Explain non boxer outpunching Holyfield and Froch

pjbrady1

Hi guys,

Thought this thread might stir up some interesting debate.
Soccer AM proved that an untrained non-boxer was able to hit harder on a straight right punch than a former Heavyweight world champion (still training at time) who was using decent Technique and a fair good percentage of effort.

Now I'v seen claims on here before that non-boxers would be totally outclassed when it would even come down to power (leaving aside technique). So explain the non-boxer completely outpunching Evander Holyfield!!!!! Evander could hit harder, but he was a long way short of the guys 833 score, about 100 short. So it appears Evander would really have to up his speed to get his score up. Making me think speed is more important for punching power, not technique. Technique without the speed is useless.
N I believe the guy Danny once played for Forest so as a recently retired footballer he should have more natural speed than Holyfield or Froch who are both stamina men.

It's on youtube here (hope link works):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJxCiJYDYRg

joepenguin

Id say because the lads threw all their bodyweight behind theirs. They all threw right straightish haymakers. Evander threw a cross from gaurd position.

Boxers wouldnt wind back and throw a massive shot like that as youd get a stiff jab in the mush everytime or a counter of some description.

walshb

A bit of a Happy Gilmore here.

Anyway, you could see that Holy barely commited to the shot.
It was so nonchalant and I agree with Joe, the others semed to give
everything with their whole weight behind the shots.

cowzerp

I watched that live and evander hit it with about 10% force, he deliberately did not want to look like he was trying hard, if he hit it hard the force would of been double the next best score.

nacho libre

yeah you can see clearly Holyfield barley put anything into the punch. I was surprised Julian Dicks( the former West Ham Hardman) didn't register a higher score than the other two. i would like to have seen the rock having a go.

joker77

joepenguin wrote: »

Id say because the lads threw all their bodyweight behind theirs. They all threw right straightish haymakers. Evander threw a cross from gaurd position.

Boxers wouldnt wind back and throw a massive shot like that as youd get a stiff jab in the mush everytime or a counter of some description.

Exactly, all those machines measure is someone's ability to run at something and hit it.
Holyfield hit 700+ from a STANDING position, no run up.

T-K-O

That was clearly a love tap from Holyfield.

pjbrady1

Thanks for the replies guys,

At his age too Holyfields snap is gone, as in his punches wouldn't have that kepop that you see on fit 20 to 30 somethings. N someone with natural speed in the hands n a reasonable run up can generate massive power. We've all seen it in the amusement arcade, fit guy maybe 13 stone absolutely wallop the thing, lights out game over type punch. The real skill is in avoiding being hit and hitting while an opponent is trying to retreat advance.
N massive power usually means a massive miss, very draining to miss, sometimes worse than taking a jab.

cowzerp

I dont think you get it! he got a decent score with a pure arm punch, if he put any venom into it he would of gone way over 1000 on it, he was only chilling out! big guys swinging like mad things at it does not mean they can compare to a anyone, a boxer of similar weight and the same intention will always outscore these big lads,

i was in england a few months ago and all these rugby lads where getting decent scores and when little me walked over they where laughing and saying to set it to womens, i blasted it way harder than all them and sat down as if it was nothing, just to make it look good!!

walshb

My view is simple. A non boxer could have a heavier punch than a boxer, but the technique and timing and rhythm and balance needed to deliver it is so
important, and this is where the experienced boxer will have an advantage

Also, in the example above, Holy didn't commit to the shot like the others. They gave it their all and that is part of the reason they scored higher.

If Holy really committed, plus got a wee run up, he would have beat them I am sure

Also, Holy's age will have deteriorated his punch, but even being older, he would still
be a heavier hitter than the other guys.

You are born with a punch and it's the training and dedication that perfects it I believe.
So, a non boxer could be blessed with power and even without the technique, he could do serious damage, and with the technique, he would be more lethal

pjbrady1

I wouldn't take anything from Rugby guys punching. I'm 13 stone.
I'd be confident I could have nearly as hard a straight right as Marcus Horan, Paul O'Connell. They might massively out weigh me, but I can throw a punch way faster than they can. Simple Physics. Power o the punch is proportional to the square of the speed (n how much weight you can transfer into it which they would have an advantage). Also they have overdeveloped pecs, shoulders n biceps.
All that extra mass really slows your punching down.
In my opinion a fair percentage of people actually throw a pretty reasonable straight right without much guidance.
Holyfield could punch harder, but from the video it looks like a massive hit is needed to put it above 950. He needs a fair enough improvement in speed to put it above 800. So I'm not sure he'd be head n shoulders above the others.
He might only be able to up the speed of his punch 10 - 15%. He was never the worlds fastest heavyweight.
Like you could make the valid case that Amir Khan can jab harder than guys much heavier than him due to his hand speed. The shot lands with such pace that it has way more force.

joepenguin

What about someone like a javelin thrower? The list could go on. Boxers punch the way they do so they will be accurate, hit the target and protect their hands. I think Holyfield was just being humble throwing it from the gaurd.
How high do you think the lads would have scored if you took away their run.

I also think the Rock should have had a shot, the machine is there for a bit of craic.

Although interestingly the guy who went before Holy didnt take a run and scored the same pretty much.

amacachi

I think some of the boxing heads are getting a bit too technical as if there's something to explain, he barely hit the thing ffs.
Also those machines are BS.I've scored higher on one of them with a headbutt without a run up than I could with a punch. :pac:

eagle eye

Jeebus, you got it the first time. He hit a punch from a standing position while the others hit it as hard as they could with all their bodyweight and velocity behind them.
I suppose its similar to a the one where a guy walks on to your punch and it will hurt him where as if he is moving away from the exact same shot it won't hurt him nearly as much.

Its quite simple really.

nacho libre

joepenguin wrote: »

I also think the Rock should have had a shot, the machine is there for a bit of craic.

Although interestingly the guy who went before Holy didnt take a run and scored the same pretty much.

the Rock was obviously being chicken, he was afraid it would destroy his action hero image if he lost to the regular joes:pac:

Julian Dicks was the other guy, he didn't put all his bodyweight into it but he clearly put much more effort into it than Holyfield.

walshb

pjbrady1 wrote: »

I wouldn't take anything from Rugby guys punching. I'm 13 stone.
I'd be confident I could have nearly as hard a straight right as Marcus Horan, Paul O'Connell. They might massively out weigh me, but I can throw a punch way faster than they can. Simple Physics. Power o the punch is proportional to the square of the speed (n how much weight you can transfer into it which they would have an advantage). Also they have overdeveloped pecs, shoulders n biceps.
All that extra mass really slows your punching down.
In my opinion a fair percentage of people actually throw a pretty reasonable straight right without much guidance.
Holyfield could punch harder, but from the video it looks like a massive hit is needed to put it above 950. He needs a fair enough improvement in speed to put it above 800. So I'm not sure he'd be head n shoulders above the others.
He might only be able to up the speed of his punch 10 - 15%. He was never the worlds fastest heavyweight.
Like you could make the valid case that Amir Khan can jab harder than guys much heavier than him due to his hand speed. The shot lands with such pace that it has way more force.

Whether the guy is a rugby player, an F1 driver, a sprinter, an accountant, a doctor etc has ZERO to do with it.

Paul O'Connell for example is a big big strong man who I am quite sure
could exert a lot of force if he connected with a cleanly thrown punch.

His sport has nothing to do with it. The sport that trains the punch is boxing, so boxers will have the advanatge of experience, training and technique over any normal joe soap; but it still does not mean that the boxer will always be hitting harder. Like I said, some folks are born with natural raw power

As mentioned, speed has a lot to do with the force a punch exerts, but remember, you also need the natural power. I am sure that I will throw a shot much faster than Bruno, but no way in hell will I exert the same force.

So, weight, speed, and natural power all play the part.
You may well throw a shot faster than the big men, but their extra weight
and possible natural power may even it out or even beat you

I have seen it in gyms many times, non boxers doin' a bit of training and they
have fairly powerful shots, with little in the way of great technique; just
naturally strong hitters!

shamblertine

carl froch also got beat by danny dyer which is quite funny

redout

Lads that was nothing more than a bitch slap from Evander and if you cant see that then god help you. He most likely would have broken the bloody thing had he wanted to.

colly10

Making me think speed is more important for punching power, not technique.

Speed helps but technique is vital, im boxing about a year and a half and the difference in the power of my shots from when I started to now is massive purely because im working the right muscles hitting a heavy bag and I have good technique.
The difference between a boxer and someone who doesn't box is obvious in terms of the power they get in the shot, I know this from getting in to spar new lads, they just don't land with the same power

They might massively out weigh me, but I can throw a punch way faster than they can. Simple Physics.

Not really, get caught clean by a fighter 10kg's lighter and you'll take the shot, if there 10kg's heavier you probably won't. If 2 guys are in equally good shape and one is a good bit heavier the heavier guy will have the harder shot unless the lighter guy is a genetic freak. Smaller guys are nearly always faster but don't have the same power

Like you could make the valid case that Amir Khan can jab harder than guys much heavier than him due to his hand speed. The shot lands with such pace that it has way more force.

Theres no power in the shot though, it's just fast, speed alone does not make it powerfull, you need the weight in the shot to drive it through their head

shamblertine

colly10 wrote: »

Theres no power in the shot though, it's just fast, speed alone does not make it powerfull, you need the weight in the shot to drive it through their head

Come on how can you say Khan isn't powerful? He nearly took the heads off some of those guys he knocked out.

shamblertine

redout wrote: »

Lads that was nothing more than a bitch slap from Evander and if you cant see that then god help you. He most likely would have broken the bloody thing had he wanted to.

but whats frochs excuse for the poor showing?

colly10

shamblertine wrote: »

Come on how can you say Khan isn't powerful? He nearly took the heads off some of those guys he knocked out.

Powerful in his weight yes but not more powerful than vitali klitscho for example, im responding to someone who seems to believe that speed = power.
Look at the bit on Khan that I quoted and you'll see what im talking about, he's knocking the head off 9 1/2 stone fighters by the way

pjbrady1

Just to respond to Colly 10.
The main component of force in a punch is speed. Undeniable.
No need to get too technical or scientific about it.
For example if you put up a force measuring tool and asked John Duddy to throw a left jab.
Now get Amir Khan one of the fastest professional boxers in the game to throw a left jab. Khan will register almost as much force as Duddy on his left jab. The reason being the pure difference in speed.
There a lot of myths about boxers punching force. One Manchester University calculated that Ricky Hatton could punch harder than a premiership footballer could kick a football, which was plainly ridiculous to any sane person.

colly10

pjbrady1 wrote: »

Just to respond to Colly 10.
The main component of force in a punch is speed. Undeniable ................
Now get Amir Khan one of the fastest professional boxers in the game to throw a left jab. Khan will register almost as much force as Duddy on his left jab. The reason being the pure difference in speed.

So Khan is far far faster but not as powerful as the much slower Duddy yet the main component in power is speed

walshb

Fellas fellas, speed is just ONE of the factors, and an important one
too. But, two guys around the same weight who are fairly equal punchers will
be separated by the speed of the shot, generally, but in the case of a light man and a heavy man, then speed may not be enough for the light man to hit harder
than the heavy man!

Khan has POP in his shots because he is so fast and because he does get
right into the shots, and he's a good digger naturally.

Hector Camacho for example was grease lightning, but had little POP, because he simply didn't possess good natural power

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Fellas fellas, speed is just ONE the factors, and an important one
too. But, two guys around the same weight who are fairly equal punchers will
be separated by the speed of the shot, generally but in the case of a light man and a heavy man, then speed may not be enough for the light man.

Khan has POP in his shots because he is so fast and because he does get
right into the shots, and he's a good digger naturally.

Hector Camacho for example was grease lightning, but had little POP, because he simply didn't possess good natural power

I think Khan's a bad example of speed resulting in power. More than one man he's faced have said he's very fast and accurate but not a strong puncher(Gomez and Barrera). If he could really punch he'd have been rocking Barrera around the place with all the clean shots he landed. Now he wasn't putting everything into those shots as he was petrified of getting countered but he still should of been having more effect.

Zab Judah and Pacquiao would be examples I'd have of speed(combined with technique) resulting in devastating power capable of hurting and knocking out much bigger men.

walshb

Big Ears wrote: »

I think Khan's a bad example of speed resulting in power. More than one man he's faced have said he's very fast and accurate but not a strong puncher(Gomez and Barrera). If he could really punch he'd have been rocking Barrera around the place with all the clean shots he landed. Now he wasn't putting everything into those shots as he was petrified of getting countered but he still should of been having more effect.

Zab Judah and Pacquiao would be examples I'd have of speed(combined with technique) resulting in devastating power capable of hurting and knocking out much bigger men.

Well, Graham Earl may disagree and
this guy below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rbnTJcnn_M....45 secs into clip

The point is, whatever power Khan has, it is greatly due to the
delivery speed. I am not saying he hits like Hearns.

So, whatever power he does have is greatly influenced
by Khan's speed and more so than his actual natural power

vs. Barerra, Khan was cautious, picking the shots and not trying
to be overly aggressive with them. Hey, will all Khan's
opponents say he hits hard? No, some will not, but he does have POP
and the POP comes from his speed!

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

Well, Graham Earl may disagree and
this guy below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rbnTJcnn_M....45 secs into clip

The point is, whatever power Khan has, it is greatly due to the
delivery speed. I am not saying he hits like Hearns.

So, whatever power he does have is greatly influenced
by Khan's speed and more so than his actual natural power

vs. Barerra, Khan was cautious, picking the shots and not trying
to be overly aggressive with them. Hey, will all Khan's
opponents say he hits hard? No, some will not, but he does have POP
and the POP comes from his speed!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bNNZaa4h_Q

That's Henry 'I'm barely domestic title level' Castle doing pretty much the same thing.

At a World Class level Amir Khan is not a puncher, although he is phenomenally quick. Khan has fought one fighter that fought at the very top of the sport, one that fought at World level and one that fought at fringe World title level and they are the fighters that don't think much of his power.

Khan went 10 rounds with Featherweight Gairy St.Clair without putting a dent in him.
4 months later featherfisted Australian prospect William Kickett had St.Clair on the floor twice in their fight.

Now there's been over a year since that fight so it's not quite the same but Featherweight Jackson Asiku floored twice and stopped St.Clair in his last bout. Now with results like that you really would expect someone who is a puncher at Lightweight to get the job done over 10 rounds or at least visibly shake him once.

Khan's not featherfisted, but above European level his punch power is really lacking and it's gonna hurt him at World level.

walshb

you seem to be debating a completely separate issue here.

I never said Khan is a mega hitter or a Hearns like hitter.

I am simply saying that WHATEVER power he does possess
is greatly helped by his speed. Khan's speed of delivery is
the key to his shots having "their" power.

You want to debate whether or not Khan is a big hitter, that is
a separate debate. The point I am making is that his "power" comes
primarily due to "his" speed!

Do I personally think he's a big hitter? No. A good hitter with
a decent and damaging shot? Yes!

Put it this way, he's a better digger than Dunne, Camacho and Pea IMO!

And probably Kotelnik!

Big Ears

walshb wrote: »

you seem to be debating a completely separate issue here.

I never said Khan is a mega hitter or a Hearns like hitter.

I am simply saying that WHATEVER power he does possess
is greatly helped by his speed. Khan's speed of delivery is
the key to his shots having "their" power.

You want to debate whether or not Khan is a big hitter, that is
a separate debate. The point I am making is that his "power" comes
primarily due to "his" speed!

Do I personally think he's a big hitter? No. A good hitter with
a decent and damaging shot? Yes!

Put it this way, he's a better digger than Dunne, Camacho and Pea IMO!

And probably Kotelnik!

Oh, I'll definitely agree what power he does have comes from his speed of that there's no question.
He probably does hit harder that Kotelnik, the Ukranian isn't much of a puncher. Lucky for him he mightn't need to be.

Daroxtar

Speed would be a big factor but weight is also a big factor. I'd rather get hit on the head by a tennis ball travelling at 50 mph than get hit by a football travelling at 50 mph. The tennis ball might sting but the football would flatten you due to the inertial force.

pjbrady1

Guys if Pacquaio is claimed as having devastating power n Khan some are not sure about. How come Khan is dominating him in this sparring session.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g-U4LM46ng&feature=related
Pacquaio is a proud competitor and Freddie Roache's gym rules (he has stated publicly) is that you go at it, but if you stun someone or wind someone you back off. Khan dominates him with speed and power. Even when he lands just on the gloves there's enough whizz on it to knock Pacquaio back. I am certain Khan has more force on a straight left jab than John Duddy. If you're talking about fast boxers having no power than they are pulling up that shot in the last few milliseconds (bad hands, defensive boxer, fear) or have a rake thin arm (it counts) and poor weight transfer with the hips in action, hence a tiny mass. It's weight and speed nothing else. Technique can only change the direction of that force, n prevent backward movement at moment of impact.
If someone holds up a pad in front of you n you hit straight through it. That's good technique. Bad technique you might be crooked and glance off it. Hence less force. So leaving aside the directional aid of technique, speed is the main (greater than 50% contributor to force in a punch).
To work it out it's 1/2 the mass in the punch multipled by the velocity squared.
John Duddy is approx 20% heavier than Khan. Guess what Khan only has to punch 10% faster than John Duddy to punch with the same force (1.1 squared = 1.21). 14% faster if we say Duddys heavier arm n shoulder gives him 30% more weight transfer.
Khan might be the fastest in his lighter faster division, Duddy is below average speed in his heavier slower division. I would think Khan is easily 10% - 14% faster than John Duddy.
(We'll leave aside for the moment technique. Two professional boxers will have roughly similar abilities to transfer weight to a punch. So a 20% heavier guy should transfer approx 30% more weight to the punch given his significantly heavier arm, shoulder n fist. Torso will be about 20% heavier or less. Bigger difference just in the arm n fist)

walshb

Sparring is sparring, but still, Khan has serious speed and skills and is a bigger man than Pac and noticeably so. Pac is only 5 feet5/6 and Khan is 5 feet 9/10.

Amir is a rangy and tall and fast fighter.

pjbrady1, I don't think anyone is saying that speed is not a factor, it is a big factor, but you also must have natural weight and force and power with it to gain
the maximum benefit. Camacho had serious speed, but he didn't have great
natural and heavy power, so even though his speed was great, the fact that
he didn't possess heavy hands meant that his shots weren't up to much

There are also slower hitters who are 'heavier handed.' Naturally heavier handed.

So, there are a few key ingredients to a heavy punch or forceful punch.

BTW, Amir hits with decent power, not feather fisted and not dynamite. I would
rate his power as decent

colly10

walshb wrote: »

Fellas fellas, speed is just ONE of the factors, and an important one
too. But, two guys around the same weight who are fairly equal punchers will
be separated by the speed of the shot, generally, but in the case of a light man and a heavy man, then speed may not be enough for the light man to hit harder
than the heavy man!

Khan has POP in his shots because he is so fast and because he does get
right into the shots, and he's a good digger naturally.

Hector Camacho for example was grease lightning, but had little POP, because he simply didn't possess good natural power

+1 - Thank you, the **** being spouted on this thread about speed being the main factor in power so far is laughable, Bernard Dunne would have faster hands than Hopkins but I know who id rather take a punch off

Anyone here who has never boxed and feels speed = power needs to spar a small faster guy and a big guy and then they'll see the difference in power is obvious, they can spout all they want about physics formulas but when ye get hit by a lad 10kg heavier it nearly takes your head off despite their lack of speed

colly10

pjbrady1 wrote: »

Guys if Pacquaio is claimed as having devastating power n Khan some are not sure about. How come Khan is dominating him in this sparring session.

If you think Khan would last more than a round with Pacquaio i'll leave it there. He's wearing headgear for a start and gloves which are much heavier than the gloves you fight with, take 1.25 in that clip for example, that straight left would probably be lights out for Khan if it was thrown during a fight

pjbrady1 wrote: »

If you're talking about fast boxers having no power than they are pulling up that shot in the last few milliseconds (bad hands, defensive boxer, fear) or have a rake thin arm (it counts) and poor weight transfer with the hips in action, hence a tiny mass. It's weight and speed nothing else. Technique can only change the direction of that force, n prevent backward movement at moment of impact.
If someone holds up a pad in front of you n you hit straight through it. That's good technique. Bad technique you might be crooked and glance off it. Hence less force.

You need the weight to drive through them, the hand might snap out fast but it requires the weight to go through them. If I lost weight now I could improve my hand speed but I would be sacrificing power

eagle eye

colly10 wrote: »

+1 - Thank you, the **** being spouted on this thread about speed being the main factor in power so far is laughable, Bernard Dunne would have faster hands than Hopkins but I know who id rather take a punch off

Anyone here who has never boxed and feels speed = power needs to spar a small faster guy and a big guy and then they'll see the difference in power is obvious, they can spout all they want about physics formulas but when ye get hit by a lad 10kg heavier it nearly takes your head off despite their lack of speed

What are you talking about man.

Clearly the more weight in a punch is what counts. The faster a guy throws a punch the more weight that will be in it. The bigger guy's weight will mean he hits harder but in this instance its not just about two guys the same size throwing a punch here. Its like one has all his weight behind it and the speed added to that weight really does add to the power.
A guy standing still has no hope of matching the power of a guy who has all the weight in his body and speed behind him.

colly10

eagle eye wrote: »

The bigger guy's weight will mean he hits harder ....

This is what im talking about, this is my point, speed matters but size > speed, the big guy is more powerful than the little guy despite not having the same hand speed ... you know the whole going up in weight usually meaning you end up fighting more powerful guys

eagle eye wrote: »

but in this instance its not just about two guys the same size throwing a punch here...

Im not talking about this, im responding to things such a **** talk about a lightweight having one of the most powerful jabs out there and Holyfield getting a lower score because he doesn't have the hand speed etc

walshb

For me, colly10 is on the right track and the point made by colly10 about science and formulae being not "all that" in the real world is on the money.

One other point I want to make is that IMO, there are two distinct types
of punchers, one is the fast and snappy puncher, and the other is the heavy handed and forceful puncher.

Some men generate great speed and snap in the shot but it lacks the force and power to KO, where others lack the snap and speed, but the shot is so heavy and forceful. Now, I have taken both types of shots and I would rather take the former to be honest. The heavy and forceful
hitters are the 'born' hitters. These hitters are natural

Then there are the fast, snappy and heavy combined. The Hearns shots and Juilan Jackson shots.

The KO shot comes from the toes right up to the shoulder. It's power that is
created all the way through a person's body. It's inside them, natural, and it just
needs tweaking and polishing and technique to become absolutely deadly.

Some persons have it and others don't.

And the main factors contributing are weight, speed, natural power and technique

itouchmyself

They done this before with one off them machines and Frank Bruno and some fat b*stard from a pub in England... Fat boy won, anyone who actually thinks the footballer could hit harder than EVANDER HOLYFIELD needs a reality check and not worth talking to in my opinion!!!

cowzerp

walshb wrote: »

One other point I want to make is that IMO, there are two distinct types
of punchers, one is the fast and snappy puncher, and the other is the heavy handed and forceful puncher.

Some men generate great speed and snap in the shot but it lacks the force and power to KO, where others lack the snap and speed, but the shot is so heavy and forceful. Now, I have taken both types of shots and I would rather take the former to be honest. The heavy and forceful
hitters are the 'born' hitters. These hitters are natural

Bren i hope you dont mind me using you and me as an example,

when me and bren trained together when we where competing bren was slightly heavier and definetly faster than me while he was still in the club, but i was probably the bigger puncher, we obviously threw our punches with different techniques, bren was a great score puncher and i would of been looking for the finish more than scores, bren was 1 of the fastest boxers i'd ever seen but would admit big punching was not his thing, not saying he was weak though!!

The stupid thing about this thread is that Evander threw a fast punch with no intent or body weight behind it, and his score was not bad, the others threw all there weight in, i never seen frochs effort so cant comment on it, Evander without a shadow of a doubt would punch harder than any of them if he wanted..

speed and weight are massive parts of power-this is a fact but technique is what lets you transfer your full weight at speed making a punch truly powerful.

walshb

cowzerp wrote: »

, bren was 1 of the fastest boxers i'd ever seen but would admit big punching was not his thing, not saying he was weak though!!

That's it Paul, I am making a comeback. I still have it..cheers:)

BTW, your assessment is spot on, heavy hitting and strength was
your forte. Pure boxer/puncher...

Anyway, enough of this back patting!

BTW, I hit harder now, although, that is maybe because I am
11 stone and not 8 stone 6 lbs

mufc4lfe

Forget all this technical ****e,Evander didnt try and hit it hard in contrast to the others who gave it their all.

shamblertine

itouchmyself wrote: »

They done this before with one off them machines and Frank Bruno and some fat b*stard from a pub in England... Fat boy won, anyone who actually thinks the footballer could hit harder than EVANDER HOLYFIELD needs a reality check and not worth talking to in my opinion!!!

haven't you just contradicted yourself there? you say a fat boy hit harder than bruno but a footballer would never hit harder than holyfield?

shamblertine

What I think is interesting too, is that Danny Dyer's punch was almost as hard as the much bigger guy who went after him. Dyer if he was a boxer would be what, a middleweight maybe, and he hit near enough as hard as that guy who went after him who would be a heavyweight if he was a boxer.

colly10

shamblertine wrote: »

What I think is interesting too, is that Danny Dyer's punch was almost as hard as the much bigger guy who went after him. Dyer if he was a boxer would be what, a middleweight maybe, and he hit near enough as hard as that guy who went after him who would be a heavyweight if he was a boxer.

Neither of the 2 have decent technique so anything can happen. Also one may be in better shape at his weight than the other. Or a combination of the 2, or maybe one got lucky and landed far cleaner than the other....

The difference between an untrained middleweight and untrained heavyweight is not similar to the difference between an trained middleweight and a trained heavyweight.
With trained boxers the difference in power as you move up in the weights is obvious, im not taking the piss when I say it's as clear as day and anyone who has stepped in the ring with a bigger or smaller guy will tell you the same. I fight at 75kg myself and have good power and am muscular at my weight, if I was to fight a heavyweight though although I would be faster than him I would not trouble him with my power and he'd nearly take my head off my shoulders when he lands.

When you place massive emphases on speed and talk about it being more important than weight then you have to ask yourself why the likes of Manny Pacquaio would argue over the like of a 2 pound difference in a catch weight and why his trainer (possibly the best in the world) believes that 2 pounds makes a huge difference on how that fight would pan out.

Your arguing about lightweights having similar power as middleweights and middleweights having similar power to heavyweights and your arguing it with people who take the shots a few times a week. If you spent some time in the ring you wouldn't need convincing

pjbrady1

Colly 10 I make my argument based on facts of science. Then yourself and others dismiss my arguments based on this notion that "Science don't work in the real world". It's modern sports scientists who have advised boxers to call a halt to the daily ten mile run routines of the past. Dismissing Science is ridiculous. Phrases such as "natural power", "natural strength", "heavy hands", their all just different variations of the same Scientific laws.
Using Manny Pacquaios arguments over a 2lb catchweight for a bout proves what???? It would more clearly prove Mannys heavier opponents are coming down in weight, so Manny wants to weight drain them. If they're coming down in weight 2lbs more than they'd like it should drain their energy levels a little bit more. Then the advantage to Manny is in stamina in the later rounds. If they could get it, they'd bring an opponent down 3lbs, 4lbs. Manny is smaller so he is full of energy at those lighter weights, his opponents are not. You're the boxer, that should be screamingly obvious for that situation.

If you go back to my longer post with the Science, you see that I have taken technique out of the argument. Read it clearly, two professional boxers should have similar abilities to put their maximal weight behind a punch using good boxing technique. Once they have launched their weight well then we are down to speed. I even allowed for a heavier boxers heavier hands, forearms n shoulders. So yes a 20% heavier boxer may get 30% more weight into the shot or more.
Your argument concerning Bernard Dunne and Bernard Hopkins is a ridiculous retort to the whole debate. Dunne is a super Bantamweight n hopkins is a Light Heavyweight. So your problem straight away would be the size of Dunnes Hands compared to Hopkins shovels. Anyone who has used a smaller/bigger sledge hammer sees the effect in momentum of having a heavier weight at the end of the hit. N anyone who has shook hands with Mick Dowling (I did once) or Bernard Dunne can see how small a bantamweights hands are compared to a typical persons.

To stir it up again A weight (boxers punch weight) launched at a target will produce a force directly proportional to the square of the speed.

You are right though in some of the statements you are making. Your power would not trouble a heavyweight. But then look at the jawbone and neck of anyone who stands 6'4" and weighs 16 stone. Also putting all your effort into a right hook landing on the sweet spot (all your effort) you could be well capable of knocking out a heavyweight, I'd be confident you could have knocked out Michael Moorer n he was a heavyweight (glass jawed though). Just in a ring situation someone 5'10 will struggle to get a clean shot on someone 6'4".
One of the main reasons bigger boxers aren't troubled by smaller boxers is reach and neck/jaw. Watch Klitschko round one against Chagaev and see how actually pathetically unpowerful a large mans left jab can be if he is slow. Honestly Klitschko had nothing on his left jab and he's 18 stone. But he could use his reach to push off Chagaev n time up the right when he wanted.
It only takes a small jab to put someone off as they advance in. It won't be damaging but it unbalances n blinds.
N all large slow mens best punch is a straight right down the middle with all their weight behind it to make up for their lack of speed. Lennox Lewis was the same. His main shot was his straight right. Very rarely take you out with hooks or combos snapped at pace.
Carl Froch is the same, we've seen countless of his fights, try n point to a single decent left jab that stunned anyone. N yer talking about hundreds of left jabs thrown there. Again that particular fighter has to rely on stamina as he has average speed.

Finally to wrap up the main reason fighters end up finished offensive wise (defense speed gone too I know), is that they age n their speed goes, n they can no longer offer much of an offensive threat when they do land. Older heavyweights are much heavier than in their prime yet their power is seriously dimished, please explain that logically? Same technique, same boxer, more weight, much less speed, and therefore much less power. Do we agree on that surely?
What could be a better demonstration of speed being the major factor in power than the same heavier boxer having less power due to the effects of age reducing his handspeed?

I'll wager too that Roy Jones in his prime could hit all of the following shots harder from a standing position than Klitcschko left hook, right hook, n left jab. Now Klitcschko would be much stronger with a straight right n right uppercut. The two punches where his massive weight advantage takes over. Could 18 stone Klitchsko ever hit as powerful a right hook as in the link below, from a standing position with only a half step in like Jones does? Straight question standing position, half step in proper right hook around the side. Not a shot now where he was able to dive full into it n take full step.
No vague explanations involving head clean off, natural power, mincemeat of Jones etc. See Jones right hook below, a shot solely demonstrating speeds massive contribution to power, seeing as it's difficult to put much weight on this shot (see how he throws it), Jones demonstrates knockout power with speed alone n a small amount o weight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWQlbOkKCD0

I'v never had a boxing match but I know that you can't get much weight behind that shot due to the body position, so it was purely down to speed. It is possible for a super middleweight to punch like a heavy weight on certain punches.

Now full bodied into it with a full step a heavyweight can throw a harder right hook. But as demonstrated above it's not impossible to outdo their power being the much lighter man for certain punches.

pjbrady1

I was looking back over Klitchscko Chagaev.
N I have to say I'm changing my opinion on Klitschkos punching power ... revising it downwards that is. In all fight situations even with a full step in prime Roy Jones throws a harder straight right n right hook than current Klitcsko. Guys it's actually hard to pick out the damaging shots in any o the rounds. (I'll admit I'v always had something against Klitschko mainly the thought that he was there for the taking if you had a middlin decent heavyweight go up against him)
N when I look at David Haye I have to say he completely owns Klitchsko for power. As long as ref would warn him for holding I'm not seeing the firepower he's often proclaimed to have that would win that contest.

walshb

I don't think anyone is dismissing science, but it is not 100
percent accurate because it does not take into account nature and
genetics. Some beings are born with a heavy punch.

So, you can do all the tests you want with all the formulae, and you
can have two equal weighted men to throw the same shot, same technique with equal speed, and this does not mean that equal power is displayed.

One man may simply have more innate force and power thru his body. Same speed, weight and equal technique and still you are not guaranteed equal
results.

I agree that if you clone two men and apply all the data equally, then YES, the same results will come out, same with a car or a tool. The difference
with humans and this science is that some humans are simply
programmed at conception to be naturally heavier handed.

Take two identical hammers and use a machine to slam them into a wall
at equal speeds, you will get identical impact. Now, take two equal weighted
humans and get them to throw an identical punch at identical speeds with identical technique and you are not guaranteed equality

pjbrady1

I agree with walshb on the weight issue. For instance two men can be 11 stone weight. The taller ganglier one would generally not be able to throw as powerful a punch as the more squat muscular one. Now I know that's handed over at birth, but it's all still science.
Also two men of seemingly equal build n weight n height one can have far more general strength. The stronger guy will generally be able to punch harder than the weaker man.

walshb

pjbrady1 wrote: »

I agree with walshb on the weight issue. For instance two men can be 11 stone weight. The taller ganglier one would generally not be able to throw as powerful a punch as the more squat muscular one. Now I know that's handed over at birth, but it's all still science.
Also two men of seemingly equal build n weight n height one can have far more general strength. The stronger guy will generally be able to punch harder than the weaker man.

Hearns was tall and gangly, or appeared so, frame size
or shape has little to do with it. Julian Jackson wasn't the fastest
hitter in the world, or the most muscular. He was ripped and lean and hit like
a lunatic.

Two equal weighted men: To try and predict which of the two, regardless
of frame shape or size, hit the hardest, would be hard to do. This is taking
into account equal speed and technique

Some of the strongest people are actually skinny and lean, as opposed
to squat and muscular. Equal weight obviousy!

pjbrady1

When I wrote the "tall gangly" piece I was considering mentioning Hearns, thought it would be more fun for someone else to bring it up.
Personally I thought in Hagler Hearns he didn't trouble Hagler with his power.
He shoulda been holding up Hagler better in his advances if he was that big a hitter. In that fight his power didn't dazzle me. He landed clean several times n it never looked like Hagler was bout to fall. Interested in ye're opinions on that one, I'm not ruling out Hearns being powerful.

I know some lean thin people are strong but generally strong people have more thickness to them. The big hitters need a bit more musculature.
So usually the big hitting middle weights are black fighters as they have that naturally thicker shoulder at the same weight. Black sprinters have it as well on the shoulder. White guys struggle to have similar at the same bodyweight.
Compare Pavlik, Calzaghe, Froch to Lacy, Jones, n Pascal.
But the flip side is that the likes o Calzaghe, Froch have better stamina.
When a white person goes up to that thicker build they find it harder to maintain speed n agility. It's just fro generally looking at what we've seen in the middle weight division down the years. Just remembered Kessler has a thick build, but he's not agile. He's probably be more agile 7 lbs lighter. Gain some n you lose some I suppose.