It is too late for MPEG2, but is it too early for DVB-T2?

scath · 25-06-2009 1:06pm #1

I know..the thing is about choice. You need all genres, you do need quality. For instance an Irish news channel in my view is very important internationally to showcase us and for ourselves. I think if the broadcasters come together on it that we can afford it similar to what France have done.

Nothing to stop TV3 and RTÉ coming together on one with the Irish government granting some money. That's money better spent than on some other things.

I still don't see a business segment on Six One equivalent to sport. It isn't fair. Why does sport get so much bloody time when some of us aren't interested in it. Isn't business news more relevant to us so I say extend the news to cover business news as a segment and not part of the main news.

More important is that I think DVB-T2 will give us more capacity and will be available in set top boxes by October anyhow so I think we should take advantage early of it as it does reduce power consumption costs.

Onikage · 25-06-2009 2:29pm

I thought the problem was that transmitters weren't cheap/available enough.

slegs · 25-06-2009 2:34pm

We cant even come up with channels to fill the DVB-T spectrum we have why the hell would we be going to DVB-T2.

Equipment isnt available...there are NO TV's with inbuilt DVB-T2

Non runner.................

watty · 25-06-2009 4:22pm

Pros:
:: Allows maybe 80 channels max, compared with 60 max for DVB-T + MPEG4
-- (UK is using MPEG2, approx 30 channels. they would have 60 if it was MPEG4)

Cons:
:: Still only 16 channels if they are all HD.
:: No setboxes or TVs yet.
:: Delays DTT a further 6mths to 1 year.
:: Still not enough channels for PayTV.

With Regular DVB-T and MPEG4 we have enough space for 8 SD channels and 4 simulcast HD channels and extra Broadband space if we don't attempt PayTV.

slicedpanman · 25-06-2009 5:14pm

watty wrote: »

Cons:
:: Delays DTT a further 6mths to 1 year.

Is that a further 6->12 months on top of the current probable 12 month delay due to drop out of commercial operator?

scath · 25-06-2009 6:35pm

Doesn't cable have shy of 100 at the moment. 80 channels is lots for DTT.

RTÉ/TV3 wouldn't be HD ready studios as they would have to upgrade studios and that ain't happening soon I would imagine.

I suspect there will be STB's in a few months time and TVs will probably follow in 2010. See: http://webapp.etsi.org/workProgram/Report_Schedule.asp?WKI_ID=28396

Take that together with Granada Switchover and there will be boxes available and TVs will follow probably in 2010. The thing about that is that that removes this issue about UK Freeview TVs as you can then go out buying Freeview HD boxes and there is no issue with Irish DTT. So it assist us to wait and get these Freeview TVs off the shelves or down in price on that basis.

:: Delays DTT a further 6mths to 1 year is not a big loss given the rollout cutbacks anyhow.. Gives Onevision more time to fine tune their offering and agree the switchover plan with RTÉ or clarity on whats happening to pay DTT if not. Also reduces the pressure for ASO due to extra capacity. Having said that I don't agree with extending ASO deadline as it saves broadcaster money to have short ASO, allows a more focused campaign and earlier adoption of DTV.

Probably enough channels for most punters.

BTW you didn't mention reduced power consumption which makes it cheaper to run I would think.

A Pay TV option be it like Top-up TV is preferable for those who can't get cable and don't want to put up a dish but want Sky.

I think that even if Onevision didn't sign, that Access Industries Top-up TV may wish to apply here given the synergy with the UK.

Parser · 25-06-2009 8:32pm

There's plenty enough space with DVB-T/MPEG4.

The channels to simply do not exist to warrant DVB-T2

Sponge Bob · 25-06-2009 10:26pm

We get more capacity gain mpeg2>mpeg4 than mpeg4>t2 ( t2 includes mpeg4)

Mike 1972 · 25-06-2009 10:52pm

There's plenty enough space with DVB-T/MPEG4.

The channels to simply do not exist to warrant DVB-T2

What about all the frequency space they plan to flog off

With the same number of channels using DVB-T2 they would have more thin air to sell

Sponge Bob · 25-06-2009 11:04pm

I cannot see the need for more than two muxes and they should frankly look at an SFN and flog all the rest of the airspace off ( the profits paying for the complex aspects of the SFN)

watty · 26-06-2009 8:38am

Spectrum is a finite resource.

There was no plan for HD when the UK started. HD takes 5 times as much space.

Also now is the the idea after analogue switch off of using half the TV band for Mobile Internet and Fixed Broadband.

MPEG2 is obsolete.

Ghost Train · 26-06-2009 9:09am

watty wrote: »

MPEG2 is obsolete.

hardly obsolete, only obsolete in terms of ireland planned dtv future

still a perfectly working format in a number of technologies, that could be made use for our dtv if wanted

JHMEG · 26-06-2009 11:01am

MPEG2 is like God, it's omnipresent. We should have used it as most of our newer TVs support it but don't support MPEG4 (for what ever reason), it's tried and tested, we only have 4 terrestrial channels (and are unlikely to have many if any more).

The advantages in the context of Ireland are obvious (cheap/no additional cost, here now).

In terms of bandwidth we only have 4 channels.

I'd be very happy if I could buy cheap stuff with loads of features in Harvey Normans. Instead I won't be buying expensive MPEG4 stuff, but will stick to satellite going forward.

Imo choosing MPEG4 means the DTT will never reach any significant level of take-up.

Indeed the satellite installers are already telling people analog will be gone soon and they need to upgrade to satellite.

Fat_Fingers · 26-06-2009 12:50pm

Yeah, maybe we should never moved to color or LCD/Plasma screens. Black and white 10" TV's would have been soo cheap.

JHMEG · 26-06-2009 4:28pm

In this case how good an idea it is can be judged by its success. As performance metrics go they don't get any simpler.

Time will tell.

scath · 27-06-2009 3:02am

http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/06/25/december-start-for-freeview-hd/ would indicate DVB-T2 MPEG4 boxes ready in Liverpool & Manchester for Freeview HD in early December. This hopefully will mean the incompatibility issue is likely to remove next year meaning a DTT launch in Ireland in 2010 may actually make adoption easier here because of the UK factor MPEG4 ie. To be honest I know about not enough channels needing it etc but why not adopt it and allow the platform to have as wide a number of options as possible, enabling more spectrum for other uses resulting.

watty · 27-06-2009 9:29am

No regional opt outs ever with SFN. RTE's setup is designed to allow regional opt outs with two way feeds to various regional centres.

STB · 27-06-2009 12:08pm

JHMEG wrote: »

MPEG2 is like God, it's omnipresent. We should have used it as most of our newer TVs support it but don't support MPEG4 (for what ever reason), it's tried and tested, we only have 4 terrestrial channels (and are unlikely to have many if any more).

The advantages in the context of Ireland are obvious (cheap/no additional cost, here now).

In terms of bandwidth we only have 4 channels.

I'd be very happy if I could buy cheap stuff with loads of features in Harvey Normans. Instead I won't be buying expensive MPEG4 stuff, but will stick to satellite going forward.

Imo choosing MPEG4 means the DTT will never reach any significant level of take-up.

Indeed the satellite installers are already telling people analog will be gone soon and they need to upgrade to satellite.

Ignorance is bliss.

1st off MPEG4 is a higher quality more efficient codec than wattery MPEG2. In terms of the future it would afford more bandwidth for more muxes in an apropriate economic climate. MPEG4 is now not the future. Just because the UK have old technolgy with a short shelf life doesnt mean we have to have it.

2nd Heres a startling bit of information -MPEG4 is no dearer than MPEG2. The reason its not widely in circulation over here is because most retailers have refused to stock MPEG4 products although they were written to over a year ago by Dept of Communications. That is because most of them are UK chains that continue to flood Ireland with cheap OLD products only suitable for the UK. In most cases they are not cheap anyhow compared to a similar MPEG4 product. Its called the convenience and greed factor.

3rd Yes Ireland have chosen MPEG4 (and that has been cast in stone over a year and half ago). We have embraced future technology now. What have the UK done ? They have switched on digitally for some time. Tey are married into old technology. After ASO the UK have a further headache of telling those who made the digital switch on that they will be moving to a different technology making their Freeview boxes bricks. Double DSO! Initially DVB-T2 will be for HD terrestrial services ONLY causing more confusion. Freesat and the associated HD products available may be used as a safety net.

Dont be sucked in by consumerism. Look to France. Population 61million. MPEG4 as standard. Nice cheap mpeg4 products. Retailers here continue to source from the UK warehouses and the manufacturers continue to let them. Most of Europe is switched on or in the process of switching to mpeg4. Whose fooling who..... I think the days of the retailers hiding behind there is no service on at the moment is gone. If someone buys a MPEG2 TV tomorrow on an understanding of compliance and DTT switches on later this year, I wouldnt like to be in their position when the Consumer Association come knocking (especially when someone points to the letter CEDA members have been sent detailing the technology being deployed and asking them to stock MPEG4 products).

It would seem to me that you have no interest in watching Irish terrestrial stations anyhow. Not everyone have the same ideas. You wont get RTE on satelitte for FREE. Perhaps that is something that the Sky installers who are doing the scaremongering of the uneducated neglect to tell those they are attempting to snare with lies. Those lies wont be allowed continue forever by the powers that be I would imagine.

This is a terrestrial forum for those interested in DTT etc. Wool eyes pull , nah not here.

Mike 1972 · 27-06-2009 12:23pm

STB wrote: »

Dont be sucked in by consumerism. Look to France. Population 61million. MPEG4 as standard. Nice cheap mpeg4 products. Retailers here continue to source from the UK warehouses and the manufacturers continue to let them. Most of Europe is switched on or in the process of switching to mpeg4. Whose fooling who......

I take it MPEG4 equipment is backward compatable with MPEG2 and both Irish and UK retailers should be sourcing their stocks via France (or some of the other countries using MPEG4) ?

STB wrote: »

Those lies wont be allowed continue forever by the powers that be I would imagine.

I wouldnt hold my breath

Mike 1972 · 27-06-2009 12:27pm

Yes but given that:

1) RTE dont do regional opt outs (There were several attempts down through the years which never made it beyond the expiremental stage)
2) Even if there were to be regional services established in future they could all easily accomodated on a single multiplex

Shouldnt (at least) three of the four envisaged multiplexes be using SFN's

JHMEG · 27-06-2009 12:40pm

STB wrote: »

Ignorance is bliss.

Fact is that hundreds of thousands of have MPEG2 capable TVs. Fact is shops are full of MPEG2 capable equipment, a lot of it dirt cheap. The reasons are irrelevant. They are here, now.

Fact is the only transmissions are in an incompatible technology, MPEG4.

Which is easier to change?

As far as I can see the only thing purpose MPEG4 serves in Ireland is for back patting and self congratulation.

Despite using the "wrong" compression, the UK has had a successful DTT system for years, we don't.

watty · 27-06-2009 3:44pm

Ah but they want to be able to when they have money.

There may only be 2 or 3 Multiplexes, ever. I don't believe Pay TV will happen.
1 for SD PB, two for PB HD (Only 1/5th number of channels on HD )

watty · 27-06-2009 3:48pm

Not 100,000s
Many Flat screen TVs sold here have no Digital Tuner.

By your logic we should have had 405 Colour

MPEG2 is obsolete. UK was an early adopter. Anyone starting now is using MPEG4. MPEG2 wastes 1/2 the spectrum or more.

Yes all MPEG4 gear also does MPEG2. By mid 2010 it's likely gear for UK market will be MPEG4. There are nearly 20 countries in process of deploying MPEG4, including the UK.

Sam Russell · 27-06-2009 4:50pm

In the last few weeks, Power City have been advertising 'TV compatible with IRISH Digital System' but only on some of their range. This means that they know there is a difference, and yet still sell Mpeg2 sets.

The solution is for the Dept to ban (by law - as in France) the sale of non Mpeg4 sets from a future date, and for BCI to get the currently unused muxes to broadcast the four FTA channels in MEG2 as a temporary service for a number of years. They did this for years with 405 line broadcasts as well as 625 line, when they launched RTE Tv service in 1960's. Then we had the crap UK dual standard sets with wonky LOPT and dodgy switches. Aweful crap, but not as bad as the colour dual standard version. They doubled as central heaters.

Most people in Dublin either have Sky, or NTL anyway and so are not interested in DTT.

If this temporary dual broadcasting was done now, in conjunction with an information blitz, the profile would work wonders for the takeup.

By mistake, I bought a Freeview PVR and it would ony receive radio. An expensive brick. Fortunately the store swapped it for a Freesat PVR and a few quid.

There is no reason why the UK could not also insist on MPEG4 kit, even if it is not needed currently, as it will be needed in the life of the product.

Some chance!

watty · 27-06-2009 5:27pm

Temporary MPEG2 would fuel cheap dumping of kit here. Since a small percentage of the households have MPEG2 and a MPEG4 box will be a 1/10th or less than cost of a TV, there is no need.

Also we have known for over 2 years it would be MPEG4. WE still don't even have a launch date. Most of the TVs with Digital tuners were not bought for DTT, Irish or UK< but because they are skinny and 80% for Digital Pay TV, Console, DVD/Bluray etc, the other 20% or less for Analog.

We have the compatible simultaneous broadcast for the next 4 or 5 years. It's called Analogue.

Not a solution to simulcast MPEG2, that would be x3 the spectrum for same number of channels. Separate backhaul/feed and headend / encoding needed too.

Infact the UK should not have started 405 after the war. They knew it was wrong and there was less than 1000 operational pre-war 405 sets.

It was crazy that Ireland did ANY 405 in 1962. I'm glad to see we are not repeating that stupidity.

watty · 27-06-2009 5:47pm

Mike 1972 wrote: »

Tsk Watty nobody calls it that anymore. Its 377i now

Mind you several channels on the UK's wonderful MPEG 2 based system are running at half resolution (288i) so 405 colour would actually be an improvment in these cases.

Some Shopping and some Interactive "Video in a text window" on satellite is 384x288

I've seem some what must be 240 or less x 288 too.

Some main channels also use 544x576.

ITV wanted 405 colour and did some demos. 625 standard was published in 1946 and in widespread use by 1948.

UK simulcast 405 & 625 from 1962 to 1985. Let's strangle MPEG2 at birth here, esp as UK is starting MPEG4 tests this Autumn.

byte · 27-06-2009 7:38pm

It's strange that in this day and age, the manufacturers just don't have one tuner setup for all of Europe. Samsung seem to be doing the right thing with their B range, offering MPEG4 tuners across the range. I think LG might be similar. Sony only bother with higher end models. Heck, it's been done with the analogue tuners for ages (in initial setup where you enter your country determines what works - pick Ireland and UHF/VHF becomes available in PAL I for example).

Another problem is all the big brands ship from UK warehouses now, most of them having closed their Irish warehouses. So, I guess, we get dumped with UK stock by default.

As somebody else mentioned, I think there needs to be law set in banning the sale of MPEG2 products from a set date (should've been done ages ago), otherwise offer a free MPEG4 STB in lieu.

I have noticed in recent times that consumers seem to be getting more savvy with MPEG4 or "system compatible with new RTE digital signals" and MPEG4 sets have become easy sellers.

JHMEG · 27-06-2009 8:22pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

to broadcast the four FTA channels in MEG2 as a temporary service for a number of years.

I think this is a good suggestion.

We only have 4 terrestrial channels, so will someone remind me why we can't use MPEG2 for bandwidth reasons?

watty · 27-06-2009 9:03pm

1) Because there will be possibly in a short while 8 or more Public Service channels. (Oireachtas, news, education at least.)
2) MPEG2 is twice as much bandwidth.
3) MPEG2 is Obsolete, by next year there will little or no cost saving vs MPEG4
4) It will waste over 100M to use MPEG2 now and change later.
5) Like sex, chocolate and money there is NEVER enough bandwidth.
6) we will need to simulcast some HD.
7) MPEG2 needs twice the feed bandwidth which costs twice as much
8) for same range and number of channels MPEG2 needs twice the power.
9) The number of people that inadvertently have MPEG2 only tuners already is irrelevant and worst reason to pick MPEG2.

mjsmyth · 27-06-2009 9:08pm

The other thing that should be noted....

With regards to PVR's, they tend to record the digital stream as it is broadcasted.

So.... compare the size of a 1hr SD recording using mpeg2 to one using mpeg4. You will fit many more hours of mpeg4 recording on a hard drive than you will with mpeg2.

watty · 27-06-2009 9:20pm

All True Digital tuner PVRs (sat, cable and Terrestrial ) simply copy the stream. No re-encoding.

At least twice as much. Optiplex and Tanberg seem to be suggesting their current MPEG4 H.264 can manage almost 1/3rd average data rate of MPEG2, or even 1/4 with a good statistical Multiplex (works better with more channels, so stat-mux VBR encoding works better for MPEG4 than MPEG2 in same bandwidth).

It is too late for MPEG2, but is it too early for DVB-T2?

If you had to pick ONE option .. You must explain your vote! 45 votes

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