Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/

Explain non boxer outpunching Holyfield and Froch

2»

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 244 ✭✭pjbrady1


    Guys if Pacquaio is claimed as having devastating power n Khan some are not sure about. How come Khan is dominating him in this sparring session.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g-U4LM46ng&feature=related
    Pacquaio is a proud competitor and Freddie Roache's gym rules (he has stated publicly) is that you go at it, but if you stun someone or wind someone you back off. Khan dominates him with speed and power. Even when he lands just on the gloves there's enough whizz on it to knock Pacquaio back. I am certain Khan has more force on a straight left jab than John Duddy. If you're talking about fast boxers having no power than they are pulling up that shot in the last few milliseconds (bad hands, defensive boxer, fear) or have a rake thin arm (it counts) and poor weight transfer with the hips in action, hence a tiny mass. It's weight and speed nothing else. Technique can only change the direction of that force, n prevent backward movement at moment of impact.
    If someone holds up a pad in front of you n you hit straight through it. That's good technique. Bad technique you might be crooked and glance off it. Hence less force. So leaving aside the directional aid of technique, speed is the main (greater than 50% contributor to force in a punch).
    To work it out it's 1/2 the mass in the punch multipled by the velocity squared.
    John Duddy is approx 20% heavier than Khan. Guess what Khan only has to punch 10% faster than John Duddy to punch with the same force (1.1 squared = 1.21). 14% faster if we say Duddys heavier arm n shoulder gives him 30% more weight transfer.
    Khan might be the fastest in his lighter faster division, Duddy is below average speed in his heavier slower division. I would think Khan is easily 10% - 14% faster than John Duddy.
    (We'll leave aside for the moment technique. Two professional boxers will have roughly similar abilities to transfer weight to a punch. So a 20% heavier guy should transfer approx 30% more weight to the punch given his significantly heavier arm, shoulder n fist. Torso will be about 20% heavier or less. Bigger difference just in the arm n fist)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,148 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Sparring is sparring, but still, Khan has serious speed and skills and is a bigger man than Pac and noticeably so. Pac is only 5 feet5/6 and Khan is 5 feet 9/10.

    Amir is a rangy and tall and fast fighter.

    pjbrady1, I don't think anyone is saying that speed is not a factor, it is a big factor, but you also must have natural weight and force and power with it to gain
    the maximum benefit. Camacho had serious speed, but he didn't have great
    natural and heavy power, so even though his speed was great, the fact that
    he didn't possess heavy hands meant that his shots weren't up to much

    There are also slower hitters who are 'heavier handed.' Naturally heavier handed.

    So, there are a few key ingredients to a heavy punch or forceful punch.

    BTW, Amir hits with decent power, not feather fisted and not dynamite. I would
    rate his power as decent


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭colly10


    walshb wrote: »
    Fellas fellas, speed is just ONE of the factors, and an important one
    too. But, two guys around the same weight who are fairly equal punchers will
    be separated by the speed of the shot, generally, but in the case of a light man and a heavy man, then speed may not be enough for the light man to hit harder
    than the heavy man!

    Khan has POP in his shots because he is so fast and because he does get
    right into the shots, and he's a good digger naturally.

    Hector Camacho for example was grease lightning, but had little POP, because he simply didn't possess good natural power

    +1 - Thank you, the **** being spouted on this thread about speed being the main factor in power so far is laughable, Bernard Dunne would have faster hands than Hopkins but I know who id rather take a punch off

    Anyone here who has never boxed and feels speed = power needs to spar a small faster guy and a big guy and then they'll see the difference in power is obvious, they can spout all they want about physics formulas but when ye get hit by a lad 10kg heavier it nearly takes your head off despite their lack of speed


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭colly10


    pjbrady1 wrote: »
    Guys if Pacquaio is claimed as having devastating power n Khan some are not sure about. How come Khan is dominating him in this sparring session.

    If you think Khan would last more than a round with Pacquaio i'll leave it there. He's wearing headgear for a start and gloves which are much heavier than the gloves you fight with, take 1.25 in that clip for example, that straight left would probably be lights out for Khan if it was thrown during a fight
    pjbrady1 wrote: »
    If you're talking about fast boxers having no power than they are pulling up that shot in the last few milliseconds (bad hands, defensive boxer, fear) or have a rake thin arm (it counts) and poor weight transfer with the hips in action, hence a tiny mass. It's weight and speed nothing else. Technique can only change the direction of that force, n prevent backward movement at moment of impact.
    If someone holds up a pad in front of you n you hit straight through it. That's good technique. Bad technique you might be crooked and glance off it. Hence less force.

    You need the weight to drive through them, the hand might snap out fast but it requires the weight to go through them. If I lost weight now I could improve my hand speed but I would be sacrificing power


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,063 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    colly10 wrote: »
    +1 - Thank you, the **** being spouted on this thread about speed being the main factor in power so far is laughable, Bernard Dunne would have faster hands than Hopkins but I know who id rather take a punch off

    Anyone here who has never boxed and feels speed = power needs to spar a small faster guy and a big guy and then they'll see the difference in power is obvious, they can spout all they want about physics formulas but when ye get hit by a lad 10kg heavier it nearly takes your head off despite their lack of speed
    What are you talking about man.

    Clearly the more weight in a punch is what counts. The faster a guy throws a punch the more weight that will be in it. The bigger guy's weight will mean he hits harder but in this instance its not just about two guys the same size throwing a punch here. Its like one has all his weight behind it and the speed added to that weight really does add to the power.
    A guy standing still has no hope of matching the power of a guy who has all the weight in his body and speed behind him.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭colly10


    eagle eye wrote: »
    The bigger guy's weight will mean he hits harder ....

    This is what im talking about, this is my point, speed matters but size > speed, the big guy is more powerful than the little guy despite not having the same hand speed ... you know the whole going up in weight usually meaning you end up fighting more powerful guys
    eagle eye wrote: »
    but in this instance its not just about two guys the same size throwing a punch here...

    Im not talking about this, im responding to things such a **** talk about a lightweight having one of the most powerful jabs out there and Holyfield getting a lower score because he doesn't have the hand speed etc


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,148 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    For me, colly10 is on the right track and the point made by colly10 about science and formulae being not "all that" in the real world is on the money.

    One other point I want to make is that IMO, there are two distinct types
    of punchers, one is the fast and snappy puncher, and the other is the heavy handed and forceful puncher.

    Some men generate great speed and snap in the shot but it lacks the force and power to KO, where others lack the snap and speed, but the shot is so heavy and forceful. Now, I have taken both types of shots and I would rather take the former to be honest. The heavy and forceful
    hitters are the 'born' hitters. These hitters are natural

    Then there are the fast, snappy and heavy combined. The Hearns shots and Juilan Jackson shots.

    The KO shot comes from the toes right up to the shoulder. It's power that is
    created all the way through a person's body. It's inside them, natural, and it just
    needs tweaking and polishing and technique to become absolutely deadly.

    Some persons have it and others don't.

    And the main factors contributing are weight, speed, natural power and technique


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 159 ✭✭itouchmyself


    They done this before with one off them machines and Frank Bruno and some fat b*stard from a pub in England... Fat boy won, anyone who actually thinks the footballer could hit harder than EVANDER HOLYFIELD needs a reality check and not worth talking to in my opinion!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    walshb wrote: »
    One other point I want to make is that IMO, there are two distinct types
    of punchers, one is the fast and snappy puncher, and the other is the heavy handed and forceful puncher.

    Some men generate great speed and snap in the shot but it lacks the force and power to KO, where others lack the snap and speed, but the shot is so heavy and forceful. Now, I have taken both types of shots and I would rather take the former to be honest. The heavy and forceful
    hitters are the 'born' hitters. These hitters are natural


    Bren i hope you dont mind me using you and me as an example,

    when me and bren trained together when we where competing bren was slightly heavier and definetly faster than me while he was still in the club, but i was probably the bigger puncher, we obviously threw our punches with different techniques, bren was a great score puncher and i would of been looking for the finish more than scores, bren was 1 of the fastest boxers i'd ever seen but would admit big punching was not his thing, not saying he was weak though!!

    The stupid thing about this thread is that Evander threw a fast punch with no intent or body weight behind it, and his score was not bad, the others threw all there weight in, i never seen frochs effort so cant comment on it, Evander without a shadow of a doubt would punch harder than any of them if he wanted..

    speed and weight are massive parts of power-this is a fact but technique is what lets you transfer your full weight at speed making a punch truly powerful.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,148 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cowzerp wrote: »
    , bren was 1 of the fastest boxers i'd ever seen but would admit big punching was not his thing, not saying he was weak though!!

    That's it Paul, I am making a comeback. I still have it..cheers:)

    BTW, your assessment is spot on, heavy hitting and strength was
    your forte. Pure boxer/puncher...

    Anyway, enough of this back patting!

    BTW, I hit harder now, although, that is maybe because I am
    11 stone and not 8 stone 6 lbs


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 328 ✭✭mufc4lfe


    Forget all this technical ****e,Evander didnt try and hit it hard in contrast to the others who gave it their all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 888 ✭✭✭shamblertine


    They done this before with one off them machines and Frank Bruno and some fat b*stard from a pub in England... Fat boy won, anyone who actually thinks the footballer could hit harder than EVANDER HOLYFIELD needs a reality check and not worth talking to in my opinion!!!

    haven't you just contradicted yourself there? you say a fat boy hit harder than bruno but a footballer would never hit harder than holyfield?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 888 ✭✭✭shamblertine


    What I think is interesting too, is that Danny Dyer's punch was almost as hard as the much bigger guy who went after him. Dyer if he was a boxer would be what, a middleweight maybe, and he hit near enough as hard as that guy who went after him who would be a heavyweight if he was a boxer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,041 ✭✭✭colly10


    What I think is interesting too, is that Danny Dyer's punch was almost as hard as the much bigger guy who went after him. Dyer if he was a boxer would be what, a middleweight maybe, and he hit near enough as hard as that guy who went after him who would be a heavyweight if he was a boxer.

    Neither of the 2 have decent technique so anything can happen. Also one may be in better shape at his weight than the other. Or a combination of the 2, or maybe one got lucky and landed far cleaner than the other....

    The difference between an untrained middleweight and untrained heavyweight is not similar to the difference between an trained middleweight and a trained heavyweight.
    With trained boxers the difference in power as you move up in the weights is obvious, im not taking the piss when I say it's as clear as day and anyone who has stepped in the ring with a bigger or smaller guy will tell you the same. I fight at 75kg myself and have good power and am muscular at my weight, if I was to fight a heavyweight though although I would be faster than him I would not trouble him with my power and he'd nearly take my head off my shoulders when he lands.

    When you place massive emphases on speed and talk about it being more important than weight then you have to ask yourself why the likes of Manny Pacquaio would argue over the like of a 2 pound difference in a catch weight and why his trainer (possibly the best in the world) believes that 2 pounds makes a huge difference on how that fight would pan out.

    Your arguing about lightweights having similar power as middleweights and middleweights having similar power to heavyweights and your arguing it with people who take the shots a few times a week. If you spent some time in the ring you wouldn't need convincing


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 244 ✭✭pjbrady1


    Colly 10 I make my argument based on facts of science. Then yourself and others dismiss my arguments based on this notion that "Science don't work in the real world". It's modern sports scientists who have advised boxers to call a halt to the daily ten mile run routines of the past. Dismissing Science is ridiculous. Phrases such as "natural power", "natural strength", "heavy hands", their all just different variations of the same Scientific laws.
    Using Manny Pacquaios arguments over a 2lb catchweight for a bout proves what???? It would more clearly prove Mannys heavier opponents are coming down in weight, so Manny wants to weight drain them. If they're coming down in weight 2lbs more than they'd like it should drain their energy levels a little bit more. Then the advantage to Manny is in stamina in the later rounds. If they could get it, they'd bring an opponent down 3lbs, 4lbs. Manny is smaller so he is full of energy at those lighter weights, his opponents are not. You're the boxer, that should be screamingly obvious for that situation.

    If you go back to my longer post with the Science, you see that I have taken technique out of the argument. Read it clearly, two professional boxers should have similar abilities to put their maximal weight behind a punch using good boxing technique. Once they have launched their weight well then we are down to speed. I even allowed for a heavier boxers heavier hands, forearms n shoulders. So yes a 20% heavier boxer may get 30% more weight into the shot or more.
    Your argument concerning Bernard Dunne and Bernard Hopkins is a ridiculous retort to the whole debate. Dunne is a super Bantamweight n hopkins is a Light Heavyweight. So your problem straight away would be the size of Dunnes Hands compared to Hopkins shovels. Anyone who has used a smaller/bigger sledge hammer sees the effect in momentum of having a heavier weight at the end of the hit. N anyone who has shook hands with Mick Dowling (I did once) or Bernard Dunne can see how small a bantamweights hands are compared to a typical persons.

    To stir it up again :) A weight (boxers punch weight) launched at a target will produce a force directly proportional to the square of the speed.

    You are right though in some of the statements you are making. Your power would not trouble a heavyweight. But then look at the jawbone and neck of anyone who stands 6'4" and weighs 16 stone. Also putting all your effort into a right hook landing on the sweet spot (all your effort) you could be well capable of knocking out a heavyweight, I'd be confident you could have knocked out Michael Moorer n he was a heavyweight (glass jawed though). Just in a ring situation someone 5'10 will struggle to get a clean shot on someone 6'4".
    One of the main reasons bigger boxers aren't troubled by smaller boxers is reach and neck/jaw. Watch Klitschko round one against Chagaev and see how actually pathetically unpowerful a large mans left jab can be if he is slow. Honestly Klitschko had nothing on his left jab and he's 18 stone. But he could use his reach to push off Chagaev n time up the right when he wanted.
    It only takes a small jab to put someone off as they advance in. It won't be damaging but it unbalances n blinds.
    N all large slow mens best punch is a straight right down the middle with all their weight behind it to make up for their lack of speed. Lennox Lewis was the same. His main shot was his straight right. Very rarely take you out with hooks or combos snapped at pace.
    Carl Froch is the same, we've seen countless of his fights, try n point to a single decent left jab that stunned anyone. N yer talking about hundreds of left jabs thrown there. Again that particular fighter has to rely on stamina as he has average speed.

    Finally to wrap up the main reason fighters end up finished offensive wise (defense speed gone too I know), is that they age n their speed goes, n they can no longer offer much of an offensive threat when they do land. Older heavyweights are much heavier than in their prime yet their power is seriously dimished, please explain that logically? Same technique, same boxer, more weight, much less speed, and therefore much less power. Do we agree on that surely?
    What could be a better demonstration of speed being the major factor in power than the same heavier boxer having less power due to the effects of age reducing his handspeed?

    I'll wager too that Roy Jones in his prime could hit all of the following shots harder from a standing position than Klitcschko left hook, right hook, n left jab. Now Klitcschko would be much stronger with a straight right n right uppercut. The two punches where his massive weight advantage takes over. Could 18 stone Klitchsko ever hit as powerful a right hook as in the link below, from a standing position with only a half step in like Jones does? Straight question standing position, half step in proper right hook around the side. Not a shot now where he was able to dive full into it n take full step.
    No vague explanations involving head clean off, natural power, mincemeat of Jones etc. See Jones right hook below, a shot solely demonstrating speeds massive contribution to power, seeing as it's difficult to put much weight on this shot (see how he throws it), Jones demonstrates knockout power with speed alone n a small amount o weight.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWQlbOkKCD0

    I'v never had a boxing match but I know that you can't get much weight behind that shot due to the body position, so it was purely down to speed. It is possible for a super middleweight to punch like a heavy weight on certain punches.

    Now full bodied into it with a full step a heavyweight can throw a harder right hook. But as demonstrated above it's not impossible to outdo their power being the much lighter man for certain punches.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 244 ✭✭pjbrady1


    I was looking back over Klitchscko Chagaev.
    N I have to say I'm changing my opinion on Klitschkos punching power ... revising it downwards that is. In all fight situations even with a full step in prime Roy Jones throws a harder straight right n right hook than current Klitcsko. Guys it's actually hard to pick out the damaging shots in any o the rounds. (I'll admit I'v always had something against Klitschko mainly the thought that he was there for the taking if you had a middlin decent heavyweight go up against him)
    N when I look at David Haye I have to say he completely owns Klitchsko for power. As long as ref would warn him for holding I'm not seeing the firepower he's often proclaimed to have that would win that contest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,148 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    I don't think anyone is dismissing science, but it is not 100
    percent accurate because it does not take into account nature and
    genetics. Some beings are born with a heavy punch.

    So, you can do all the tests you want with all the formulae, and you
    can have two equal weighted men to throw the same shot, same technique with equal speed, and this does not mean that equal power is displayed.

    One man may simply have more innate force and power thru his body. Same speed, weight and equal technique and still you are not guaranteed equal
    results.

    I agree that if you clone two men and apply all the data equally, then YES, the same results will come out, same with a car or a tool. The difference
    with humans and this science is that some humans are simply
    programmed at conception to be naturally heavier handed.

    Take two identical hammers and use a machine to slam them into a wall
    at equal speeds, you will get identical impact. Now, take two equal weighted
    humans and get them to throw an identical punch at identical speeds with identical technique and you are not guaranteed equality


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 244 ✭✭pjbrady1


    I agree with walshb on the weight issue. For instance two men can be 11 stone weight. The taller ganglier one would generally not be able to throw as powerful a punch as the more squat muscular one. Now I know that's handed over at birth, but it's all still science.
    Also two men of seemingly equal build n weight n height one can have far more general strength. The stronger guy will generally be able to punch harder than the weaker man.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,148 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    pjbrady1 wrote: »
    I agree with walshb on the weight issue. For instance two men can be 11 stone weight. The taller ganglier one would generally not be able to throw as powerful a punch as the more squat muscular one. Now I know that's handed over at birth, but it's all still science.
    Also two men of seemingly equal build n weight n height one can have far more general strength. The stronger guy will generally be able to punch harder than the weaker man.

    Hearns was tall and gangly, or appeared so, frame size
    or shape has little to do with it. Julian Jackson wasn't the fastest
    hitter in the world, or the most muscular. He was ripped and lean and hit like
    a lunatic.

    Two equal weighted men: To try and predict which of the two, regardless
    of frame shape or size, hit the hardest, would be hard to do. This is taking
    into account equal speed and technique

    Some of the strongest people are actually skinny and lean, as opposed
    to squat and muscular. Equal weight obviousy!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 244 ✭✭pjbrady1


    When I wrote the "tall gangly" piece I was considering mentioning Hearns, thought it would be more fun for someone else to bring it up.
    Personally I thought in Hagler Hearns he didn't trouble Hagler with his power.
    He shoulda been holding up Hagler better in his advances if he was that big a hitter. In that fight his power didn't dazzle me. He landed clean several times n it never looked like Hagler was bout to fall. Interested in ye're opinions on that one, I'm not ruling out Hearns being powerful.

    I know some lean thin people are strong but generally strong people have more thickness to them. The big hitters need a bit more musculature.
    So usually the big hitting middle weights are black fighters as they have that naturally thicker shoulder at the same weight. Black sprinters have it as well on the shoulder. White guys struggle to have similar at the same bodyweight.
    Compare Pavlik, Calzaghe, Froch to Lacy, Jones, n Pascal.
    But the flip side is that the likes o Calzaghe, Froch have better stamina.
    When a white person goes up to that thicker build they find it harder to maintain speed n agility. It's just fro generally looking at what we've seen in the middle weight division down the years. Just remembered Kessler has a thick build, but he's not agile. He's probably be more agile 7 lbs lighter. Gain some n you lose some I suppose.


  • Advertisement
  • Closed Accounts Posts: 159 ✭✭itouchmyself


    haven't you just contradicted yourself there? you say a fat boy hit harder than bruno but a footballer would never hit harder than holyfield?

    No I said the fat boy got a better score on a stupid machine not that he hit harder!! As I said I wont even bother getting into cause Id really like to think nobody is as stupid to look at that and think the footballer can hit harder!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,549 ✭✭✭✭cowzerp


    PJBRADY-you clearly dont understand the mechanics and amount of reasons why 1 human might out punch another, its far more technical than a simple strenght or power formula.

    Some reasons, Speed, weight, Height, Arm strenght, Leg strenght, Torso Strenght, Technique, Muscle fibre types-some people are built for endurance and some power, comparing people using the power formula does not work in a sport such as boxing-it does give ways to improve someone but if it was factual then every good fighter of the same weight would punch the same assuming there the same speed-this is not the case, Mayweather is fast and muscular for his weight but not overly powerful, Calzaghe had decent speed and little power, Naseem had big power and it came through his legs which is very different than say a big torso and arm puncher such as Foreman.

    Rush Boxing club and Rush Martial Arts head coach.



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 244 ✭✭pjbrady1


    Cowzerp I wouldn't disagree on any o them.
    Calzaghe - fast hands, but not blinding, n his technique was poor so not much power.
    He fought often in a skirmishy style nearly throwing left n right together.
    His power was average, he has a runners type build so slight upper body. He is 6' 1" so I wouldn't expect him to be muscular n powerful at 12 stone 7bs.
    N with his upright stance he was never really pushing into the shots with his legs.
    Nazeen - Really dove into shots using his legs n had good speed, n was a light weight. I agree he was powerful.
    Mayweather - decent power. Hands are probably an issue at this stage. But I think he's one o the few boxers could have thrown that shot to knock out Hatton. The way he had his left hand ready, I think with him he has a really flexible hips n strong core, so he can lean in quickly to a punch and to defend when leaning away.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 59,148 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Cal had the perfect balance, footwork and motion, he just had little natural power and he slapped a fair bit. He was fairly fast for a biggish man


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 244 ✭✭pjbrady1


    Calzaghe was more about wearing a man down. Even when he would have a guy in trouble he would stand near, with feet parallel and just whirl away left n right. Don't think he liked risking his hands with bigger shots.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,051 ✭✭✭Big Ears


    pjbrady1 wrote: »
    Calzaghe was more about wearing a man down. Even when he would have a guy in trouble he would stand near, with feet parallel and just whirl away left n right. Don't think he liked risking his hands with bigger shots.

    He had no qualms about it when he was younger, hence he was considered quite a big puncher till about the Evans Ashira fight(where he broke his hand and fought the bout one handed), when Calzaghe seemed to adopt a new approach due to his brittle hands.


Advertisement