HELP! How can I teach both maths and bio?

Seanh111 · 23-06-2009 12:28pm #1

As we all know the cao deadline is now very near, and ive only just realised what i want to do...i really wanna teach both maths and biology! Im kinda set on going to ucc but i would consider anywhere in munster. Iv got biological and chemical sciences as my 1st choice, and i really want to do that course! Im hoping to go on and do physiology but im wondering can i go on to do the postgrad to qualify as a bio teacher afta physiology? And if i do the maths elective modules in 3rd year wil i be able to qualify as a maths teacher aswel? Im not sure if 1elective module and some maths in 1st year would be enough?

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 1:03pm

the teaching council have a list of all the degrees they recognise for teaching in secondary schools and the subjects they will qualify you for on www.pac.ie

click postgraduate diploma in education on the right, then literature downloads on the left, then download 'recognised degrees for eligibility' in the middle

http://www.pac.ie/hdip/downloads/TRC09.pdf

Craguls · 23-06-2009 1:13pm

Pathway33 has it spot on, I'm not very sure but Maynooth has a science education course where you can teach 2 of Chem Bio Maths and Physics if you wanted to make the switch

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 1:15pm

also bachelor of science in biotechnology in DCU allows you to teach maths, biology and computer studies (never heard of computer studies for the leaving though

)

spurious · 23-06-2009 1:19pm

There's a computer specialisation option in the LCA.

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 1:23pm

yeah the new education courses (think there one in maths in galway) probably aren't on that download yet since that's for people applying for the h.dip (PGDE) this year but the eligibility still stands for potential undergrads like you providing the course is still run

Seanh111 · 23-06-2009 1:27pm

Thanks for all the replies...not sure about going to maynooth or dublin but ill look up those courses anyway. Thanks for that link pathway33 only i cant open the pdf file? Would anyone be able to look up biological and chemical sciences and maybe jus copy and paste or pm me? Sorry to be annoying now!

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 1:47pm

won't allow me to paste here

....anyway I don't see that exact course name on the list for UCC. Download adobe and you should be able to open the pdf file I think.

There's lots of other courses on the teaching council list that allow you to teach biology (but not maths) from courses in UCC but see some courses change titles now and again so may not be on this list yet

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 2:06pm

Courses (past and possibly future) in UCC that teaching council list for 2009 says allow you to teach biology BUT NOT MATHS

Bachelor of Science * (read small print)
BSc Food Science
BSc Nutritional Sciences
Bachelor of Surgery degree
Bachelor of dental surgery degree
Bachelor of medicine degree
Bachelor degree in the art of obstetrics
bachelor of medical science degree
BSc Physiology
BSc Environmental and earth system science* (read small print)
BSc (HONS) Plant and microbial biotechnology
BSc (Hons) Human neuroscience
BSc (Hons) Biomedical science
BSc (Hons) zoology and animal ecology
BSc (Hons) anatomy
BSc (Hons) applied ecology
BSc Genetics
BSc (Hons) Chemistry of pharmaceutical compounds (allows you to teach biology and chemistry)
BSc (Hons) microbiology
BSc environmental plant biotechnology

* There's a good chance you can teach biology with the 2 with the stars above but you need to follow the course options as directed by the teaching council and sometimes in college options are limited and allocated on the basis of results.

Like I said some of these courses may not be listed on the 2009 CAO list for UCC .

Double check with teaching council first to confirm all of above

Seanh111 · 23-06-2009 2:15pm

Wel physiology is the degree choice ill take through biological and chemical sciences, and thats on the list so im delighted about that! Only teaching jus biology is not much use really is it? Do you actually need a lot of maths in your course or can you do a year long add on or anything?

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 3:10pm

Seanh111 wrote: »

Do you actually need a lot of maths in your course or can you do a year long add on or anything?

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Applicants must provide officially certified evidence of satisfactory achievement in primary degree studies (or equivalent) as outlined hereunder:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The study of Mathematics as a major subject in the degree extending over at least three years and of the order of 30% at a minimum of that period [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Details of the degree course content to show that the breadth and depth of the syllabi undertaken are such as to ensure competence to teach Mathematics to the highest level in post-primary education[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Explicit evidence of standards achieved in degree studies in Mathematics with at least an overall Pass result in the examinations in Mathematics[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Additional information (i) where greater clarity is requested or (ii) which would otherwise more fully support the application must be provided as required.[/FONT]

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 3:18pm

Go to www.teachingcouncil.ie and click on box 4 'list of recognised qualifications'. It's the same as the pdf file above (actually maybe better than the pdf because it says it was updated 05/06/2009) but is in .doc format.

Might be worth your while clicking the next box 'subject-specific criteria (post-primary)' for biology as your course doesn't seem to be on the list :eek:. It's a dangerous game to be trying to second guess the teaching council

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 3:20pm

Seanh111 wrote: »

Wel physiology is the degree choice ill take through biological and chemical sciences, and thats on the list so im delighted about that!

but i don't see your degree on the list? teaching council are a picky bunch

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 3:23pm

Seanh111 wrote: »

Only teaching jus biology is not much use really is it?

you'd have to get advice on the teaching forum for that. AFAIK you can do CSPE as a second subject in your PGDE methodology. Most ads I've seen look for 2 subjects alright, but like you will also be able to teach science for junior cert

why not go for the science education in UL? That way you wouldnt be trying to get into a pgde in 4 years, and you could teach more than just biology. Think there's 2 of them in UL though so be careful you pick the right one

Seanh111 · 23-06-2009 4:27pm

Wel ive e mailed the teaching council now just to make sure, and the course in ul is my 2nd choice. You can teach biology, ag science and either physics or chemistry so it is a very good course but im not sure ill get those points. And cork is a lot more convenient for me for accomodation, jobs, more people ill know etc. I presume by doing the ul course i wouldnt have to do teaching? Because i would like the option of other jobs aswell. My careers teacher said i can do biology, physics and chemistry teaching through physiology, but another teacher said it would only be biology. Im just worried about only teaching biology and science because would there be many job opportunities?

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 5:04pm

you certainly wouldn't be tied to teaching with the UL course. The economy should be on the road to recovery in 4 years and companies will be looking for science graduates to drive eire forward so a good result in UL would get you on one of these graduate progression job things in big companies. Or you might do a masters for a year and specialise further in an area you liked in you degree.

There are other ways to pick up a second subject for teaching once you have a degree. Like you could do credits through distance learning and send them into the teaching council for recognition. It says for maths that it has to be a minimum of 30% spread over 3 years so in terms of credits that's like 55 which is 1 academic year although you might have to spread it over 2 so that you get a range of levels

Seanh111 · 23-06-2009 5:13pm

Sorry now but whats distance learning? That sounds kinda good to me...i think i can only do biology and maths in dcu but thats too far away for me really..

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 5:16pm

Seanh111 wrote: »

Sorry now but whats distance learning? That sounds kinda good to me...i think i can only do biology and maths in dcu but thats too far away for me really..

checkout open university: The teaching council approve this open university degree

Bachelor of Arts Honours or Bachelor of Science Honours Degree in Mathematics/Mathematics & Statistics

to teach maths. Do it from home. Get your degree in bed

also www.oscail.ie

also www.mii.ie
like if you did the graduateship in marketing later on you qualify to teach economics and business but you may not have any interest in that and its all done from home with optional tutorials on 4 weekends of the year

oh yeah when i said about the 55 credits that's like if you already have your degree.

DancingQueen:) · 23-06-2009 5:49pm

In the same position but im doing my leaving cert next year and i live in Dublin
can you do biology and maths oin DCU?? never knew that

i wish !!!!

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 5:54pm

DancingQueen:) wrote: »

In the same position but im doing my leaving cert next year and i live in Dublin
can you do biology and maths oin DCU?? never knew that
i wish !!!!

http://www.qualifax.ie/index.php?option=com_wrapper&view=wrapper&Itemid=16

DancingQueen:) · 23-06-2009 7:17pm

Thanks I've spent most of the last year on this site and never looked at biotechnology

Its perfect

rainbowtrout · 23-06-2009 7:20pm

Seanh111 wrote: »

Wel ive e mailed the teaching council now just to make sure, and the course in ul is my 2nd choice. You can teach biology, ag science and either physics or chemistry so it is a very good course but im not sure ill get those points. And cork is a lot more convenient for me for accomodation, jobs, more people ill know etc. I presume by doing the ul course i wouldnt have to do teaching? Because i would like the option of other jobs aswell. My careers teacher said i can do biology, physics and chemistry teaching through physiology, but another teacher said it would only be biology. Im just worried about only teaching biology and science because would there be many job opportunities?

I did the Science Education course in UL. It's very good, you have teaching practice in 2nd year and 4th year. My subjects are ag science, biology, chemistry. You will not be able to teach maths with it as you only do it in first year. You are a qualified teacher after the course, it's no different from the Primary school teaching degrees only that it's for seconday school. I've been teaching ag and chemisty among other things for the last 8 years and for the past 18 months I've been working my way through the Open University Maths and Stats degree which is going fine. That's one of the degrees recognsied by the teaching council, so with a bit of luck in another 18 months I'll be qualified in maths as well.

You could just do a general science degree and take maths and biology as your electives.

The degree in UL while it is very good and while I would recommend it is primarily designed to produce science teachers. It won't prevent you from doing a postgrad (I did one - computer programming) and many of my class went on to do masters or going into another area of study or work. However if you are planning on working in the science field after college, in a lab or something similar, I would suggest another degree. You will not have a degree that is designed for that kind of work and an employer has many other graduates to choose from that have the relevant qualifications. They won't need a teacher who doesn't know anything about working in the biochemical/environmental/pharmaceutical industry.

If you are set on teaching, do get a second senior subject. There are plenty of teachers out there who are Biology and Science, having a second subject will give you more opportunities

Seanh111 · 23-06-2009 7:49pm

Thanks for all the info there rainbowtrout! Wel im bout 75% sure about teaching which is why i want to go with physiology in ucc...but if i do want to do teaching after that it seems ill only be qualified for biology and science which isnt great is it? Theres maths in 1st year so can i teach junior cert maths aswell and theres always cspe i suppose?! Could you explain the maths course you're doing if ya dont mind? Is it part time ya? And do you hav to do another postgrad to qualify as a maths teacher or just graduate and away you go? And you dont by any chance know if physiology in ucc is accepted by the teaching council?

rainbowtrout · 23-06-2009 8:11pm

Seanh111 wrote: »

Thanks for all the info there rainbowtrout! Wel im bout 75% sure about teaching which is why i want to go with physiology in ucc...but if i do want to do teaching after that it seems ill only be qualified for biology and science which isnt great is it? Theres maths in 1st year so can i teach junior cert maths aswell and theres always cspe i suppose?! Could you explain the maths course you're doing if ya dont mind? Is it part time ya? And do you hav to do another postgrad to qualify as a maths teacher or just graduate and away you go? And you dont by any chance know if physiology in ucc is accepted by the teaching council?

Physiology in UCC is on the list of degrees recognised by the teaching council. Biology only though. Here is the link.

http://www.teachingcouncil.ie/home/default.asp?NCID=1

Click on link for List of Recognised Qualifications.

Open University run on a modular basis. You don't have to have any qualifications to study with them and you can take as long as you want to complete a degree (within reason). Modules are worth 30 or 60 credits, and like most degrees with electives in any other college there are compulsory modules and electives. You need 360 credits to get an honours degree (Level 8 in Ireland). In the degree I'm doing you need to do 300 credits between the compulsory and elective modules and the final 60 can be anything you want, more maths, a totally different subject(not unlike picking 4 subjects in a General Science or Arts degree in first year) or get credit for former 3rd level study, which is what I did to keep down my costs. They will allow you do a max 120 credits a year which is the equivalent to a year of full time study in a regular college. I'm doing the degree over three years cos I don't want it dragging out forever. I've already got my teaching qualifications so I'll just get the degree added to my qualifications by the teaching council.

I'm doing it mainly because I always had an interest in maths but I picked a degree that would be recognised for teaching rather than picking one that wouldn't be. It might as well be useful to me. This is the one I'm doing:

http://www3.open.ac.uk/courses/bin/p12.dll?Q01B36

It's through distance learning, they send you all the books, CDs, DVDs, course materials that you need, you have a number of assignments to do over the year which you send to a tutor you have been assigned (who is also there to help you). There are also tutorials on during the year if you need extra help. You do all the study in your own time which is why it's suitable for me as I don't live near any college that has a suitable part time course I'd like to do.

Seanh111 · 23-06-2009 8:18pm

So could i qualify as a biology teacher only, get a job, and while working do this course and after 3 years be a qualified maths teacher aswell? Because thats sounds fairly good to me! I suppose its not possible to do it over 2 or even 1 year or you would be doing it that way?!

rainbowtrout · 23-06-2009 8:29pm

Seanh111 wrote: »

So could i qualify as a biology teacher only, get a job, and while working do this course and after 3 years be a qualified maths teacher aswell? Because thats sounds fairly good to me! I suppose its not possible to do it over 2 or even 1 year or you would be doing it that way?!

In theory yes, but I found once I had left college the last thing I wanted to do was look at a book. Also you will have to pay for it. It does not qualify for free fees. You might not have a job straight off in teaching and if you do you'll find you're pretty tired the first year starting a full time teaching job and getting all your materials together, after a few years you have built up your resources and know what works and what doesn't in class. You couldn't do the degree in anything less than three years because you have to do a minimum of 300 credits for the degree and they let you do a max of 120 a year. You wouldn't have the time anyway. 120 credits is the same as a year of full time study in a regular college. Remember you would be planning on doing this and holding down a full time job, that's studying for a couple of hours after a day at work. It's not easy.

Having said all that, you could start with just taking one module a year at the start if you were in the frame of mind to study and build up from there.

Best of luck whatever you do.

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 9:20pm

rainbowtrout wrote: »

You couldn't do the degree in anything less than three years because you have to do a minimum of 300 credits for the degree and they let you do a max of 120 a year. You wouldn't have the time anyway. 120 credits is the same as a year of full time study in a regular college.

but in your case as regards getting recognised by the teaching council to teach maths is it necessary to do the full degree? I know that this OU degree gives you automatic recognition to teach maths once you complete it but could you not say to the teaching council 'I have completed 120 credits here which more than satisfies the requirement that 30% of my degree be composed of mathematics'. Like people who say do a BA in maths and economics would do only 180 credits (in OU terms) of each subject and yet be qualified to teach both.

AFAIK there's a special form to send into the teaching council to get additional credits recognised in addition to your degree. You would probably prefer to finish the degree but it might save you a few thousand and you'd still be qualified to teach maths.

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 9:23pm

Seanh111 wrote: »

I suppose its not possible to do it over 2 or even 1 year or you would be doing it that way?!

I think it might be based on the 30% rule. If you do a full degree in maths then that's 100% maths yeah = 360 OU credits = 3 years.

so 1 year = 33.3% sorted?????

alright you mightn't get away with cutting it that tight but it says 30% in the regulations so i reckon it's worth checking out

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 9:26pm

Seanh111 wrote: »

Theres maths in 1st year so can i teach junior cert maths aswell and theres always cspe i suppose?!

yeah that's a bit of a grey area i think. Before if you did a subject in college in first year you could teach that to junior cert. But now that has officially been clamped down on. However unofficially it still goes on

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 9:30pm

Seanh111 wrote: »

you dont by any chance know if physiology in ucc is accepted by the teaching council?

be aware of the distinction between
1.a BSc in physiology which the teaching council recognise to teach biology and
2. doing physiology as a major in a degree by adifferent name

I don't mean to be picky

but the teaching council can be so.....

rainbowtrout · 23-06-2009 9:38pm

pathway33 wrote: »

but in your case as regards getting recognised by the teaching council to teach maths is it necessary to do the full degree? I know that this OU degree gives you automatic recognition to teach maths once you complete it but could you not say to the teaching council 'I have completed 120 credits here which more than satisfies the requirement that 30% of my degree be composed of mathematics'. Like people who say do a BA in maths and economics would do only 180 credits (in OU terms) of each subject and yet be qualified to teach both.

AFAIK there's a special form to send into the teaching council to get additional credits recognised in addition to your degree. You would probably prefer to finish the degree but it might save you a few thousand and you'd still be qualified to teach maths.

Ya that's probably true, I never looked into it as I wanted to do the degree first and foremost because I like maths and if I ever want to leave teaching I may as well have the full qualification, but I figured out of the variety of maths degrees that OU offer I may as well do one that the TC recognise and make it as useful as I can. It was never intended solely to teach maths. You are right on what you are saying. There was a guy at one of my tutorials last year who wanted to teach maths and had some maths in his degree (Information Technology from UL) and he was doing the required modules to be eligible to teach maths but not doing the whole degree. I had forgotten about him.

Seanh111 · 23-06-2009 10:32pm

pathway33 wrote: »

yeah the new education courses (think there one in maths in galway) probably aren't on that download yet since that's for people applying for the h.dip (PGDE) this year but the eligibility still stands for potential undergrads like you providing the course is still run

pathway33 wrote: »

be aware of the distinction between
1.a BSc in physiology which the teaching council recognise to teach biology and
2. doing physiology as a major in a degree by adifferent name

I don't mean to be picky but the teaching council can be so.....

Wel there is no physiology on its own, but maybe there was a few years back? So i could do only a third of the maths course in OU and then be automaticall qualified to teach maths? (If i hav the postgrad done already for biology) but since i havent actually got the degree in maths would it count?

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 10:47pm

Seanh111 wrote: »

So i could do only a third of the maths course in OU and then be automaticall qualified to teach maths? (If i hav the postgrad done already for biology) but since i havent actually got the degree in maths would it count?

well therein lies the rub. If you want to get a feeling for the psyche of the teaching council checkout www.educationposts.ie or it might be www.educationposts.com and see the problems people have had getting credits recognised. There seems to be a fair ol roundabout to go on and it can take months for paperwork to be processed. Now this was last year and maybe there was a backlog.

However if you check out the teaching forum here you will find a correspondence from the teaching council where they are currently in discussions with the department of education over the legality of the credits system for qualified teachers. Don't know how it will turn out.

Regarding the one third of the maths course, it really depends on the modules you pick. You'd need a good spread in order to cover the school syllabus up to higher leaving cert. You might get lucky but see people have had a problem before withthe teaching council in relation to the fact that the teaching council wouldn't advise them as to which modules they should do. They would only confirm the eligibility or otherwise of modules after the exams had been passed. Sometimes people were sent off to do another 10-15 credits (of the irish system) without specific instruction. Now that was in the earlier days of the teaching council so by the time you approach them the teething problems may well be sorted out.

As regards to what you should do now, choose the course you are most interested in. If it aint on the list get the head of department to get it recognised before you graduate. It's in UCC's interest to have courses recognised as muchas te student. Also do as many maths options as you can because that means doing less after college.

pathway33 · 23-06-2009 10:50pm

Seanh111 wrote: »

Wel there is no physiology on its own, but maybe there was a few years back?

yeah that's most likely the case. The BSc in physiology has just merged into something else.

Seanh111 · 28-06-2009 1:04pm

Thanks for all the help, i finally got the list of the courses the teaching council accept so thats been very helpful. I was jus wondering, if i did a higher diploma or masters in maths after my physiology degree could i then qualify to teach maths?

star-pants · 28-06-2009 1:07pm

It's quite possible yes.
My BScHons in Earth Science didn't qualify me to teach geography or chemistry.
But the teaching council said if I did a year course/diploma thing in geography I could reapply and it would probably make me eligible.
I'd ring them first and ask, I personally aren't happy with that teaching council at ALL so I'd wanna make solid sure of what would qualify me before going ahead with it.

Seanh111 · 28-06-2009 1:12pm

There isnt a list of accepted postgrad courses by any chance?

star-pants · 28-06-2009 1:14pm

There might be, check their website and see.
I'm only saying because of the hassle and the length I had to go to for them, and the amount of time they took to get back to me, I'd be wary about thinking I can do something without making doubly sure with them.

pathway33 · 28-06-2009 1:36pm

Seanh111 wrote: »

if i did a higher diploma or masters in maths after my physiology degree could i then qualify to teach maths?

H.Dip Mathematical Studies NUI Maynooth

http://graduatestudies.nuim.ie/prospectivepostgrads/taughtcourses/scienceandengineering/mhr56

This is a one-year full-time course, though it may also be taken part-time over two or more years. The aim of this course is to enable graduates having some mathematical background attain the level required to teach the subject in schools. On completion, students should attain a level of mastery comparable to that of Joint-Honours graduates in Mathematical Studies.

Note: Don't confuse it with the H.Dip in Mathematics which is a higher level and requires an undergraduate degree where maths is a substantial component.

I dont think the Teaching Council have a postgraduate list. They have not taken students with Masters in history to teach history for example, but the NUI Maynooth site says the course attains the level required to teach the subject in schools so

HELP! How can I teach both maths and bio?

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