Inheritance

LegacyUser

Op here. Just to make it clear -the three of them live at home and help out. They all do other things aswell- work/college. The situation wouldnt have arose if one of them just worked it and didnt have another job. Then they would obviously get it and that would be expected.

prinz

prinz wrote: »

Yep, hadn't read the whole thread through, and didn't pick that up. Nuff said, she should get it.

Even if the part of her life that she has lived and worked on the farm is less than the part of the others who worked on it before they moved off it?

Frankly 1 line statements like that are meaningless without all of the facts

Unregistered

Unregistered wrote: »

Op here. Just to make it clear -the three of them live at home and help out. They all do other things aswell- work/college. The situation wouldnt have arose if one of them just worked it and didnt have another job. Then they would obviously get it and that would be expected.

To be honest OP,they themselves really have to make a decision then.
It's not unusual if they are in college to be still working on the farm...after all you are still supporting them which is their pay as such for that.
It's also not unusual for them to be working some on it if they are living at home for free otherwise.
They'd have to work outside to support their college education etc or to live somewhere else anyway.

If they were in their 30's or 40's and still at home,then this would be a whole different ball game.

prinz

Unregistered wrote: »

Op here. Just to make it clear -the three of them live at home and help out. They all do other things aswell- work/college. The situation wouldnt have arose if one of them just worked it and didnt have another job. Then they would obviously get it and that would be expected.

The plot thickens. Sell the farm and divvy up the cash. Unless you want civil strife on your hands.

Deleted User wrote: »

Even if the part of her life that she has lived and worked on the farm is less than the part of the others who worked on it before they moved off it?

Yes, more or less. If she has no plans on following a different career or moving away, and wants to stay on the farm then of course she should get it.

iguana

Deleted User wrote: »

How very condescending.
Whats right for you and whats right for someone else are two different things.
You can jump up and down about it all you like,it doesnt change the persons whose views you disagree with,right to hold those views.

I'm not being condescending, it was sarcasm used to illustrate your condescension, constantly referring to both farmers and the elderly as being incapable of rational thought. The man is tearing his family apart, he is upsetting his wife and daughters and there is no way that that is right.

It doesn't upset me, my parents value me as equally as they do my brothers, and they value the 3 of us above everything else in existence. They would give up everything they have for us if they had to. I can't imagine how utterly devastating it is for the OP's daughter not to feel that her parents love her like that. Or how devastating it is for the OP to have this wedge driven between her and her children.

If farmers don't want their land to be split after their deaths they should consider that before they attempt to conceive babies 2, 3 and 4. And work out a suitable plan from the beginning.

Unregistered

Unregistered wrote: »

Op here. Shes not like that but I suppose its not coming across too well in my posts. The eldest son also inquires about what will happen and would know that she thinks like this and would also be trying to persaude my husband to leave it to him. Its certainly not just her that has it in her mind. he does too . So there as bad as each other. She sees it as like her father would let her look after him into old age, help out on the farm but still the son would get it no matter what he done or what she done. Its a very complicated situatuion- one that is not going to be solved I think.

Sorry OP...In the maze of replies I hadn't seen this.

I don't envy your position.The best advice I can give you really is to talk with people in the same position and see how they got on.There aren't too many farmers on PI

prinz wrote:

Yes, more or less. If she has no plans on following a different career or moving away, and wants to stay on the farm then of course she should get it.

For the record,I'd have no problem with any sibling taking over a farm as long as it was viable regardless of sex,I'm young and have evolved.
But I have a huge respect for the rights of the owners to do as they see fit regardless as to whether it would be what I'd do or not.

<farming joke meant in a helpfull way mods>Perhaps the OP should send such an enthusiastic daughter my way [I'm single so is my brother both with big farms ]<farming joke>

iguana

iguana wrote: »

I'm not being condescending, it was sarcasm used to illustrate your condescension, constantly referring to both farmers and the elderly as being incapable of rational thought. The man is tearing his family apart, he is upsetting his wife and daughters and there is no way that that is right.

You see the problem is,he doesn't see it that way.
I know a lot of people still like that and tbh I respect their right to own their own decision.
It's very rational to him.
The use of the word old timer is the same as the use of the word old fashioned,it's far from an insult.I didn't mean everybody.I've said a lot of it exists.

If farmers don't want their land to be split after their deaths they should consider that before they attempt to conceive babies 2, 3 and 4. And work out a suitable plan from the beginning.

That is advocating something thats probably as alien to the op's husband as a girl inheriting a farm when theres sons available and willing.

Incidently and as an aside,it has always been a farmers nightmare in my experience as to what to do with say 3 or 4 siblings or even 2 when they all have an interest in farming.
They are usually delighted that their kids have the grá but sadly only one can get the long straw if the farm is to continue.

iguana

Deleted User wrote: »

You see the problem is,he doesn't see it that way.
I know a lot of people still like that and tbh I respect their right to own their own decision.
It's very rational to him.

The thing is he mightn't see it that way, but that is still what he is doing. As I said up thread one of my grandmothers' family was torn apart due to her mother's will. Many of the siblings never spoke again, and some of those still living don't speak now. Even at my grandmother's funeral last year it was still a concern. It's a dreadful thing to happen to a family, it completely spoils a huge part of their lives.

Maybe if you haven't had a first hand view of just how utterly this kind of thing can destroy people you can't understand. Whereas I've lived with it for most of my life, I've seen the hurt it caused someone I loved. Nothing, nothing at all, is worth that kind of damage. And on the otherhand I've seen my other grandmother's family cast aside legal rights and share their inheritance equally with their brother's widow, even though the will was never amended to include her. So it's pretty black and white to me. Unfairness can destroy a family, whereas fairness makes the family stronger.

iguana

iguana wrote: »

The thing is he mightn't see it that way, but that is still what he is doing. As I said up thread one of my grandmothers' family was torn apart due to her mother's will. Many of the siblings never spoke again, and some of those still living don't speak now. Even at my grandmother's funeral last year it was still a concern. It's a dreadful thing to happen to a family, it completely spoils a huge part of their lives.

Common in farming,very common sadly.
You can't legislate for people disagree'ing and the lengths they go in their disagreements.

Maybe if you haven't had a first hand view of just how utterly this kind of thing can destroy people you can't understand. Whereas I've lived with it for most of my life, I've seen the hurt it caused someone I loved. Nothing, nothing at all, is worth that kind of damage. And on the otherhand I've seen my other grandmother's family cast aside legal rights and share their inheritance equally with their brother's widow, even though the will was never amended to include her. So it's pretty black and white to me. Unfairness can destroy a family, whereas fairness makes the family stronger.

It's not black and white though all the time and because we are dealing with the most complicated potentially contrary machines of the whole lot [the diversity of the human mind].

On a lighter note,I know in my own family,there have been a few instances of years of not speaking types of arguments over land.
Two of the most recent ones were resolved simply by some siblings having the time and patience to intervene and talk them out of it.
There are bastions of society that harp back to what are otherwise bygone ages but unfortunately for the rest of us,the feelings involved run very very deep.
Unlike a leaky roof,not so easily fixed though they will go with time and evolution.

My last thought of the day I'm afraid.Theres only so much paperwork here that can keep me at the pc...unfortunately it's now raining outside..I should have left the reams of paperwork untill now-grabs coat and leaves ye :pac:

kiwikid

Unregistered wrote: »

Op here. The farm will be farmed. I cant get that across in my posts but I know for certain it will.

with respect you don't know that for certain. If you hand over your farm lock stock / fair and square it can be sold or leased and there is nothing you can do about it.

Remember "a son is a son 'til he takes a wife" perhaps your golden boy will tell you what you want to hear and then finds a girl who will not tolerate the smell of slurry / silage in her house. It happens.

As for the question that remains unanswered - will your husband be willing to take a hands off approach when he hands over the farm? will the daughter be expected to mind the parents in their old age when independent living gets too much?

LegacyUser

kiwikid wrote: »

with respect you don't know that for certain. If you hand over your farm lock stock / fair and square it can be sold or leased and there is nothing you can do about it.

Remember "a son is a son 'til he takes a wife" perhaps your golden boy will tell you what you want to hear and then finds a girl who will not tolerate the smell of slurry / silage in her house. It happens.

As for the question that remains unanswered - will your husband be willing to take a hands off approach when he hands over the farm? will the daughter be expected to mind the parents in their old age when independent living gets too much?

Op here. I dont know if he will be able to take a hands off approach. The place wont be signed over to anyone while Im still alive anyway. Thats certain. I doubt she would mind us in our old age knowing that they were going to be left everything. I wouldnt expect her too as I think who gets most should have to do the minding. Thats only fair.

The_Conductor

Unregistered wrote: »

Op here. I dont know if he will be able to take a hands off approach. The place wont be signed over to anyone while Im still alive anyway. Thats certain. I doubt she would mind us in our old age knowing that they were going to be left everything. I wouldnt expect her too as I think who gets most should have to do the minding. Thats only fair.

The point I and others have made on this thread- is that it was a legitimate expectation in bygone days that the person taking over the farm would look after their parents in their old age- but that this simply doesn't happen anymore.

As pointed out above- what happens when your elder son gets married and his wife decides she is or is not willing to do many of the things you are expecting of your son.

There are far too many assumptions being made by almost everyone in this situation.......

iguana

smccarrick wrote: »

As pointed out above- what happens when your elder son gets married and his wife decides she is or is not willing to do many of the things you are expecting of your son.

Indeed, he could very easily fall in love with someone from a different country and emigrate, or with someone who has no intention of spending weekends on a farm. He himself may find that as a married parent working full-time the last thing on earth he wants to do at weekends is manage a farm. What he wants now is absolutely no indication of what he will want 10 years from now.

The Corinthian

Interesting discussion, and when I first started reading it, I must say that I was appalled by the apparent sexism.

Of course things may not be so simple; after all, some practical (if fundamentally traditional) reasons have been voiced for leaving it to the sons. Additionally, it may be that the father genuinely believes that they would make better farmers, regardless of gender. We can't simply assume blind sexism.

Inheritance, I've noticed, tends to be based upon "adequately providing" for one's dependants. For a start, this means that he may leave the farm to his sons, but as long as he leaves adequate compensation to his daughters too, then it's fair. We do not know if this is the case.

Additionally, we are not fully aware of the circumstances. For example, imagine two children. One leaves home and makes a life for themselves and the other one never moves out. Should they both get an equal share? After all, one may argue that the latter child has already spent some of their inheritance, as they have been supported throughout adulthood.

I'm not suggesting any of this is the case here, only that these things are often far more complicated than they first appear.

Unregistered

Unregistered wrote: »

Op here. I dont know if he will be able to take a hands off approach. The place wont be signed over to anyone while Im still alive anyway. Thats certain.

Even if you live to be well into your 80's or 90's [which touch wood in todays medical world is not improbable] ?
Thats a big ask if they have no profit from it other than what might be in a will [a Will that a person would worry about being changed everytime ye have a disagreement]

think who gets most should have to do the minding. Thats only fair.

I disagree.All your children should put whatever effort they are able, into accomadating your needs when you are old and infirm within reason.
Anything less is definitely unfair in my opinion.

the corinthian wrote:

it may be that the father genuinely believes that they would make better farmers, regardless of gender. We can't simply assume blind sexism.

Subliminably or ingrained or otherwise,thats at the root of a lot of the tradition I've been talking about.
They think it's not a womanly occupation.

LegacyUser

We keep talking about the 'children' here like they're infants. All four of them are grown adults.

Why not let them decide how the inheritance should be shared?

Point out that you want it to stay the Murphy (or whatever) farm, and that you cannot divide it as 170 acres is hardly enough to support one family, let alone split two or even four ways.

Tell them that if one of them has a burning passion to inherit it all, they need to come back now, go to ag college, get their green cert, and generally show willing.

They are adults right? Forget you and your husband playing Big Daddy Patriarch. They are grown-ups, find out what they consider fair.

(I really don't get why one man is deciding the fate of his wife and four adult children. You're a family. It's a family farm. Make a family decision. If you can't trust them to discuss this rationally how can you trust them to manage the land when you're gone?)

LegacyUser

Deleted User wrote: »

Even if you live to be well into your 80's or 90's [which touch wood in todays medical world is not improbable] ?
Thats a big ask if they have no profit from it other than what might be in a will [a Will that a person would worry about being changed everytime ye have a disagreement] I disagree.All your children should put whatever effort they are able, into accomadating your needs when you are old and infirm within reason.
Anything less is definitely unfair in my opinion. Subliminably or ingrained or otherwise,thats at the root of a lot of the tradition I've been talking about.
They think it's not a womanly occupation.

Op here. Thanks for all your replies. Yeah Il send her in your direction, then she cant complain about no land:L.

Well I dont think that her looking after us will happen not while she feels so strongly. I cant see her changing or my husband. I have done all I can but neither see the other's viewpoint. If she falls out with her father there is no more I can do. She has already made it very clear to him that she is not happy with his decision and he will also have to respect hers. I dont think anything else can be done. She says she will move out in a few months once she starts work so this will either help or make things worse.

The_Conductor

Unregistered wrote: »

she will move out in a few months once she starts work so this will either help or make things worse.

She will become far more entrenched in her opinions and more intransient- and very possibly feel that she has been driven from the family home.........

skooterblue

kiwikid wrote: »

.

Remember "a son is a son 'til he takes a wife" perhaps your golden boy will tell you what you want to hear and then finds a girl who will not tolerate the smell of slurry / silage in her house. It happens.

As for the question that remains unanswered - will your husband be willing to take a hands off approach when he hands over the farm? will the daughter be expected to mind the parents in their old age when independent living gets too much?

You see its hard for farmers to meet wives. We need to find people of our own background, who will understand there are going to be no romantic dates in the spring with the caving, why tractors need to run 16 hours a day during silage. This is why we have Macra na feirme to "weed out the buyers from the spyers, the needy from the greedy and those shopping from those shoplifting". I couldnt possibly see myself for many reasons being with a person from an urban background because she could never understand mine.

Oh just because you hand over the farm, you can never leave the farm.

As a matter of interest there seem to be two camps here. those who know how a farm runs, season change, what the EU's policy on farming is, what a green cert is and the significance of it. And well those holy joes who are politically correct, shinny shoes who wouldnt know a bale of straw from an AI straw. who think the FAI has something to do with football.

I work for a multi national company, have a degree in medical engineering. Dont have a green cert yet (as I havent been given permission to get one). from a long line of farmers. I hope to inhertit my uncles farms that I have worked on for the last 17 years since I was 15.
Who is next?

skooterblue

smccarrick wrote: »

She will become far more entrenched in her opinions and more intransient- and very possibly feel that she has been driven from the family home.........

what a load of codswallop. She is all gob and no substance. its laughable to think she would leave the farm and not come back. the best she will do is move out of home which might be the best thing for her. Once she finds out she is not in control of the situation she will calm down and see the world as it is. There is no reason she cant live on the farm until one of the boys gets married or she gets married. If anyone doesnt believe me try living with a couple that are not your parents!!

She just needs a dose of maturity and a realisation that they as a family are growing up and have to leave the nest at some time. We all were living away from home permanently before the age of 23. No one only her has talked about leaving, its her own decision and wait till she moves out she wont last on her own with out her family. Farm families are close knit, where everyone depends on each other for the running of the farm.

LegacyUser

skooterblue wrote: »

what a load of codswallop. She is all gob and no substance. its laughable to think she would leave the farm and not come back. the best she will do is move out of home which might be the best thing for her. Once she finds out she is not in control of the situation she will calm down and see the world as it is. There is no reason she cant live on the farm until one of the boys gets married or she gets married. If anyone doesnt believe me try living with a couple that are not your parents!!

She just needs a dose of maturity and a realisation that they as a family are growing up and have to leave the nest at some time. We all were living away from home permanently before the age of 23.

Op here. Thanks for everyones replies. She was in college till now and its not easy to rent while in college. She had a weekend job but last summer had to leave it to go on an internship to boost her chances of getting a good job when she left college and then was not able to get another job this year. However, that is not the issue. I have no problem supporting her through college as we did with the rest. She can live on the farm after the boys get married because they will be made build their own house.

skooterblue

kiwikid wrote: »

Sb,
i would not say it was the same situations for the following reasons,
- Older son got job because you have to wait until a family farm is given to you or else there is no livelyhood to be had. I mean say a 170 acre farm does it support the owners their dependants and the oldest son on a living wage? i don't think so - its been pointed out already anyway its not viable to have both owners at the same time.
- The older son went to ag college (which to me qualifies for one thing only) with a view of taking over the farm, he went out and managed another farm locally and helped on the family farm while his father reared the remaining children on the land. I think the father is wrong in this situation as he raised both to believe they would have the farm. just as op seems to have reared his daughter to think part of the farm was going to be hers - its probably a bitter realization at 20 to think your father thought you were good enough to work the business but you don't have balls so not one scrap can be yours. But that never happened to me thankfully - at best looking back at it as a girl I was probably reared to be a farmers wife moreso than a farmer! my parents were very clear who the farm was going to so nobody was under any illusions from start to finish. But then our farm was bought rather than inherited so i think that made a difference in the approach.

I am totally lost. Agri college is 18 months. 40 years ago 170 acres was a fantastic farm, in the 80's it kept familes going. Today it would not sustain a modern family. In 15 years it is questionable if it will even be viable at that size. There is NO reason why you cant have two courses done. Many of my friends have the green cert just done for tax purposes. I mean the green cert isnt rocket science and is equivalent to the first year of study at an IT. to complete the course all you need are some practical skills, farming knowledege PC skills and some common sense.

Political correctness has no place on a farm. Do as your told, like it or lump it. Your parent did the right thing

kiwikid

skooterblue wrote: »

I am totally lost. Agri college is 18 months. 40 years ago 170 acres was a fantastic farm, in the 80's it kept familes going. Today it would not sustain a modern family. In 15 years it is questionable if it will even be viable at that size. There is NO reason why you cant have two courses done. Many of my friends have the green cert just done for tax purposes. I mean the green cert isnt rocket science and is equivalent to the first year of study at an IT. to complete the course all you need are some practical skills, farming knowledege PC skills and some common sense.

Political correctness has no place on a farm. Do as your told, like it or lump it. Your parent did the right thing

this was not in my family thankfully! But - agri college to me is not just 18 months if you do the farm apprentice course don't you have to do apprenticeships for nearly 2/3 years etc?
Who has to give you permission to do the green cert? wouldn't you have been a bit wiser to have done it when it was online off of your own bat and not waited for permission. And judging from some of the beaut's i know who have achieved it - it surely is not rocket science:D

kiwikid

Deleted User wrote: »

Even if you live to be well into your 80's or 90's [which touch wood in todays medical world is not improbable] ?
Thats a big ask if they have no profit from it other than what might be in a will [a Will that a person would worry about being changed everytime ye have a disagreement] I disagree.All your children should put whatever effort they are able, into accomadating your needs when you are old and infirm within reason.

I disagree - parents have their own lives and their children are not obliged to take care of them. Tradition me eye - and I am reared on a farm and my mother would say the same thing. Why would it be ok to have the one on the free farm and livelyhood handing over the same as the one on checkout in tesco for the nursing home when the parents had the price of their nursing home if they had to sell their farm or schelp of it? If you get the farm you get the whole deal in my book - and thats between the two who did the deal father and son.

Unregistered wrote: »

She can live on the farm after the boys get married because they will be made build their own house.

i think this is the actual issue. You rear your children, do your best and let them off - you should only have reared one to have been the taking over son or perhaps two and decide at the point of handover who was going to do it and leave them both under no illusions that they needed a supplimentary income because farming income is heavily dependent on factors beyond the farmers control and a second job or outlet is crucial if you want your child to have a comfortable living from the farm - hense the number of teachers/auctioneers/undertakers etc who own farms.
But if you think you can make them do anything they will just as easily turn around and make you do things when you are old and infirm... and thats where it believe it always comes from!

kiwikid

kiwikid wrote: »

I disagree - parents have their own lives and their children are not obliged to take care of them. Tradition me eye - and I am reared on a farm and my mother would say the same thing. Why would it be ok to have the one on the free farm and livelyhood handing over the same as the one on checkout in tesco for the nursing home when the parents had the price of their nursing home if they had to sell their farm or schelp of it? If you get the farm you get the whole deal in my book - and thats between the two who did the deal father and son.

It's called caring about your parents...
It's a universal principle..not just farming.
I never mentioned nursing homes.
I'm talking about calling in to see them,spending some time with them,driving them to bingo,doing errands for them etc etc etc

Spending a few hours with them on rotation after that fall that broke their hip, while paddy [or jenifer ) is unavoidably tending the land.

There are those who of course would be "once every 6 months or whenever it can't be avoided" visitors to their parents in their old age at home.
Those type of people are low lifes in my book though.

The "big ask" I'm referrring to by the way in the post you quoted is about a situation where the parents expected paddy [or jenifer] junior to work the farm without ever owning it untill the parents died.

iguana

skooterblue wrote: »

what a load of codswallop. She is all gob and no substance. its laughable to think she would leave the farm and not come back. the best she will do is move out of home which might be the best thing for her. Once she finds out she is not in control of the situation she will calm down and see the world as it is.

Oh right, so there aren't thousands and thousands of families who are torn apart over wills and never speak again? Or many, many children who leave and never speak to their parent's again. You are living in a fantasy land if you don't accept that there is a vary real chance that the OP may lose her daughter over this. Hopefully she won't, but it is a strong possibility where controversial wills are concerned.

skooterblue

kiwikid wrote: »

this was not in my family thankfully! But - agri college to me is not just 18 months if you do the farm apprentice course don't you have to do apprenticeships for nearly 2/3 years etc?
Who has to give you permission to do the green cert? wouldn't you have been a bit wiser to have done it when it was online off of your own bat and not waited for permission. And judging from some of the beaut's i know who have achieved it - it surely is not rocket science:D

Even if you are doing on line you still need farm to take farm accounts from and a farmer to "supervise". If I decided to do my green cert without uncles approval, it would be worse than bringing a U-haul trailer to a funeral. why it is worse is because it means you have already thought and made up your mind and are preparing for his death, which is a very scary concept. My uncle was always generous to SVP, in 3 and 4 figure numbers. One day he got a call from trocaire telling him that they were sending out a form allowing him to donate money to them in his will. This 70 year old man was so upset he ate the face off the wan on the phone and then swore never to donate to charity again. Do you thing me asking him to do my green cert without his advice would be presuming that he without doubt will leave the farm to me. To do you green cert part-time you must have past at least the first year of a level 6 qualification.

skooterblue

iguana wrote: »

Oh right, so there aren't thousands and thousands of families who are torn apart over wills and never speak again? Or many, many children who leave and never speak to their parent's again. You are living in a fantasy land if you don't accept that there is a vary real chance that the OP may lose her daughter over this. Hopefully she won't, but it is a strong possibility where controversial wills are concerned.

Yes these thing do happen but they happen to people in later life. the daughter is young and hot headed and headstrong, as I was in my youth. She is barely out of college, is green and naive to industry and what the world holds. No one has asked her to leave she is throwing up all the barriers here. She is the only person who can take them down again. I also believe you should never give in to emotional blackmail or any other kind. That is what emotional blackmail is isnt it? when you play on someones emotions to coerce them into doing what you want?

iguana

skooterblue wrote: »

I also believe you should never give in to emotional blackmail or any other kind. That is what emotional blackmail is isnt it? when you play on someones emotions to coerce them into doing what you want?

I don't believe it is emotional blackmail on the part of the OP's daughter, no. I think she is feeling unvalued and angry and responding as such. She feels her father loves the farm more than her. And this could very likely destroy the family. Not all families that fall out, fall out later in life. Plenty of families fall out early in life and never fix things and over less than this.

flynnser19

my granda died leavign alot of land to his youngest son and the other 12 children in the family are bitter and they are all talking behind each others backs some dont talk to him or anything???if i were you id divide it evenly and tell your husband to cop on!!we're not living in the dark ages!!realistically if none of them farm it its all gonna be sold no matter who you leave it to so be fair and split it evenly