Inheritance

LegacyUser · 07-07-2009 10:36PM #1

Im not looking for legal advice just opinions. I am a mother of 2 sons and 2 daughters. We have a house and 170 acres of land. The issue is the best way to divide up what we have when I or my husband dies. My husband doenst want the land split and he would be intent on leaving it between the two boys. As you can imagine this does not go down well with the 2 girls. All of the children are educated and in jobs. Noone is working the farm except my husband and that is the way it will remain. Any advice appreciated.

Queen-Mise · 07-07-2009 11:01PM

A very old fashioned view to be honest, leaving it to the boys.

I presume it is a working farm you have. The question is would any of the kids come back and work the farm at some point in the future.

Would you run the farm if anything happened your husband?

The situation obviously changes if the land is being rented/leased out to other people.

Unless the boys are going to come back and run the land, there is no reason why they should be given preferential treatment over the girls.

LegacyUser · 07-07-2009 11:06PM

It's a bit old fashioned, isn't it? The sons get the land!!! It's the same in our house, my brothers are getting the land.
Does he intent the house to be included with the land? If so, then I'd suggest picking the most 3 most suitable sites for the three who don't get the house and dividing the rest of the land between the two lucky boys.

LegacyUser · 07-07-2009 11:27PM

Queen-Mise wrote: »

A very old fashioned view to be honest, leaving it to the boys.

I presume it is a working farm you have. The question is would any of the kids come back and work the farm at some point in the future.

Would you run the farm if anything happened your husband?

The situation obviously changes if the land is being rented/leased out to other people.

Unless the boys are going to come back and run the land, there is no reason why they should be given preferential treatment over the girls.

Op here. Thats the problem. The 2 boys and 1 of the girls would come back to run it. My husband would just like to leave oit to the boys. My 2 daughters know this and are not happy. I know this issue will cause problems in the future if my husband leaves it to the boys. I dont want that to happen. Its not being leased out. My husband runs it. As for what would happen to it should anything happen my husband I would take care of it someway.

Adamisconfused · 07-07-2009 11:45PM

My mother was given the family home and land because she was very close to her parents and cared for them in the latter years while her other siblings were either living away or didn’t do as much. She didn’t care about the land. She just cared for her family. The will also ensured that her sisters and brothers received settlements as well.
I think you already know the answer. The property divided up equally is the only fair thing to do at the moment. If any of your children take care of you in years to come then you can always change the will and leave the majority of your property to one child while instructing that he/she make a monetary settlement with the other siblings.

LegacyUser · 07-07-2009 11:49PM

Unregistered wrote: »

It's a bit old fashioned, isn't it? The sons get the land!!! It's the same in our house, my brothers are getting the land.
Does he intent the house to be included with the land? If so, then I'd suggest picking the most 3 most suitable sites for the three who don't get the house and dividing the rest of the land between the two lucky boys.

Op here. One of my daughters would not talk to us again if that were to happen though and there is no moving her on this issue. She just sees it as blatant sexism and she loves the farm too. She doesnt consider a site good enough.

To the other poster the house is so connected to the farm it has to be left with it.

Adamisconfused · 07-07-2009 11:51PM

Unregistered wrote: »

Op here. Thats the problem. The 2 boys and 1 of the girls would come back to run it. My husband would just like to leave oit to the boys. My 2 daughters know this and are not happy. I know this issue will cause problems in the future if my husband leaves it to the boys. I dont want that to happen. Its not being leased out. My husband runs it. As for what would happen to it should anything happen my husband I would take care of it someway.

As bad as it may seem to say, the chances are that you will probably outlive your husband. The property should be yours after he passes on. After that, the decision is yours to make.
If your husband wants to leave it between the two boys then what’s the harm in including the daughter who wants to return? I’m sure that you know that would be the fair thing to do. There is no harm in leaving out the child who doesn’t have any interest in returning.

If your children want to run it then they should make an effort now and show that they’re worthy and willing to help out.

Adamisconfused · 08-07-2009 12:02AM

Unregistered wrote: »

To the other poster the house is so connected to the farm it has to be left with it.

My mother got everything and still has it. She doesn’t even live there. She cared for her mother in our family home. I was just saying that giving the property to the most worthy is the best idea. I wasn’t suggesting splitting the land from the house. The will required her to pay off her brothers and sisters so they didn’t feel hard done by.

If a son or daughter returned to run the farm now, then that person deserves it. That child should then be required to make a small settlement with his/her siblings.
If more than one want to return and the farm won’t support them then give it to the eldest child who wants to be involved in running the place. There are no easy answers. Someone will always feel robbed.

TheBlock · 08-07-2009 12:11AM

If it was me...four children split four ways. If one wants to run/work the farm they can buy the others out. I'm assuming they get on and wouldn't take advantage of each other. Why would you favour one/two of your children over the others?

LegacyUser · 08-07-2009 12:18AM

TheBlock wrote: »

If it was me...four children split four ways. If one wants to run/work the farm they can buy the others out. I'm assuming they get on and wouldn't take advantage of each other. Why would you favour one/two of your children over the others?

Op here. They wouldnt get on running the farm. The eldest lad thinks he should get it and would be disgusted if he didnt. I dont know why my husband would favour one over another. He doesnt see it like that, he just sees it as the done thing. Thats what my daughter says why would you favour one.

Adamisconfused: My husband would leave it to the eldest son but not the actual eldest who is a daughter.

Queen-Mise · 08-07-2009 12:39AM

Unregistered wrote: »

Op here. Thats the problem. The 2 boys and 1 of the girls would come back to run it. My husband would just like to leave oit to the boys. My 2 daughters know this and are not happy. I know this issue will cause problems in the future if my husband leaves it to the boys. I dont want that to happen. Its not being leased out. My husband runs it. As for what would happen to it should anything happen my husband I would take care of it someway.

Put your foot down with this. The girls are not happy for very obvious reasons. I presume your husband views are coming from a time, where the girls are being looked after now by their husbands, and the girls are their responsibilities now, not your husband.

If your husband persists with the idea of leaving the farm to the boys, absolutely insist that the girls get financial recompense i.e. the farm left to the all 4, but 1 or 2 of the boys have to buy the girls out, or pay them rent for their share of the land.

Get round your husband in some way. I can truly understand the predicament of men being very set in their ways. The key I find is coming at it, from an angle they can understand.

The girls have to be protected also, they isn't so much about the money, as about equality between the kids.

The last thing I will say, I am sure you have heard of these stories also of families that have been ripped apart by wills and the fighting about them.

Unless the middle ground is found here, this has the hallmarks of ripping your family apart. Apologies if that sounds very harsh.

mikemac · 08-07-2009 12:39AM

It's not the "done thing" to leave the farm to the eldest son. If anything, it's usually the youngest son who gets the farm.

In a similar situation to you OP.
A working farm and six siblings.
But only one has any interest in it.

It's not as big as 170 acres and if it was split you could never make an income from it.
Even with all the acres, it's pretty much a part time job so it's pointless splitting it.

So one person gets the farm and the other five get sites.
A great area, I'm more then happy with a site, not much interest in running a farm. Though give me a few acres and I'd do something with livestock as a hobby.

OP, would you family settle for sites and one person gets the land?

Edit: I see now that your sister won't settle for that

cafecolour · 08-07-2009 01:43AM

Saying they'll work the farm versus actually coming back and running it for the rest of their lives are two completely different things. Have any of them actually spent an extended time working on it as adults? Are any of them living there now, or are they living an urban life in Dublin and it would be adjustment to come back. Are any of them married/with children and the partner would be okay with working it?

You can likely see where I'm going this - who is actually capable of working it after your husband is gone. I'd almost have each of them come back and try running the farm for a year and see if they can handle it. And I'd def put in the will that the farm can not be sold/redeveloped - ie maybe put something that the designated recipient has to keep it as a working farm or it passes to the next in line (and if no one wants to work it, it gets sold and the money divided among all of them).

oil painting · 08-07-2009 01:47AM

Hi OP,

What do you think is right/fair?

Would there be a need to provide for nursing care in the future?

Can the land be built on? Maybe if it can- it could be divided out fairly so they could all build their own homes, do you think the farm would carry on after you both pass or would it all change? If so you may want to divide everything out, Maybe someone could get the main house and the farm but if it was to be sold it would be divided equally.

barbiegirl · 08-07-2009 10:55AM

If sites for each won't work, then allocate and sell a few sites, put the cash aside, leave the farm to one and the cash to the others. As to who gets the farm, it 3 want an equal claim, call them together, put the names in a hat and pull one. 170 acres isn't huge and should be left to one person. The others as I said get cash.
I for one have no issue with where or what my mum leaves me. My dad died very recently and everything went to ma. She was left very comfortable if heartbroken. When she goes I've told her to make sure to have spent it all :-) It's hers they worked hard for everything and we're all grown and provision has been made for the two youngest 24 and 19 for when they want to settle. I understand, being from the country, that land is different. But your kids need to accept that you and your husband decide and that you want no fighting afterwards and your will accepted.
best of luck.

iguana · 08-07-2009 11:15AM

I think you need to be very, very careful here. A lot of families are torn apart due to disputes over wills. A lot of my grandmother's siblings never spoke to each other again after the will reading. It made things extremely difficult and sad for the rest of their lives. When my grandmother, who was one of those who inherited nothing, tried to stay in contact with the sisters who had inherited, the others fought with her. It was a horrible, horrible situation. It destroyed a family and left nearly everyone hating my great-grandmother as they believed there was malicious intent behind her choices.

Your husband says he doesn't want to split the farm, but his choices here could end up splitting his family. Which is more important to him? The land staying together or his children.

LegacyUser · 08-07-2009 12:41PM

Op here. thanks for all the replies. Yes I know that this is an issue that will tear the family apart if it is left just to the boys. I know if Im gone before my husband that is what he will probably do and the thoughts of that worry me.

Zzippy · 08-07-2009 12:48PM

None of them have any right to expect to be left anything. Its totally up to the parents to do what they want with their property. The kids have been raised well and are doing well. If one of them was actually working the farm and that was his source of income then I would expect it to be left to him. However thats not the case, so splitting the property seems fair to me.
This kind of thing can cause huge problems, even where the children don't expect to be left property. My grandmother left the family farm to the youngest son, who was the only one working the farm and living with his own family on the property. The other siblings didn't look for anything, and were happy that he got the farm. However, he was so paranoid that they would try to get a share that he barred the sisters from the family house for the wake - caused a huge rift for nothing.

0utshined · 08-07-2009 12:53PM

Unregistered wrote: »

One of my daughters would not talk to us again if that were to happen though and there is no moving her on this issue.

OP, you've raised your children, helped in educating them and they're adults now with jobs, earning their own keep. And that's it. You don't have to do anything else for them or give them anything.

You've mentioned a couple of times how the children feel and to be honest I found the above comment disgraceful. Your children don't get to decide what you and your husband decide to put in your wills. They don't even get to know what's there unless you tell them, and even then you can tell them what you want - they'll find out for sure once your will is read.

Disregard what they feel is right or what they want. Discuss it with your husband and when ye know what you want go to a solicitor and make your will. Let the kids know who holds it but that's all you need to tell them.

Best of luck with your decision.

LegacyUser · 08-07-2009 12:57PM

We had this in our house.
My parents however stated all long that they were rearing us with everything - education to the hilt if we wanted it and then it was up to us to make our way in life - if anything was left then it was to be left in the will when both were 6ft under and to have no hard feelings. We don't. Brothers wife is very bitter over it - oldest son as it happened - but he works as an accountant in Dublin so is not interested in it as much as she is, another brother chose to live close as well as my sister who both will care for the old pair in their old age. The rest of us now assume that they will be left the bulk of the farm in return for caring for them in their own setting. its fair enough really. I don't believe children should be looking at what they should "get" but home farms are things to get emotional about.
I think you should stop talking to them about it to be honest. Tell them until you die you own it so make their own lives and living - they won't make a living from a farm in Ireland now anyway unless its fairly big. And if they get bitter well its their own look out - you and your hubbie will be pushing up the daisy's and won't care.

iguana · 08-07-2009 01:16PM

0utshined wrote: »

OP, you've raised your children, helped in educating them and they're adults now with jobs, earning their own keep. And that's it. You don't have to do anything else for them or give them anything.

You've mentioned a couple of times how the children feel and to be honest I found the above comment disgraceful. Your children don't get to decide what you and your husband decide to put in your wills. They don't even get to know what's there unless you tell them, and even then you can tell them what you want - they'll find out for sure once your will is read.

It's not that simple. I couldn't care less if my parents ever leave me anything when they die, which I hope isn't for a very, very long time. If they want to spend all their savings on themselves or sell their house and spend all their money taking cruises til the end of their days, that is their business and good for them. If they leave everything to charity that's their prerogative. My parents are quite young anyway and I wouldn't be surprised if they are around for my 70th birthday, so I'm sure not waiting on a windfall.

However if they randomly left everything to one or both of my brothers I'd be really hurt. It would make me feel as if I had been less loved and less important to them throughout their lives. It's not as if I want their money, but I want to feel equally loved. I also know that if for some reason I inherited everything I'd share it equally with my brothers as that's what would be fair. My other grandmother's family decided to share their inheritance equally with the widow of their brother, even though she wasn't actually entitled to anything.

My mum has always taught me that when it comes to what happens after your death your wishes don't matter. You're gone, the important people are those left behind. You should have the type of funeral which would give the most comfort to those who mourn you regardless of your beliefs. As long as it isn't massively upsetting to your loved ones you should donate any part of your body which will help the living. And you should make sure that your will doesn't tear your family apart. Anything else is completely and utterly selfish.

LegacyUser · 08-07-2009 01:22PM

OP - do you and your husband jointly own the farm? In this case the will, should you die together, needs to be agreed so he cannot just do his own thing without your permission.

If you die first unfortunatley there is not much you can do about his decisions and he will have inherited your share.

The other option is to sign over the farm to your children prior to either death with the prevision that your children cannot take possession of the farm until both parents are dead

LegacyUser · 08-07-2009 01:52PM

Unregistered wrote: »

OP - do you and your husband jointly own the farm? In this case the will, should you die together, needs to be agreed so he cannot just do his own thing without your permission.

If you die first unfortunatley there is not much you can do about his decisions and he will have inherited your share.

The other option is to sign over the farm to your children prior to either death with the prevision that your children cannot take possession of the farm until both parents are dead

+1

Hi I understand your worries here, because yourself and your husband should be making this decision together and it seems you both have conflicting views on how it should be shared out and your opinion does not seem to be be valued here also,

I dont think it is about the inheritance but the fact that 2 children may be treated differently by their father because of their gender and also you his wife are not being treated as if it is yours to leave also.

People who are left out may feel that their father did not love them as much, i know it might sound childish but deep down these are things that can cause deep hurt, it is then a legacy left behind. It is always best to divide something fairly and then there would be nobody hurt, it could split up the siblings relationships.

tbh · 08-07-2009 01:59PM

OP - did you husband inherit the farm himself?

Handsome Bob · 08-07-2009 02:22PM

OP have a chat with your husband and ask him would he be happy if his lasting legacy was that his actions led to a permanent split in the family.

It doesn't sound like any of your children have done anything special to warrant a bigger split of the inheritance so splitting it equally is the only way to go.

LegacyUser · 08-07-2009 02:22PM

OP her:
TBH: yes he did and he had a sister who got money but not land.

Iguana: You hit the nail on the head. Its not like my children expect to be left property its just the feeling of hurt that will come if some are left out and others arent. If there was no land they wouldnt care. Its just the double standards that exist.

My daughter just said to my husband could she have a field at least to build her house on. Its about 5 acres and he said no that she would get a site. He also said how can he split the farm. my daughter was not pleased that he wont even give her 5 acres out of 170.

LegacyUser · 08-07-2009 02:35PM

tbh wrote: »

OP - did you husband inherit the farm himself?

I was wondering this myself because he may have inherited the farm this way himself.

But I dont think it makes a difference, they are married and she should be treated like their home is her's as much as the husbands.

tbh · 08-07-2009 02:37PM

Unregistered wrote: »

OP her:
TBH: yes he did and he had a sister who got money but not land.
.

hmmm...I think it's going to be a hard one to solve with logical arguments so. I'll have a think

The_Conductor · 08-07-2009 03:37PM

It really sounds like your husband is trying to apply standards from a bygone era to a modern situation.

Irish people have totally unreal fixations with land- in a global context- I cannot think of any other country where there is a similar fixation.

The usual situation these days is all property is equally vested in both husband and wife. When either dies they bequeath their possessions to their partner who in turn makes a new will deciding the manner in which they wish their possessions to be distributed.

Its a reasonable assumption that 170 acres has an open market value of between EUR1.5 and EUR2m in the current climate (depending on quality and location). Assuming no other liabilities associated with the farm- are any of the children in a position to leverage 1.5m to distribute to their siblings (which would have to be done as a parent to child disbursement for tax reasons)?

It is archaic to expect to hand the family farm to the youngest son, the eldest son to join the priesthood, and the daughters to be married off. Its a mindset from a different era. Giving the eldest son the farm 100 years ago in rural Ireland- rather than the younger son- would also have resulted in a family feud......

The optimal time for selling the farm is long gone- but you seriously have to tackle this now, rather than waiting until the worse happens.

Also- what happens to the remaining parent- when one dies- its also not normal these days for a child to stay at home and care for their parents in their old age- as the youngest daughter was expected to do in the past. How would nursing home costs etc be met?

From a legal perspective- I believe a will would be legally open to challenge- were a husband or wife to exclude their partner from their will (I don't know the details of this). In the modern world- this would potentially leave the remaining parent destitute in their old age.......

The fairest thing is reciprochal wills bequeathing everything to either partner on their death- and equally distributing the estate amongst all children in the event of both parents dying, or one parent dying and the other being ill or not in fit state of mind (in which case there would be an equal obligation placed on the 4 children to provide for the remaining parent in perpetuity).

This seriously needs to be addressed- now, while there is still time to do so- and before it causes even more serious familial rifts......

skooterblue · 08-07-2009 04:18PM

TheBlock wrote: »

If it was me...four children split four ways. If one wants to run/work the farm they can buy the others out. I'm assuming they get on and wouldn't take advantage of each other. Why would you favour one/two of your children over the others?

With all due respect to you block you know absolutely NOTHING about farming, farms, or the business of a farm.

Farming is not a job like general op in a factory or working in the civil service. I am not looking down on these jobs either because I work at a similar job myself. you cannot decide after the Leaving Cert "hmmm, I think I'll go farming". Its a job that is bred into children at an early age to love the farm. No one who understands farming would take a small holding and divide it into four unworkable parts.

As for the two cents one buy the other three out.... And where would the money for this come from with Milk being made at a loss, high regulations being put on food production and small quotas being enforced through world trade talks. how also do you divide up the plant of the farm? the €60k tractor, the milking parlour, the hay barn, slatted units, cubicles, silage pits and the various machinery. then come the legal difficulties access to the land, access to water, energy, dont go there bambi on the quota's.

Imagine if you split up a factory, the boiler, air compression, goods in and out, office space, factory floor. These are all facilites that are needed. Of course the urban attitute is to throw money at the problem. Buy another air compressor, build a wall down the floor. It doesnt work that way either. splitting the farm would weaken it and every one would end up with nothing. 40 acres a piece.

The two boys might be able to work out a partnership but I have never seen a girl in 25 years do a bit of work on a farm to deserve it. I am sorry but the best way is to leave the bulk of it to the one person or sell the whole thing. Do make a proper informed will or decision or the solicitor will have the fat of the farm.

Ask any of the people who have contributed and said be fair and split it even or think of the girls. Ask them what they would do with it in the morning if they inherited? They would sell it, without even thinking. Very few Irish people inhertit a farm they usuallly get it because they have been working on it since they were knee high.

biko · 08-07-2009 04:23PM

Get a solicitors advice on the will. Giving it to the boys and cutting the daughters out is just not good, your husband is aggravating his own children (well, the daughters) this way, while he is still alive.
Does he think the daughters will care for him in his old age when it's clear he prefers the boys this way?

smccarrick wrote: »

Irish people have totally unreal fixations with land

Very true

Inheritance

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