution for many years was the safety valve of emigration. Without it we would be a seething mass of discontent. I wonder now about the new unemployed and what they will think. Emigration is no longer the option it once was and the new generation of unemployed might actually believe that emigration is the last resort because unlike the last generation who grew up knowing that emigration wasn't a lifestyle choice but a neccessity. Whole classes would graduate from college and go to England at one stage. Does anyone thing the current generation will put up with that as an idea?

I have come to believe that when the rest of the world drags itself out of this recession, we will be left behind because quite simply there was no substance to our boom. We can't build ourselves out of this one. On top of that manufacturing is dying out because we priced ourselves out of the market. We're screwed and there is going to be big trouble ahead as a whole generation brought up to believe they would always have money and a job, realises that there are no jobs.

The clock has been reset, not to the eighties but to the thirties. But this the time the British won't be taking our young people though. I could easily see fascism taking hold here.

diverdriver · 18-07-2009 09:24PM

Minister you are living in cloud cuckoo land.

Parents of children are given money to pay for childcare. It doesn't cover all the cost but it comes close.

As a parent I tell you it doesn't even come close. Not by any stretch of the imagination. In many cases it's simply cheaper to give up work than pay for childcare. For many on low incomes it's actually impossible to work without having a relative to mind your kids for free.

asdasd · 18-07-2009 09:29PM

Another example, look at our roads, name two cities linked entirely by motorway? Unless you call Athlone a proper city, then it's none. This is the 21st century for crying out loud and we haven't even got the kind of infrastructure others had in the 1960s. Meanwhile off the motorways you can lose fillings from your teeth with the state of the roads. Why do we have difficulty with road making?

We will have about 700Kms of completed motorway in about a year, and that is plent for an island this size. Anyway, off topic. we are talking social issues. Saudia Arabia has plenty of good roads but would fail the "progressive" test of the OP.

I have come to believe that when the rest of the world drags itself out of this recession, we will be left behind because quite simply there was no substance to our boom. We can't build ourselves out of this one. On top of that manufacturing is dying out because we priced ourselves out of the market. We're screwed and there is going to be big trouble ahead as a whole generation brought up to believe they would always have money and a job, realises that there are no jobs.

There was plenty of substance to our boom pre-2001, and that will continue. Manufacturing is dying out across the Western World with the possible exception of Germany. I think we are still fairly heavily industrial comparatively.

The clock has been reset, not to the eighties but to the thirties.

ROFL.

But this the time the British won't be taking our young people though. I could easily see fascism taking hold here.

Given that fascism never has taken hold here, and that the situation is not like the 30's, and there are few right wing groups in this country than any other country in Europe, I would think you wrong.

You are mostly off-topic anyway, but I felt the need to answer this kind of poor-mouth ****. That is what is like the 30's.

MikeC101 · 18-07-2009 10:50PM

diverdriver wrote: »

Anywhere you care to look we are behind any comparable country in Europe and even some third world countries.

Specifically, what, and where? With regards to third world countries, which ones are we behind, and in what regard?

diverdriver wrote: »

I could easily see fascism taking hold here.

Won't happen - look to the recent MEP elections and see how we voted then.

I can't see Youth Defense marching their way to a glorious new theocratic state any time soon.

Perspective diverdriver, perspective.

Purple Gorilla · 19-07-2009 01:16AM

This is annoying me now..

We've been a first world country for f*cking 15 years and people expect us to be up there with France and Germany etc.! Rome wasn't built in a day etc.

galwayrush · 19-07-2009 01:22AM

Purple Gorilla wrote: »

This is annoying me now..

We've been a first world country for f*cking 15 years and people expect us to be up there with France and Germany etc.! Rome wasn't built in a day etc.

We seem to me more dismantling the place atm though.:rolleyes:

jaffa20 · 19-07-2009 01:40AM

TheInquisitor wrote: »

These are things i hope don't change.

Homosexuals have enough rights. What do they bring to the table...nothing. Main reason for any mammel to be here is to have kids.

And the OP's point is proven.

Btw, gay people can actually reproduce. They just don't swing that way. The world is over populated as it is anyway :rolleyes:

GLaDOS · 19-07-2009 02:07AM

In terms of religiously controlled schools, I know there's been plenty of threads on the Athiesm and Agnostism forum about people who do not wish to baptise their children but are considering it due to the fact that Catholic schools can give preference to Catholic children.

Pretty backwards imo. I know there are secular schools, but these arn't always a reasonable option, due to distance etc.

Ickle Magoo · 19-07-2009 03:05AM

ScienceNerd wrote: »

In terms of religiously controlled schools, I know there's been plenty of threads on the Athiesm and Agnostism forum about people who do not wish to baptise their children but are considering it due to the fact that Catholic schools can give preference to Catholic children.

Pretty backwards imo. I know there are secular schools, but these arn't always a reasonable option, due to distance etc.

I agree.

There are 56 Educate Together schools, 26 of which are in the greater Dublin area - not much choice for the rest of the country. It's argued that parents can lobby for a local school but by the time you have kids and are thinking about schools, you lobby and try to get together funding, a building and staff - the child in question is almost past primary education age. It's a laborious process, never mind the issue of trying to get into schools if you have to move house.

The education system, the roads, the health system, the lack of modern infrastructure in general, the lagging behind in technological advancements, etc, etc. This from a country that had money thrown at it for years from the EU and claimed to have an economic "tiger" on the prowl - what's to show for it? Peanuts, certainly compared with where Ireland should be & what she should have. Unemployment, negative equity and a nice motor. Fab. :rolleyes:

I don't think Irish people are backwards at all, far from it in my experience - but ye should be a damn sight angrier at what your fellow voters & their choice of politicians have allowed to happen here.

mateo · 19-07-2009 03:25AM

TheInquisitor wrote: »

A very very small minority. Although i admit when i'm mistaken, yes bi-sexual people can indeed! Actually as a point of clarification i have yet to find any info on what % of a country / area are homosexual?

Where did i say they should have equal rights? Free speech is not equal rights. I couldn't give a sh1te what people say . Say whatever you want, call me whatever you want i don't care.

But why the f*ck do you care so much about gay people??

Capt'n Midnight · 19-07-2009 11:37AM

asdasd wrote: »

Cant people declare bankruptcy in Ireland?

only if you can afford the fees involved :rolleyes:

galwayrush · 19-07-2009 11:42AM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

only if you can afford the fees involved :rolleyes:

I know someone who doesn't give a **** about going bankrupt, because he has nothing,well, no assets in his name, although his three kids under 16 and his wife own 14 houses and various other properties between them.:rolleyes:

19-07-2009 11:59AM

galwayrush wrote: »

I know someone who doesn't give a **** about going bankrupt, because he has nothing,well, no assets in his name, although his three kids under 16 and his wife own 14 houses and various other properties between them.:rolleyes:

The sooner the law is amended to sort out that kind of paddywackery the better! :mad:

CAB anyone!

goldenbrown · 19-07-2009 12:45PM

blasphemy legislation, is only the tip of the iceberg....alarm bells rang for me when Mr. Cowen made a speech in offally on being selected as our leader of government by about 35 Irish citizens, that the 'real people' of Ireland were back in charge.......

plenty real people of Ireland will leave in disgust in the next 20 years....some of us will stay and fight it out by civil means, because in tough economic times we get hitlers, mussolinis, franco's and our own idea of local christianity that would cause Jesus of Nazerath reach for that whip he used in fury to drive gombeen men out of a temple which was not here for them to 'make a poun goin forward..' but was there for
everybody...
equally...
regardless of their personal view of right and wrong..

no passaran:)

mcwhirter · 19-07-2009 01:36PM

Sulmac wrote: »

Ireland is also ahead of many other countries when it comes to things such as the plastic bag tax, the smoking ban (and the tobacco advertising ban this month, first in the EU), and the banning of "old style" lightbulbs. In these cases, other countries have followed our lead. So cheer up, it's not all bad! :pac:

Ireland is leading with banning, but anything else?

galwayrush · 19-07-2009 01:43PM

mcwhirter wrote: »

Ireland is leading with banning, but anything else?

Politicians expenses and rewarding incompetence with massive pensions and golden handshakes., we're way ahead there, only marginally behind a few banana republics.

MikeC101 · 19-07-2009 02:24PM

goldenbrown wrote: »

plenty real people of Ireland will leave in disgust in the next 20 years....some of us will stay and fight it out by civil means, because in tough economic times we get hitlers, mussolinis, franco's

Is anyone else getting just a *little bit* tired of all the dire warnings of impending fascism due to bad economic times?

It's not as if we see the economy has contracted a point over 7% and pull on our jackboots and armbands. There have been other economic depressions since the 30s....

Min · 19-07-2009 02:47PM

I think the liberal agenda is backward, it is lets be sheep and legalise this that and the other since such a country has legal - abortion/euthanasia/gay marriage/insert whatever....
Lets be progressive and be sheep, lets be Dolly the sheep, a nation who cannot think for itself but have liberals who feel we are backward since we do not bleat like some other countries, lets be liberal and make ourselves clones of other countries.

No thanks.

Min · 19-07-2009 02:48PM

MikeC101 wrote: »

Is anyone else getting just a *little bit* tired of all the dire warnings of impending fascism due to bad economic times?

It's not as if we see the economy has contracted a point over 7% and pull on our jackboots and armbands. There have been other economic depressions since the 30s....

We won't have the money to pay for a dictatorship.

thelordofcheese · 19-07-2009 02:54PM

Min wrote: »

I think the liberal agenda is backward, it is lets be sheep and legalise this that and the other since such a country has legal - abortion/euthanasia/gay marriage/insert whatever....
Lets be progressive and be sheep, lets be Dolly the sheep, a nation who cannot think for itself but have liberals who feel we are backward since we do not bleat like some other countries, lets be liberal and make ourselves clones of other countries.

No thanks.

Hey, guess what, the word 'liberal'
A] Isn't a dirty word, no matter how much you think so
B] does not mean what you think it means

Also, i'd like to point out that most of these topics that you feel are part of a "liberal" agenda, such as abortion, euthanasia and gay marriage are by and large, illegal in most of the world. To follow your (very awful) reasoning, we'd be sheep if we didn't legalise them, because we'd also be making ourselves clones of other countries.

MikeC101 · 19-07-2009 02:57PM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

To follow your (very awful) reasoning, we'd be sheep if we didn't legalise them, because we'd also be making ourselves clones of other countries.

So....we should legalise them, then we wouldn't be sheep! Right?

Wait...maybe that's exactly what they want us to do..

*cue ominous music*

MikeC101 · 19-07-2009 02:58PM

Min wrote: »

We won't have the money to pay for a dictatorship.

Well the sales guy I was talking to said that sure, there's an initial outlay for the uniforms, propoganda and the like, but the dictatorships he had on offer would begin to pay for themselves within the year.

thelordofcheese · 19-07-2009 03:01PM

MikeC101 wrote: »

So....we should legalise them, then we wouldn't be sheep! Right?

-_-

The fact that i called mins reasoning "very awful" might suggest i'd favour us making up our own mind, and pleading that we should decided based on what other countries do or don't do is backward ass retarded.

No? Wasn't obvious enough?

Damn.

MikeC101 · 19-07-2009 03:08PM

thelordofcheese wrote: »

-_-

The fact that i called mins reasoning "very awful" might suggest i'd favour us making up our own mind, and pleading that we should decided based on what other countries do or don't do is backward ass retarded.

No? Wasn't obvious enough?

Damn.

Hence I included the "To follow your (very awful) reasoning," part when I quoted it, and also stuck in the "Wait...maybe that's exactly what they want us to do.. "

Wasn't obvious enough?

Damn.

thelordofcheese · 19-07-2009 03:11PM

MikeC101 wrote: »

Hence I included the "To follow your (very awful) reasoning," part when I quoted it (which you cut out when quoting me)

Quotes don't tree 'bout these parts, and i wasn't going to copy-paste your drivel.

Ireland - Still A Backward Country?

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