It is too late for MPEG2, but is it too early for DVB-T2?

MPEG2

ethernet wrote: »

Digital reception of the four terrestrial channels without the need to take out a cable/satellite subscription. This perfectly complements the current FTA line-up on satellite for many.

I think a handful of people are bitter having bought now incompatible equipment from the trials ages ago.

Yes, I agree. That's my plan.
Room 1: Sky
Room 2: FreeSat + DTT

All I'm missing is the DTT:(

The problem is most people don't know what's available to them. Most people outside cable areas think there choice is only Sky or 4-channel-land. The 'market' has filled the void and the 'market' will ultimately decide what happens with DTT (if indeed it hasn't already).

I also agree that I am one of the 'bitter' ones that bought incompatible equipment. I just bought what was available on the market at the time.

We only disagree on the quantity. How many TVs have Dixons/Currys, Aldi etc sold over the past two years? All those small kitchen and bedroom TVs? The answer is lots and most of then have MPEG2 decoders in them. (Still!)

jonmcc

Hi All, If I could just add my two cents worth....
If I break etiquette anywhere here forgive me this is my first post here.

Much as I hate to admit it- I don't think we'll see a launch soon judging by the complete lack of knowledge within the TV Retail business sector.

Go into Tesco in N.Ireland (never mind an actual TV shop) and you'll see loads of set top boxes, IDTVs etc with STBs from as little as 20stg. Try to ask anyone here in the business if they have or will be getting in anything to receive 'the new Irish DTT services' and one of three things will happen:
1. "Sure any of these Freeview TVs will pick it up" -Wrong
2. "No because there is no 'Standard' set yet" -Wrong, its set as MPEG4
3. "What's that???? Do you mean Sky?" -Where do we start?

An awful lot of people are in for a shock when they realise their shiny new and expensive IDTV with built-in Freeview won't show Irish DTT.

Elmo

jonmcc wrote: »

Hi All, If I could just add my two cents worth....
If I break etiquette anywhere here forgive me this is my first post here.

Much as I hate to admit it- I don't think we'll see a lunch soon judging by the complete lack of knowledge within the TV Retail business sector.

Go into Tesco in N.Ireland (never mind an actual TV shop) and you'll see loads of set top boxes, IDTVs etc with STBs from as little as 20stg. Try to as anyone here in the business if they have or will be getting in anything to receive 'the new Irish DTT services' and one of three things will happen:
1. "Sure any of these Freeview TVs will pick it up" -Wrong
2. "No because there is no 'Standard' set yet" -Wrong MPEG4
3. "What's that???? Do you mean Sky?" -Where do we start?

An awful lot of people are in for a shock when they realise their shiny new and expensive IDTV with built-in Freeview won't show Irish DTT.

True but will the UK not have the same problems when they go MPEG 4? One Vision, Boxer and Easy TV have all contacted retailers about providing STB and TV sets in their stores and RTÉ, DCERN and BAI will all be part of the educational process. These issues where bound to arise even with MPEG 2.

I don't think we can judge it until we actually see them in the shops.

Welcome to boards.

jonmcc

I take your point Elmo, (and thanks for the welcome), but in fairness those in the UK that have the MPEG 2 boxes will be looking at upgrade option for a digital service they already have and will not be immediately dumped.
I suspect a large number here will be getting these Freeview TVs on the assumption that DTT is DTT just as analogue UK TV has long crossed the border here. I made my comments based on personal experience having asked in a couple of shops if they had anything capable of receiving the new DTT service and was told- "yeah, any of these...."

Elmo

I have had the argument down this side of the boarder that no shop will have the MPEG 4 TVs until it is definitely the standard to be used. I think it is at this stage MPEG 4.

There are lot of people used to STBs at this stage I think there are many who don't realize that their TV can work without an STB.

My sister moved into her new place set her TV up with the 4 Irish channels. Only to have people ask when was she getting the cable in, she said she had TV up stairs for the moment until she got the cable in downstairs. Which lead to confusion as to how she could have TV with out Sat or Cable :rolleyes:

watty

Actually people this side of the country have always viewed UK analogue TVs with suspicion as mostly those are UHF only and cable, MMDS and RTE1 & RTE2 all VHF.

Most of the LCDs & Plasmas sold here (midwest) were for Irish market and certainly until recently had no digital tuner. Only the UK version had Digital Tuners.

So given that nearly 80% of people are using setboxs I don't buy into this whole "loads of TVs with MPEG2 tuners". Maybe It's different in Dublin to Dundalk.

The standard has been definitely MPEG4 officially over a year, and very likely for last 3 years that it could be MPEG4. At start of the "political" tests from Three Rock and Clermont Cairn it was made clear by Officialdom it was not a public service but a closed trial and not an indication of what the service would be. We said it here too.

jonmcc

I don't get your last post Watty.
I'm neither in Dublin or Dundalk- I'm right smack in the middle of the country- Midlands, and honestly I can tell you that my local DID and especially Tesco has loads of IDTVs that not only have MPEG2 tuners but are Freeview branded.

One helpful sales guy who actually understood what I was talking about (he wasn't even Irish he was from Czech Rep), tried to tune in to Irish DTT tests and only found the Radio channels.

Definitely People are being misled and misinformed and will buy incompatible sets thinking they are future-proofing themselves and thinking that they will be able to watch Irish DTT without investing further.

scath

I've emailed Tesco on this point, so they have no excuse now. I directed them to the main menu terrestrial section here for the models working etc. So I'll have no mercy for them if people complain about what they are being sold. They have been told. They can't cry ignorance.

This is where the BCI need to come in with an info campaign for the public and pull the rug from under retailers so that customers won't buy Freeview TVs. Those TVs should be sent back to manufacturers for modification not continually stocked down here. Really the bleddy stakeholders ie CEDA will be to blaim if there are complaints about it. The way I see it the sooner Freeview HD tvs are released and stocked that avoid this problem, the better. We can thank Ofcom for switching to help us out of this problem. Simply Freeview TVs should not be stocked in ROI by virtue of the decision last year by the stakeholders. Of course they're fine for cable and satellite. But then you don't need a digital TV for cable or satellite in digital. The TV units does the boxes jobs. Although alot of TVs I seen in Tesco longford mentioned cable and satellite (I suppose no need for box) but did not mention terrestrial. Can't remember the brand. But I did see Freeview branded TVs what looked like setanta sports branded (yellow and black).

jonmcc

Bravo Scath, I absolutely agree- Those that have the power and the obligation to inform the public are sitting back waiting for RTE/RTENL to make the move for them and all the while 'Joe Plummer' from Longford and 'Mary Murphy' from Tullamore are being sold an obsolete pig-in-a-poke.

As for Tesco reacting appropriately to your email... I wouldn't hold my breath. The retailers don't care as long as people continue to buy what they put on the shelves.

I would love to be able to get the word out, its very frustrating.

Onikage

After years of not having digital RTE, poor quality analogue and FTA sat, I've become accustomed to not watching Irish PSB. A situation of RTE's own engineering. So, Atari Jaguar for me.

scath

The issue is really compounded by the lack of an information campaign about it. But I think the thing is that I would imagine that stakeholders are waiting for the Pay DTT license to be concluded before they launch any campaign. It seems RTE want to hold off as late as possible before launching or being able to determine whether Pay DTT will proceed or not. It seems they are looking for the most cost effective campaign where Irish PSB and Pay DTT are advertised together or at the same time.

The thing is they probably don't want to do any campaigns until all the ducks are lined up ie set top boxes are in stock. The thing is that not promoting FTA DTT boxes will assist the pay DTT business so RTÉ may be waiting for clarity on that

Meanwhile the lack of an a stakeholder group like Digital Ireland to produce stickers and inform people is a problem. I think they shouldn't need to wait for the Pay DTT operator to be decided. They should start the beginning stages.

I imagine the Broadcasting Act 2009 will be in force shortly, will probably get things moving. .

jonmcc

Onikage, I get your frustration- I've no RTE Digital and will not pay Sky for their services again (been there, done that). I have crap UHF/VHF reception and it seriously bugs me that I have to pay a TV licence fee for it. (btw- Atari Jaguar- I like your vintage interests Dude).

scath, Again your talking perfect sense, but those in a position to do something won't do anything. I agree, there should be a group driving this properly, raising awareness and issuing the appropriate stickers etc.

Is there a national radio prog that would push the subject if we contacted them?
Probably not RTE 1 or 2FM... maybe Darcy or Foley on Today FM... or even the regionals?

watty

My daughter has only UK tv as it is easy to plonk a dish on a stand at back of back garden on the ground and hard to get on roof of a rented house to fit an aerial. No RTE analogue at ground level, high spot Nr O'Connell Ave in Limerick.

Mayo Exile

DVB-T2 now the best option, especially considering the news in the "RTE admits digital TV launch delay" thread?

Link: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055616146

The best that can be hoped for now is probably a launch in 2010, when Freeview HD will be under way in parts of the UK.

mrdtv

Mayo Exile wrote: »

DVB-T2 now the best option, especially considering the news in the "RTE admits digital TV launch delay" thread?

Link: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055616146

The best that can be hoped for now is probably a launch in 2010, when Freeview HD will be under way in parts of the UK.

Bullseye. Interestingly Presely and Arfon will probably have DVB-T2 HD before Divis given the DSO schedule and they are putting up a new taller mast at Divis which won't be erected until 2012 (details over at ukfree.tv) The precise T2 conversion schedule is not yet announced however.

Peddyr

scath wrote: »

Not at all. All questions are good. The different is the processing and energy consumptions reductions. The humax box will not be able to process T2 signals so you won't be able to get HD. However if u buy a Freeview HD box when they are released in Manchester/Liverpool, they will be compatible with Irish DTT unlike Freeview non-hD box. That is because T2 is backward compatible with DVB-T signals but obviously not the other way around. Watty or some of the lads will give ya more technical explanation on it but essentially its processing methods, power consumption during broadcasting to transmitters and capacity resulting from the type of processing.

Thank you Scath!

Sorry for the late reply btw!

That's exactly what I wanted to know. As it now seems there will be no official launch of DTT until who knows when, and, it is also rumoured that maybe even the tests maybe shut down, it seems prudent to wait until 2010 for UK spec stbs etc., which, as they are backward compatible, seem to be the way forward at this moment in time until an Irish DTT service is eventually launched.

scath

Yer welcome Peddyr. I know most of the folks here are itching for DTT to launch but really when you look at marketing costs, and RTÉ have to be congisnant of the business case, the fact that dual launch with commercial DTT is the preferred option from the marketing cost economies and set top box promotion. Also I think the time lag now kinda draws in the direction of T2. Whether RTÉ will go for T2 is the question. However for sure I think the commercial operator should so that people don't have to switch box for a few years and they can have more channels just by contracting RTÉ to go for T2 early on. In any case the set top boxes are going to be T2 anyhow of course provided Top-UP TV go for T2 which one would imagine they should go for, as it would be in their interest to have more capacity. Rather than Freeview HD flooding down here which inevitably may happen Onevision and Top-up TV could dual brand set top boxes with both logos. This would mean the boxes would work for border overspill regions over the next few years of MPEG2 and T1 until the non UK PSB muxes switch over to T2-MPEG4 and given that the UK will turn up the power in 2012 in Ulster such would be even more beneficial. After all Freeview HD boxes are not good for Onevision or RTÉ to a point. However Top-Up TV HD boxes would be because of the subscription slot.

Also I'd like to see Onevision USB DVB-T sticks subscription as I think it may suit people on the move ie in a hotel as I think its a segment and an online option ie contention rates and then when its no longer a problem online can be an alternative ie Onevision Player. I know however the usb stick would be a small segment in Ireland so its not going to be a big money spinner except it would extend out DTT subscriptions and offer advantage over cable and satellite just at the moment.


http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1056527---December 2nd Freeview HD launch!

Freeview HD to launch on December 2

Graham Plumb, head of distribution technology at the BBC Operations Group, has written about the impending launch of Freeview HD on the BBC Internet Blog:http://blog.wotsat.com/page/whatsat?entry=freeview_hd_to_launch_on
The headlines:

Ace's post at digitalspy:
•A firm date for the arrival of HD in Granada region from the Winter Hill transmitter - December 2
•The Crystal Palace transmitter will be upgraded in December, but no launch date yet for Freeview HD in London (pre-Christmas or early 2010?)
•Four other main transmitters to receive HD upgrades in early 2010

"The plan is still to launch Freeview HD on December 2nd at the Winter Hill transmitter serving Manchester and Liverpool. The plan has always been to roll Freeview HD out around the country following switchover and Winter Hill was selected as the first achievable transmitter. There will need to be a retrospective upgrade of regions that have already switched.

The originally mentioned date of November came from the fact that Winter Hill starts to switch over in November. But it was quickly realised that the BBC's second Multiplex (Mux that is being converted for Freeview HD actually switches over on 2nd December at Winter Hill.

The March 2010 date in the Ofcom document is simply the last backstop date by when Winter Hill has to be on air to comply with our licence conditions. They've built in a contingency (as already happens in switchover licences).

The BBC has been working on plans to deliver early upgrades to some stations (serving high populations) that are late in the switchover programme and would otherwise have to wait long for Freeview HD.

One example is London that switches over in 2012 but we're planning to upgrade its Crystal Palace transmitter in December this year. There are another four main transmitters that we plan to upgrade in the first half of 2010. We can give the names and dates of these transmitters in a little while when plans are a bit firmer. We are also planning an upgrade to the Digital UK postcode database, which will tell viewers when they can expect their transmitter to be upgraded to Freeview HD.

Although everything is still on track against plans, there are significant technical and contractual challenges - not least to get transmission and domestic receiver equipment through design, development and delivery stages within an ambitious timescale. As with any major technical project, there is always a risk of slippage due to circumstances beyond anyone's control. However, there is industry-wide commitment to rolling out Freeview HD as soon as possible, and good progress is being made on all fronts.". Any guess when Tesco et al will stock these?

The Cush

Looks like the beginning of the end for MPEG-2

Commission ready to mandate MPEG-4

Posted By Julian Clover On July 10, 2009 @ 4:57 pm

The European Commission wants to encourage co-operation between member states to allow the size of the digital dividend to be increased through further spectrum efficiency gains.

In a consultation document published today, the Commission says consumers have high expectations for the future development of broadcasting, such as increased choice, high definition, and mobile television and broadband. To achieve this the Commission is proposing that all DTT receivers sold after January 1, 2012 should at least be as efficient as the current H.264/MPEG-4 AVC standard. The Commission believes that the combination of a replacement cycle of between five and eight years, and a co-ordinated move, would prevent a “chicken and egg” type situation as member states migrate from the first generation of digital broadcasting networks.

The Commission wants to foster co-operation between member states already committed to upgrading their networks to next generation systems. The UK, France, Greece, Norway, Serbia and Latvia are among the countries moving towards MPEG-4/DVB-T2 transmissions. Single Frequency Networks (SFNs) are also being favoured over Multiple Frequency Networks (MFNs), although the Commission acknowledges the additional costs associated with SFNs.

An increase in the minimum standards required for terrestrial broadcasting would outweigh the costs by between €4 billion and €10 billion, according to an ongoing study conducted on behalf of the Commission by Analysys Mason, DotEcon and Hogan & Hartson.

As a matter of urgency the Commission wants member states that have not already completed analogue switch off to reaffirm their intentions to do so by January 1, 2012 and to have all the necessary measures in place during 2011. It also wants the 800 MHz band – already used in the UK for digital broadcasting – to be opened for EU-wide electronic communications services.

The consultation will run until September 4 with a full statement due in the autumn.

URL to article: http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2009/07/10/commission-ready-to-mandate-mpeg-4/

Details of the consultation can be found here. (Press Release)

watty

This thread is still open, but the poll is now pointless and out of date so I closed it:

:: Delays on BCI deciding what to do
:: RTE threatening to Mothball
:: EU pushing for universal MPEG4

Everything is too much uncertain as to which of the only two possible options that are realisitic is viable:

1) MPEG4 + DVB-t (This what we and others have)
or
2) MPEG4 + DVBT2 (Nobody has it, but rollouts live definitely in 2010)

The UK DVBT2 boxes will work on MPEG4 DVB-t.

RTE's problem is not the money they spent on gear for PSB mux, but the fact they bought gear for the other Pay TV mux for 1st phase. If the Pay TV is killed and a Grant given for DTT rollout, then that gear can be used for PSB mux at other sites to more quickly get us to 90%

snaps

I know certain moderators/people hate this mpeg 2 talk, but ive 6 tv's in the house, 5 have mpeg 2 tuners in them. My analogue is not the best so i dont watch irish tv because of the signal quality. i get perfect reception on DTT in mpeg 4 but only have this in my main tv room via a TM6900, but when im in that room im usualy watching other stuff/channels. Now if the DTT was Mpeg 2 id be getting value from my TV licence by being able to receive irish DTT in all 6 rooms/TV's, but the other 5 rooms have FTA satellite instead.

I dont know how many other people are in the same situation as me? But thats lost viewers from the Irish tv network.

I wont pay sky 20e a month to get RTE as simple as that as i already pay a tv licence.