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Generation Yes

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  • 16-07-2009 7:33am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    This time round, though, it seems that people like COIR are going to be the mainstay of the No campaigns, which means that they'll be getting the air time and page space. That may change between here and October, but it seems that way to me so far.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Well, its what was done with Justin Barrett in the Nice II treaty. A very minor, unelected part of the No campaign became the centre of media attention, when elected groups on the No Side like the Greens (pre Government/with morals aledgedly) and SF got very little.

    By associating the No vote with a lunatic fringe, and pumping money into groups like Generation Yes via the Dept of foreign affairs, its an attempt to force the issue in October.

    Back to the FUD - guilt by association


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    Well, its what was done with Justin Barrett in the Nice II treaty. A very minor, unelected part of the No campaign became the centre of media attention, when elected groups on the No Side like the Greens (pre Government/with morals aledgedly) and SF got very little.

    SF gets plenty, and got plenty in the last referendum, although Libertas got more - and it's worth bearing in mind that there are plenty of people for whom SF were and are anathema. If the main thrust of the opposition is going to come from COIR et al, then that's going to be reflected in the coverage - and so far there doesn't seem to be anyone else making the same amount of noise. As for Justin Barrett, he didn't have any difficulty staying out of the spotlight last time.
    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    By associating the No vote with a lunatic fringe, and pumping money into groups like Generation Yes via the Dept of foreign affairs, its an attempt to force the issue in October.

    Back to the FUD - guilt by association

    Presumably you'll be able to offer some evidence that the DFA funds Generation Yes? As opposed to FUD, and guilt by association?

    regards,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Presumably you'll be able to offer some evidence that the DFA funds Generation Yes?

    The funding was reported in the Pheonix mag, May or June.
    Not something I lug around with me, but I will try to get a reference, on leave next week so will have a hunt when I'm back in Ireland - unless someone else has it.
    Basically an article taking the piss that the funds from DFA issued to some geezer whose beyond retirement age to manage generation yes - hope it rings a bell for someone who can look it up


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33 storinius


    Just to let you know, I am involved in Generation YES, and I can categorically say that we receive no money from DFA. Nor could we under the law.

    But why would the Phoenix let the facts get in the way of a good story...?!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    If you are that sure then sue them, simple.

    As a matter of interest, where does your funding come from?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33 storinius


    Not going to sue them, there are only 2 months to the referendum, and we are pretty busy!!

    Our money comes from donations. To be honest, most of the stuff that we do is run by volunteers so it isn't that expensive a campaign.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    Sorry, I stand corrected, apparently the funding for Generation Yes from DFA (and other publicly funded bodies) is indirect, and is rated as a membership fee.

    ======

    From the Phoenix

    THE Svengali behind the team coalescing to front the YES to Lisbon Mark II campaign is headed by Brendan Halligan (73) chairman of the Institute for International and European Affairs (IIEA), which receives thousands of Euro from nearly every government department and state funded body yearly.

    Following the disastrous effort of the Irish Alliance for Europe, headed by Ruairi Quinn, in the first referendum (the one that came up with the wrong result) it was determined that the next effort would keep politicians in the background and that personalities from civic life — youth, women etc — would front the campaign.

    However, following efforts to unearth such interesting celebs, the Eurocrats realised that many such people were usually unable to answer half-serious questions about the EU or the Lisbon Treaty.

    As a result, four rather tired Euro political hacks have formed the new team to lead the campaign with former president of the European Parliament Pat Cox the main ‘personality’, UCD Professor Brigid Laffan the academic, former Fianna Fail general secretary Martin Mackin (now with PR company Q4) the organisational brains, and Halligan the master strategist.

    This team plus other YES campaigners met the minister for Europe Dick Roche and officials from the Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) at Iveagh House last Tuesday to plan their campaign.

    Also present were members of Generation Yes, a youth group set up by Halligan (73), which involves young FFers, Labour and Green Party members.

    At least one of Halligan’s employees at his consultancy CIPA (main activity, lobbying against restrictions on tobacco in Europe down the years) helped to set up this group.

    Halligan would be well known to the DFA, which has been funding his IIEA for over 15 years — last recorded contribution, €32,626 for 2007.

    Halligan’s financial MO is to secure ‘membership’ subscriptions of €6,000 pa from nearly all government departments and state agencies.

    It does not publish accounts and only parliamentary questions from Independent TD Finian McGrath elicited information from each government department earlier this year about the extent of their largesse.

    In total, the IIEA received over €820,000 in 2006 with much of this coming from public funds.

    The IIEA used to publish detailed accounts but ceased doing so after Goldhawk published a series of articles 8 about the extent to which the Institute was funded by the public (see The Phoenix, 27/9/02 and passim).
    The IIEA is unashamedly pro-Lisbon and has produced literature and propaganda in favour of all European treaties (although Halligan began political life as an opponent of the European Community in the early 70s).

    In April of last year, the Institute was reported as saying it could not take sides in the Lisbon referendum as it was a charitable institution in receipt of public money — the McKenna judgment forbids the use of such funds.
    Thus, Halligan’s Herculean efforts for Lisbon are purely voluntary and unselfish.

    :cool:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    After the Irish people rejected Lisbon politicians refused to take No for an answer.

    Que the entrance of Brendan Halligan. Halligan is best known for his role as chairman of the institute for International and European Affairs an unashamedly pro-Lisbon body which produces pro EU literature at the tax payers expense.

    In 2006 alone the institute for International and European Affairs received over €800,000 in funding from the state.

    Halligan is also a lobbyist in Brussels who opposes tobacco restrictions.

    After a meeting with Dick Roche, Halligan was tasked with forming a pro-government youth group that would appear independent.

    Unsuprisingly this group would have to seem completely disconnected from the politicians.

    The group would have young ambitous articulate kids at the front but in reality would be controlled by Halligan aged 73.

    And so Generation Yes was born.

    Generation Yes have been known to be collaborating closely with IIEA since the front was established.

    Since then IBEC have been kind enough to let Generation YES use their premises for printing literature and holding meetings.

    It is hard to say how much funding Generation Yes receive indirectly from the state through the IIEA but what is certain is that Generation Yes are subsidised indirectly and substancially by the state.

    ================

    First the Laval/Irish Ferries issues - now professional lobbiests steering the political agenda.
    Its seems more and more we are heading in the direction of the mess that the US is trying to get away from


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 33 storinius


    Is this a Phoenix quote? Hilarious if it is.

    DFA and the IIEA are not members of Gen YES. And we don't actually have a membership fee, for individuals or any other body.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    First the Laval/Irish Ferries issues - now professional lobbiests steering the political agenda.
    Next we’ll be having people attempting to portray two completely unrelated subjects as successive links in a chain of events that ultimately leads to Ireland descending into some sort of dystopian society, in an attempt to foster resentment towards the EU.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    So Brendan Halligan I take it from you replies is not running or funding G Y in any way?

    IIEA have a membership fee, and according to the article - manage and run G Y!

    BTW - Could mods please split the thread on G Y funding?

    Sorry it has gone so far off track


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    So Brendan Halligan I take it from you replies is not running or funding G Y in any way?

    IIEA have a membership fee, and according to the article - manage and run G Y!

    So the extent of the evidence is a Phoenix article...
    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    BTW - Could mods please split the thread on G Y funding?

    Sorry it has gone so far off track

    I'm not quite convinced it's worth it, given the only 'evidence' is a Phoenix article! Still, there's no need for this one to go further off-topic. The Phoenix has spoken, and Generation Yes appear to have responded by laughing heartily. Is there anything more to say?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Is there anything more to say?

    Well, an answer on the question of Brendan Halligan's relationship with GY would be good.

    Is he or his IIEA running or funding G Y in any way?

    Are they using funds given to them by the state to fund, promote, print material for or provide assistance to GY?

    I'm curious


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    Well, an answer on the question of Brendan Halligan's relationship with GY would be good.

    Is he or his IIEA running or funding G Y in any way?

    Are they using funds given to them by the state to fund, promote, print material for or provide assistance to GY?

    I'm curious

    Well, storinius can feel free to answer those questions, although I think you'll find he's answering them again. If the state funded Generation Yes, that would be a breach of the McKenna judgement and would be a very serious matter. Be careful what you claim here please - the Phoenix is happy enough to take on libel cases, but boards.ie isn't. In particular, if you're going to imply that an organisation like the IIEA is funding Generation Yes outside the legally allowed limits, don't, because that's an allegation that the IIEA is breaking the law, which would be libellous.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Well, storinius can feel free to answer those questions, although I think you'll find he's answering them again. If the state funded Generation Yes, that would be a breach of the McKenna judgement and would be a very serious matter. Be careful what you claim here please - the Phoenix is happy enough to take on libel cases, but boards.ie isn't. In particular, if you're going to imply that an organisation like the IIEA is funding Generation Yes outside the legally allowed limits, don't, because that's an allegation that the IIEA is breaking the law, which would be libellous.

    moderately,
    Scofflaw


    Well, apparently as long as the money goes from membership subscriptions of €6,000 pa from nearly all government departments and state agencies through the IIEA and CIPA its perfectly legal.

    I guess once the tax payers money has been given to the IIEA as a membership subscription, its theirs and they can do what they like with it.

    Alledgedly the IIEA used to publish detailed accounts but ceased doing so after the Phoenix published a series of articles, 27/9/02 about the extent to which the Institute was funded by the public.

    Only parliamentary questions from Independent TD Finian McGrath elicited information from each government department earlier this year about the extent of their largesse.

    In total, the IIEA received over €820,000 in 2006 with much of this coming from public funds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    Well, apparently as long as the money goes from membership subscriptions of €6,000 pa from nearly all government departments and state agencies through the IIEA and CIPA its perfectly legal.

    I guess once the tax payers money has been given to the IIEA as a membership subscription, its theirs and they can do what they like with it.

    Alledgedly the IIEA used to publish detailed accounts but ceased doing so after the Phoenix published a series of articles, 27/9/02 about the extent to which the Institute was funded by the public.

    Only parliamentary questions from Independent TD Finian McGrath elicited information from each government department earlier this year about the extent of their largesse.

    In total, the IIEA received over €820,000 in 2006 with much of this coming from public funds.

    And that's all very interesting. Not really anything to do with Lisbon, though.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    This treaty is imortant, anything that affects the cosntitution is fundamental.

    I think it is very relevant as to who is funding such a prominent pro Lisbon group.

    Certainly as important as a group like COIR, or Libertas and their funding.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    This treaty is imortant, anything that affects the cosntitution is fundamental.

    I think it is very relevant as to who is funding such a prominent pro Lisbon group.

    Certainly as important as a group like COIR, or Libertas and their funding.

    Your post shows some evidence that the IIEA gets state funding, which I don't find at all unlikely - as far as I'm aware they also get EU funding. That's interesting, but irrelevant to Lisbon, because the IIEA doesn't take a stand on Lisbon, because of those very things.

    What your post doesn't demonstrate, but you appear to have adopted as a truth on the strength of your faith in the accuracy of Phoenix magazine's journalism, is that the IIEA has funded Generation Yes even up to the limits allowed by SIPO - which would be relevant to Lisbon.

    COIR's funding certainly would make for an interesting discussion - Bible Belt US, SPUC UK? They certainly have plenty of it - they ran a poster campaign down in Cork that must have cost a pretty penny.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    Well is the article correct?
    Did the IIEA found GY?

    Did Dick Roche task Mr.Halligan/IIEA/CIPA with forming a pro-government youth group that would appear independent?

    Does the IIEA or CIPA fund or partially fund G Y?

    I must say, when it comes to expenditure, the tshirts and website and events etc. for G Y do not come for free.

    I would also like to see COIRs funding, or indeed an answer on the allegations of Libertas funding.

    And again, I feel I need to say that I am not a supporter of either of the above.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    Well is the article correct?
    Did the IIEA found GY?

    Did Dick Roche task Mr.Halligan/IIEA/CIPA with forming a pro-government youth group that would appear independent?

    Does the IIEA or CIPA fund or partially fund G Y?

    I must say, when it comes to expenditure, the tshirts and website and events etc. for G Y do not come for free.

    I would also like to see COIRs funding, or indeed an answer on the allegations of Libertas funding.

    And again, I feel I need to say that I am not a supporter of either of the above.

    You asked the original question already, and a member of Generation Yes has answered it - no, the IIEA didn't found Generation Yes, they receive no meaningful funding from the IIEA or the government, and the Phoenix allegations are inaccurate.

    Short of constituting ourselves as a tribunal of enquiry, and launching an investigation into the funding of Lisbon campaign groups ourselves, we're not going to answer that question in this forum more definitively than storinius (and PHB) have already done.

    What I would suggest is that you feel free to do some investigation, and report what you find here. Repeatedly asking a question that has been answered and is unlikely to get a more detailed answer rapidly moves out of the realm of discussion towards soapboxing.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    Storinius answer was in relation to direct DFA funding.

    It would be nice to see his, or another G Y person give a clear answer to the question of indirect funding such as any IIEA/CIPA funding or involvement in the youth movement by Brendan Halligan.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    Storinius answer was in relation to direct DFA funding.

    It would be nice to see his, or another G Y person give a clear answer to the question of indirect funding such as any IIEA/CIPA funding or involvement in the youth movement by Brendan Halligan.

    Have you considered phoning them? Tell you what - you phone them, and I'll phone them!

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    Bit tricky considering I'm about 300 Natical miles from the nearest affordable phone - but will do at some stage.

    Anyway, prefer the banter and open debate here as opposed to he said she said!


  • Registered Users Posts: 43,311 ✭✭✭✭K-9


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    Bit tricky considering I'm about 300 Natical miles from the nearest affordable phone - but will do at some stage.

    Anyway, prefer the banter and open debate here as opposed to he said she said!

    I like Phoenix myself, buy it now and again for a bit of scandal, similar to the Sunday World really! :o

    I wouldn't just rely on it as proof though.

    Mad Men's Don Draper : What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    Bit tricky considering I'm about 300 Natical miles from the nearest affordable phone - but will do at some stage.

    Anyway, prefer the banter and open debate here as opposed to he said she said!

    Are you offshore? Dutch sector?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    storinius wrote: »
    Is this a Phoenix quote? Hilarious if it is.

    DFA and the IIEA are not members of Gen YES. And we don't actually have a membership fee, for individuals or any other body.

    it didn't say anything about membership


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,209 ✭✭✭ixtlan


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    Well is the article correct?
    Did the IIEA found GY?

    Actually the article does not say that it does. It's just implying that the money is leaking from one organisation to the other, but not saying so, so they can't really be sued over it. If they actually said this they would be accusing someone of breaking the law, and indeed logically they would have to present their evidence eto the guards, but to just imply makes suing much more difficult, and they know no one will sue.

    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    Did Dick Roche task Mr.Halligan/IIEA/CIPA with forming a pro-government youth group that would appear independent?

    The article doesn't say this either. It again implies that the while campaign is being organised by Dick Roche which I'm sure must be annoying to pat Cox who I'm sure is plenty capable of running his own campaign. It's not unreasonable for the Yes groups to have a meeting with the minister for EU affairs.

    I'm not a member of any group... yet. I was thinking I might volunteer for something. And I will contribute some money.

    Ix.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    ixtlan wrote: »
    It's not unreasonable for the Yes groups to have a meeting with the minister for EU affairs.

    I never said that, or asked that question. If GY meet the minister - thats one thing, I have no problem with that, it is the Fianna Fail agenda to push a Yes vote.

    The question was, and is did Brendan Halligan meet Minister Roche about founding or funding G Y?

    Was Brendan Halligan instrumental in the founding of GY?

    Does Brendan Halligan/IIEA/CIPA fund G Y?

    Are Brendan Halligan/IIEA/CIPA involved with G Y?

    Bear in mind that IIEA are funded with tax-payers money, an awful lot of tax payers money.
    In times when there are meant to be public service cutbacks like in hospitals, when we are borrowing 50m per day according to Morning Ireland this morning, one has to look at the financial set-up at IIEA

    Repeated demands for scrutiny of the institute’s finances are normally met with a blank silence.

    But recently TD Finian McGrath, demanded answers in a series of parliamentary questions to all fifteen government departments that have been funding the institute for nearly 20 years.

    In the early 90's, government departments to become corporate members of the IIEA, in most cases donating an annual sum of £1,000.
    Inflation would account only partially for the 500% circa increase in this stipend by 2008.
    According to twelve of the departments that responded to McGrath, each now donates an annual sum of €6.000 to the IIEA.

    The IIEA is a registered independent charity ie, it pays no taxes

    In January 2008 the Dept. of Arts, Sport and Tourism, under Seamus Brennan,decided not to renew membership “as part of an effort to reduce the department’s administrative costs”.

    The Department of Foreign Affairs more than compensated for this shortsighted, bureaucratic decision by donating €32,626 (over five times the corporate membership) to the institute in 2007.

    This was made up of €3,000 under the Communicating Europe Initiative and €23,626 for consolidated versions of the Lisbon Treaty.

    McGrath’s question about how much “taxpayers’ money” was given to the IIEA was in the context of the lead-up to the second referendum.

    In April 2008, the institute was reported as saying that it could not take sides in the Lisbon Treaty referendum as it was a charitable organisation, ie, it could not use taxpayers’ money to push its decidedly pro-Lisbon agenda.

    Then there are the plethora of tax funded government entities such as the Higher Education Authority, the local Government Management Services Board, the NESC and dozens of other taxpayer-funded organisations.

    Just why the DPP, the Attorney General and the Office of the Houses of the Oireachtas should be funding Halligan’s super quango is beyond me.

    And subscribers to the VHI may be equally curious to know why it is listed as an ongoing contributor to the institute.

    Since the Lisbon defeat, the IIEA has been busy preparing arguments in favour of
    a) a second referendum and
    b) the need for a YES vote this time round.

    In a lengthy tome sent to all Oireachtas members and hundreds of other decision makers (157 pages costing €20 a copy, courtesy of the taxpayer), the institute warns of catastrophe should Ireland fail to ratify the Lisbon Treaty next time round.

    If the government did not decide to seek ratification, the document argues, “the damage would be irreparable” for Europe itself, while the implications for Ireland “range from the disastrous to the catastrophic”.

    According to the IIEA if the electorate votes NO a second time, then Ireland might have to leave the EU; Irish farmers would lose out on CAP funding; we would lose all regional and any other EU funding; we might have to leave the euro currency and all foreign investment would be threatened — among other disasters.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    ...The question was, and is did Brendan Halligan meet Minister Roche about founding or funding G Y?

    Was Brendan Halligan instrumental in the founding of GY?

    Does Brendan Halligan/IIEA/CIPA fund G Y?

    Are Brendan Halligan/IIEA/CIPA involved with G Y?...

    You are conflating two things here.
    1. Brendan Halligan works for a body that receives public funding. That body is precluded from certain types of political activity.
    2. Brendan Halligan has some connection with a grouping that has a political purpose.

    From those two things, you construct a scenario that Halligan is channeling funds improperly from one body to another. I think you need a little more prima facie evidence before making that case, even by innuendo. You should bear in mind that Halligan has an entitlement to be politically active and it is not in the least surprising that he might wish to be.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 593 ✭✭✭Zuiderzee


    I'm not conflating anything! I would just like clarification on what appears to be a scooby doobious situation.

    The IIEA received over €820,000 in 2006, a great deal of this coming from public funds - and that was tax free as they are a charity.
    Now it seems they are involved in founding a Pro Lisbon grouping.

    Makes me very, very, very curious


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Zuiderzee wrote: »
    ... Now it seems they are involved in founding a Pro Lisbon grouping...

    What is your basis for making that claim?


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