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Legalise abortion

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Comments

  • #152
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    choice.

    that is what it comes down to - you have to trust people to make an informed choice

    it will or will not be their child - not yours.
    they have to leave with it and the joy or burden of the child - noy you.
    abortion happens - forcing women to travel just makes it worse and is a terrible thing to advocate

    you can be anti abortion and pro choice - that would be my stance.


  • #153
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    I should trust people whether or not to kill another person or not?

    Why can't we do this in real life?


  • #154
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I should trust people whether or not to kill another person or not?

    Why can't we do this in real life?

    what? :confused:
    you should.....

    we can and should..... and mostly do


  • #155
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    We trust people to choose whether or not to kill eachother without making it illegal?

    No... we make it illegal.


  • #156
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    we trust people not to kill each other - some do and that is why there is a punishment

    what is your point?


    this is about a choice or no choice - - it is not about pro life vs pro choice

    as i am pro life but pro choice also


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  • #157
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    My point is. I don't believe that someone elses right to life should be chosen by the mother.

    I don't believe that you can be pro-life, and then pro-choice over someone elses right to life, it doesn't make sense.


  • #158
    conchubhar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,653 ✭✭✭conchubhar1


    i believe women should be able to choose

    they will always put thought into it

    it is their body

    the option of a choice is never bad

    it is not as if abortion doesnt happen numerous times a year by irish women - by having it illegal in ireland you are solving nothing
    you are making it hard on these women and achieving nothing

    you are achieving a blissful ignorance and holding your moral heads high while they hold their heads low in shame and danger in foreign or street abortions

    the choice effects the mother and the father and family alone
    it is not up to you or anyone else to dictate that chocie - it is their bodies and their choice


  • #159
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    SLUSK wrote: »
    Did you ever read Freakonomics? In this book they make a very good case that the reduction in crime was due to legalisation of abortion. People with stable relationships in middle class or wealthier classes usually have planned pregnancies and these children are likelier to be well taken care of than the welfare mum who already has 2 kids by the age of 20 with 2 different dads. I'm not advocating eugenics people, just legalizing abortion. You know it is legal in civilized countries.

    I know of the book. It does indeed persuasively describe abortion as the weapon of class warfare that it is.
    SLUSK wrote: »
    A child is a child. A fetus is a fetus. A woman owns her own body and should therefore be allowed to do what she wishes with the fetus in her body. Basic property rights. If you believe in the concept of self ownership that is.

    Legalise all drugs so?


  • #160
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    studiorat wrote: »
    I'm saying abortion happens in this country. Whether it is legal or illegal seems somewhat moot. Considering there would seem to be no criminal penalty for it... Maybe hell and damnation is enough punishment?

    Why would anyone ever go to "hell" for having an abortion?
    Fugly wrote: »
    I know I ramble but as someone who is directly affected by the legality of abortion I can't fathom why it isn't a choice.

    Personally affected? Simply because you are a woman?
    Fugly wrote: »
    But if informed people want to abstain, great for them. However I don't want to die without ever having sex again. Sex is a healthy part of being a person in a healthy relationship. It is something to be enjoyed and cherished.

    You may have guessed I don't plan on having children, ever.

    Life is what happens when you're plans don't work out. Pregnancy is a consequence of sex. That has been dictated not by pro-life campaigners but by biology. It is indeed part of being human to overcome our biological limits using tools, but we are not entitled to do so by any and every dodgy means.


  • #161
    Fugly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 250 ✭✭Fugly


    No, not simply because I'm a woman. But I've been in the position of requiring an abortion. I used precautions, however these things will happen. And for the record I've already stated that before becoming sexually involved with a man I make it clear to him what I would choose if I do become pregnant. It's clearly a deal breaker regarding relationships for me.

    "dodgy means" I'm sorry do you mean dodgy as I had to leave my country to have it preformed or because it was elective?

    And just to clarify my position, I would like to be sterilized to prevent myself from being in this situation again, however due to my age I am unable to do so. I think abortions should be used as the last option, clearly prevention is better than the cure.


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  • #162
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    i believe women should be able to choose

    they will always put thought into it

    it is their body

    A foetus is not the womans body at all. Clicky here for why that is in my opinion.
    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    the option of a choice is never bad

    If I was given the choice to let you live, or to kill you, would that choice never be bad?
    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    it is not as if abortion doesnt happen numerous times a year by irish women - by having it illegal in ireland you are solving nothing
    you are making it hard on these women and achieving nothing

    Just because something happens doesn't mean that it is wrong or that it is not killing. Whether or not it happens elsewhere is wholly irrelevant to me, the fact that it is a social injustice to the unborn is something that drives me to be opposed to abortion.
    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    you are achieving a blissful ignorance and holding your moral heads high while they hold their heads low in shame and danger in foreign or street abortions

    There is nothing ignorant about my position not to allow what is essentially infanticide in the womb to be legalised in Ireland. As for street abortions it is possible that these can be prevented by other means if we get adoptive programmes into full swing (government assistance for those who are going to keep their child) or a tighter police regime on the matter. Another potential solution is to increase sex ed classes and include all options as possible from contraception to abstinence.
    conchubhar1 wrote: »
    the choice effects the mother and the father and family alone
    it is not up to you or anyone else to dictate that chocie - it is their bodies and their choice

    The choice kills the unborn. There is the unborn to be considered. That's why I think pro-choicers are denying human rights because they ignore the unborn.

    For me there are two sets of rights, maybe even three.

    1. The rights of the mother.
    2. The rights of the unborn.
    3. The rights of the father.

    The last is debatable. However when the rights of the mother and the unborn conflict, a compromise has to be made. That compromise for me is adoption.


  • #163
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    ChocolateSauce wrote: »
    IMO, there's only one argument that needs saying, and that's, to paraphrase, get rosaries off ovaries.

    How about "get human rights off ovaries"?


  • #164
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    Fugly wrote: »
    "dodgy means" I'm sorry do you mean dodgy as I had to leave my country to have it preformed or because it was elective?

    I consider abortion to be a dodgy means of overcoming biology.


  • #165
    Fugly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 250 ✭✭Fugly


    So by that do I understand that you regard all medicine dodgy.? It "interferes with biology" or is it simply procedures that you deem elective.


  • #166
    ChocolateSauce
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭ChocolateSauce


    Fugly wrote: »
    So by that do I understand that you regard all medicine dodgy.? It "interferes with biology" or is it simply procedures that you deem elective.

    I imagine Hurin meant this particular example was dodgy (and indeed said only as much), not every method of interference.


  • #167
    turgon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Would it not be fair to say that both abortion and contraception have the same end, and thus promoting one and not the other may be slightly contradictory?


  • #168
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    turgon wrote: »
    Would it not be fair to say that both abortion and contraception have the same end, and thus promoting one and not the other may be slightly contradictory?

    I don't see how this could be the case:

    Contraception prevents a life from forming.
    Abortion destroys an already existent life.


  • #169
    freedom of info
    Closed Accounts Posts: 143 ✭✭freedom of info


    Andy-Pandy wrote: »
    I dont agree with your reasoning, but i do think women should have the option. If you want it you should be able to have it, if you dont, then dont.

    abortion topics are a no win situation, some people are blinkered to the effects on a mother after the procedure, most go batty and live regretting their decision, however abortion should be legalised in cases such as rape, incest or where the life of the mother or child would be detrimental, i refer to medical problems such as cancer or where the child would have no quality of life, some would argue the churches teaching on the situation, a bunch of celibate fools dictating on something that they know nothing about.

    i am probably the only bloke on this forum that has been inside an abortion clinic, twice, i have no problem with it, my ex went off her head, also i have 2 kids under 17, i hate to think what it would have been like if i had four of them


  • #170
    freedom of info
    Closed Accounts Posts: 143 ✭✭freedom of info


    Jakkass wrote: »
    You consider me reasonable? That's news to me :)

    I'm personally pro-life, and by pro-life I mean everyones life. If my (hypothetical) partner (I'm single currently) life was endangered by a pregnancy. I would consider it far far more important to save one life than lose two. It is basically the only situation I can think that abortion would ever be justified. I believe it is our responsibility to protect human life. This applies in all cases. The case of the mother right down to the case of those who are on death row. As such I agree with Ireland's current stance but I do not agree that abortion is a choice rather it is only something that should be considered by medical staff in emergencies.

    your comment is fair and reasonable and i respect your opinion, but it really should not be anyones decision other than the mother of a potential abortion


  • #171
    Húrin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,045 ✭✭✭Húrin


    freedom of info wrote: »
    your comment is fair and reasonable and i respect your opinion, but it really should not be anyones decision other than the mother of a potential abortion

    So you're wheeling this out as an unquestionable dogma with nothing to back it up?


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  • #172
    allabouteve
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭allabouteve


    freedom of info wrote: »
    abortion topics are a no win situation, some people are blinkered to the effects on a mother after the procedure, most go batty and live regretting their decision,
    Source? Link?
    however abortion should be legalised in cases such as rape, incest or where the life of the mother or child would be detrimental, i refer to medical problems such as cancer or where the child would have no quality of life,
    Who gets to decide that? And how do you legislate for it?
    some would argue the churches teaching on the situation, a bunch of celibate fools dictating on something that they know nothing about.
    I'm an atheist, but everyone is entitled to have and express an opinion.
    i am probably the only bloke on this forum that has been inside an abortion clinic, twice, i have no problem with it, my ex went off her head, also i have 2 kids under 17, i hate to think what it would have been like if i had four of them
    So should abortion be legalised for economic reasons as well as for ''being detrimental''?


  • #173
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    freedom of info wrote: »
    abortion topics are a no win situation, some people are blinkered to the effects on a mother after the procedure, most go batty and live regretting their decision

    Agreed. Post Abortion Syndrome is terrible, and all the help that is needed should be given. In addition full education on what happens during an abortion should be given to all those doing sex education, with full explanation of how the procedure is carried out so that they can make an educated decision.
    freedom of info wrote: »
    , however abortion should be legalised in cases such as rape, incest

    Why?
    freedom of info wrote: »
    , some would argue the churches teaching on the situation, a bunch of celibate fools dictating on something that they know nothing about.

    As allabouteve rightly put it, there is a right to freedom of speech in this country and whether or not you like it people have a right to express their opinion surely?

    As for "celibate fools", I'm sure that Catholics have about as much to bring to the table on abortion as any other group in society. However, you fail to realise that other Christian churches whose leaders are not celibate have held largely the same view on abortion in Ireland.

    Many atheists and agnostics also oppose abortion.
    freedom of info wrote: »
    i am probably the only bloke on this forum that has been inside an abortion clinic, twice, i have no problem with it, my ex went off her head, also i have 2 kids under 17, i hate to think what it would have been like if i had four of them

    So? Just because you have no problem with it it must be okay for everyone else not to have a problem with it?
    freedom of info wrote: »
    your comment is fair and reasonable and i respect your opinion, but it really should not be anyones decision other than the mother of a potential abortion

    Why should it be anyones decision whether or not to kill another human being? I don't understand the reasoning behind this at all.


  • #174
    freedom of info
    Closed Accounts Posts: 143 ✭✭freedom of info


    allabouteve wrote: »
    Source? Link?

    Who gets to decide that? And how do you legislate for it?

    I'm an atheist, but everyone is entitled to have and express an opinion.
    So should abortion be legalised for economic reasons as well as for ''being detrimental''?


    what im saying is everyone should be entitled to make their own mind up, nobody should pass judgment on anyone else, after all we all have a brain, i am also an atheist, i rejected religion in my early 20's after having religion rammed down my throat from early childhood, up until recent times i was condemmed for expressing my opinions.

    at what point does the line have to be drawn? remember the early 80's, you couldnt buy a rubber in this country.


  • #175
    allabouteve
    Closed Accounts Posts: 844 ✭✭✭allabouteve


    freedom of info wrote: »
    what im saying is everyone should be entitled to make their own mind up, nobody should pass judgment on anyone else,

    And that is not acceptable for those who feel that abortion is equal to killing a human person.

    To people of that opinion, its legalised murder, something which no reasonable person would consider a matter for the individual conscience.

    For those who believe abortion is the taking of a human life, its the equivalent of saying you can murder who you like, if you've a bloody good reason for it.

    Not something a civilized society would condone.

    That is why the abortion debate is so huge and important, there are no half-measures in it.

    Its killing, or it isn't.


  • #176
    RABTMOUSE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 55 ✭✭RABTMOUSE


    Abortions should be legalised in Ireland!!!!
    Come on people- how dare anyone tell anyone else what they can and cannot do with their bodies/their lives.
    It is a FACT that thousands of Irish women travel abroad every year to have a termination. Not all of these women were irresponsible with contraception, statistics show that alot of these women used contraception and it failed. But to be honest- that's neither here nor there- it is each individuals choice if they want to become a parent or not. There are alot of factors to this, circumstance; relationship/financial/ or the age of a person or simply not wanting to become a parent.

    Abortion should be legalised in Ireland and if you don't agree with it- then don't have an abortion: simple.


  • #177
    Samson Hissing Specs
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Samson Hissing Specs


    freedom of info wrote: »
    however abortion should be legalised in cases such as rape

    why? is the fetus any different?


  • #178
    drkpower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    allabouteve wrote: »
    Its killing, or it isn't.

    Do you really believe it is that simple?

    So presumably you do not believe that abortion is permisssable where a woman's health is at risk on foot of the pregnancy? Or where she has a very low risk of death if she carries the foetus to term? Because killing a foetus would be a worse outcome than preserving the woman's health or in providing her with the best chance of survival?


  • #179
    drkpower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,475 ✭✭✭drkpower


    RABTMOUSE wrote: »
    Abortion should be legalised in Ireland and if you don't agree with it- then don't have an abortion: simple.

    Is it really that simple?

    Do you believe that the State has absolutely no interest in protecting the foetus in any way whatsoever, at any stage of development?


  • #180
    monellia
    Closed Accounts Posts: 284 ✭✭monellia


    We can assume that pro-lifers value the preservation of the foetus’ life more than the damage that childbirth does to the mother’s body, as well as the effect this has on her life.

    Pro-lifers need to ask themselves:

    - Should people have a lawful obligation to donate their organs to people who need them in order to preserve life?

    - Should the state have the right to take a kidney from me so that the life of another can be preserved?

    If you are consistent in your beliefs as a pro-lifer (i.e. if you value the life of another over the damage this does to my body), it should follow that you believe the state should have the right to take a kidney from me so that the life of another can be preserved.

    No one has the right to life at the expense of another person’s body, soz.


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  • #181
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    monellia wrote: »
    If you are consistent in your beliefs as a pro-lifer (i.e. if you value the life of another over the damage this does to my body), it should follow that you believe the state should have the right to take a kidney from me so that the life of another can be preserved.

    Erm, not really. The issue all hinges on liberty. The pro-choicers say the foetus has no personal liberty, the pro-lifers say it does. It all really comes down to those two irreconcilable viewpoints. It has to do with the right to life, and to whom it is applied, not the health preference given to the welfare of the mother and the child.

    In Mathematics one has situations where something cant be proved, and sometimes it has been proven that this something cant be proved. The abortion topic is as close an example of this in the real world as far as I can gauge. Although I used to take a side on this issue I don't really anymore. I think there is no answer.

    The solution then is whether to err on the side of safety (be pro-life) or allow people to decide the issue themselves (pro-choice). Once again I just fundamentally believe there is no "right" answer here.


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