Pro life murder

nacho libre · 01-06-2009 07:10PM

thebman wrote: »

WTF is a real Christian doing in a fighter jet?

Silly hypothetical would never happen.

He's obviously not Christian if he's in a fighter jet. He may think he is and he may go to church etc.. but he's not obeying the rules of his religion so he isn't Christian.

I'm saying people shouldn't take the law into their own hands. There are peaceful ways to lobby for change in laws if you believe they are wrong.

i don't think its such a fanciful or silly scenario to put cross as there are plenty of christians in the armed forces. as you say the pilot obviously would feel he is a good christian and this was my motivation for posting; what constitutes being a good christian is widely open to interpretation, so how can jackass be really sure this man did the wrong thing according to christian doctrine. i'm sure, like jackass, this man read the bible and convinced himself the course of action he was undertaking was correct. he obviously believed he was protecting the innocent from a mass- murderer, and since the state was not going to stop him he felt justified in doing so due to his religious beliefs.

you are right people shouldn't take the law in to their own hands, but we have seen past examples of people and institutions breaking the law, whether they were secular or religious people, because they believed they were morally justified in breaking the law.

thebman · 01-06-2009 07:14PM

Overheal wrote: »

You're assuming he did it for greed or Capitalism as much as I'm presuming he did it out of a sense of belief.

I just lean more towards belief. Why? Well again, I mean, you're right, if I was just in it for the money I would probably cash out when I got shot the first time. But this guy did not. And like you say, he had a family that he would be leaving behind and potentially putting at risk.

From that I am presuming there was more than a monetary motivation here.
You can explain that to the USAF then.... and the US Army. And the Marines. And the Navy. And pretty much everyone in the Military who describes themself as a Christian yet takes up a weapon. Because I am sure beyond a shadow of a doubt: it happens.

I'll gladly give a talk on it to the USAF if they are willing to pay me an appropriate wage and pay my travel expenses.

Just because they want to delude themselves into believing that them breaking the rules of the religion they consider themselves a part of is different, doesn't make it so.

If their religion is correct they'll all go to hell unless they repent and are genuinely sorry but their actions although I don't see how they can cut that but if they don't and their religion is correct, I'll see them in hell.

Manic Moran wrote: »

Not just US military. Any military from a predominantly Christian country.

The true meaning of 'thou shalt not kill' has been rather hotly contested, with no small amount of argument saying that the religion teaches it to mean 'thou shalt not kill without damned good reason'

NTM

Yeah lol with the political wing of the church deciding what is a damned good reason. Sounds like they need a reformation.

walshb wrote: »

That's a ridiculous analogy ad you know it. Everything in life presents danger, but this guy was actively being sought for execution. That's the difference.
Are you seriously saying that is the same as any tom dick and harry goin' out for a couple of beers on a night out?

The an had numerous attempts o his life for his work. I've been i dublin thousands of times ad never ever had anattempt on my life. There's the difference, ther are NOT foks out seking to end my life, because I am a normal joe sopa with no enemies that I now of.

This man KNEW that there were folks out to execute him for ONE thing, his abortion work.

Hey, if I knew that everytime I went out for a beer, that there was a group out to execute walshb, then YES, I would reconsider my actions.

Well in NI you could ask why people went to protestant neighbourhoods etc.. if they were catholic knowing people there would kill them in an instant if they knew their religion. Live is full of risks. He obviously thought it was worthwhile for idealogical reasons or because he wanted the money.

I don't actually care why he did it. He was legally allowed to do it and shame on the person that took his life.

walshb · 01-06-2009 07:16PM

Overheal wrote: »

You're assuming he did it for greed or Capitalism as much as I'm presuming he did it out of a sense of belief.

I just lean more towards belief. Why? Well again, I mean, you're right, if I was just in it for the money I would probably cash out when I got shot the first time. But this guy did not. And like you say, he had a family that he would be leaving behind and potentially putting at risk.

From that I am presuming there was more than a monetary motivation here.
You can explain that to the USAF then.... and the US Army. And the Marines. And the Navy. And pretty much everyone in the Military who describes themself as a Christian yet takes up a weapon. Because I am sure beyond a shadow of a doubt: it happens.

No, I simply asked the question, hence the question mark
at the end of the question.

Hey, for all we know, he may have been doing
his work for free, though I doubt it.

It reminds me of all those over rebuilding Iraq and
Afghanistan who are working when they know the danger.
So, why do they do it? Well, the money is too much to
resist and I can't blame them, I too might even risk it
if offered the right price. But, aged 67 and already having made my cash
and lived my life and helped enough, then I might reconsider, plus the fact
that the man possibly had a family and grandkids to think of

walshb · 01-06-2009 07:21PM

thebman wrote: »

Well in NI you could ask why people went to protestant neighbourhoods etc.. if they were catholic knowing people there would kill them in an instant if they knew their religion. Live is full of risks. He obviously thought it was worthwhile for idealogical reasons or because he wanted the money.

I don't actually care why he did it. He was legally allowed to do it and shame on the person that took his life.

I don't doubt the legality of his actions, nor that the shooter is scum. I simply believe that at 67 and having had attempts on his life and knowing the real danger, then call if a f*ckin* day.

The NI example is not the same either. The conflict there applied to all
members of society and folks didn't deliberately place themselves in
neighbourhoods knowing they woud die. They had no option. This was where they lived, their country and it was involved in a serious conflict.

That doctor could have saved his life in an instant, Those in NI were
helpless to their situation, just like children born nto poverty in
third world countries. They don't knowingly/willingly starve to death

nacho libre · 01-06-2009 07:26PM

walshb wrote: »

That's a ridiculous analogy and you know it. Everything in life presents danger, but this guy was actively being sought for execution. That's the difference.
Are you seriously saying that is the same as any tom dick and harry goin' out for a couple of beers on a night out?

There had been numerous attempts o his life for his work. I've been in dublin thousands of times and never ever had an attempt on my life. There's the difference, there are NOT folks out seeking to end my life, because I am a normal joe soap with no enemies that I know of.

maybe, he was reckless with regard his security, but if everyone who was at risk succumbed to the militant dictates of others, a lot of social injustices would never be eradicted. this doctor obviously believed what he was doing was right for certain members of society, and he was not going to be dictated to by those who opposed him. to some people that's reckless and selfish, to me, even if i don't agree with what he was doing, it's admirable in some way.

Terry · 01-06-2009 07:43PM

walshb wrote: »

This victim wasn't some young up and coming doctor trying to make
a few bob and a name for himself, he was 67 and had surely made enough, done enough and helped enough. He had threats previously and he honestly must have had some sort of death wish. He knew the massive risks posed by these whack jobs ad still at such a late stage in his life, he risked so much.

I wonder does he have a wife, children and grandchildren, becaue if so, his actions to continue putting his life at risk was for nothing! All he has done is left those behind, most likely suffering!

So we should just let the nutty fundamentalists win then?

Oh, sorry Mr. gun toting fruitcake. Just let me shove that foetus back in there and all will be well in the world.
Right. There we go. It's dead and stuff, but if you say god wants her to carry it to full term, then so be it. You're the one with the gun.

That scenario seems a little wrong.

Also, what does his age have to do with it?
I know plenty of people who are past 65 and are still working.
Retirement is not mandatory in every field and some people actually like their jobs and don't want to sit at home all day.

If he was still capable of doing his job, then I see no reason for retirement to be an issue.

Amalgam · 01-06-2009 08:00PM

I watched a clip of a foetus with movement and heart beat just discarded in a kidney dish... the doctor casually pointing out features, cardiac activity etc (the skin is almost translucent) to what sounds like a student.

It is troubling to see terminations well beyond the point at which babies are now classed as premature.

Quick and unbiased information needs to be given to women with an unwanted pregnancy, less holy book thumping and brimstone imagery.

I would be pro choice, best way to phrase it, though very saddening to see a late termination.

I viewed the clip of my own choice.

walshb · 01-06-2009 08:06PM

Terry wrote: »

So we should just let the nutty fundamentalists win then?
.

Again, never said or implied this at all. I think the killer deserves the death
penalty and is scum. I simply am a little confused as to why he was doing it.
We don't know, some say because he believed in it, others will say because he was being paid handsomely for it. Who is right? Only the man knows.

It's a bit like those who still go racing bikes into there 40's when they have families and children, who will be left devasted when they die. They put their so called 'passion' before their family. Now, I am not saying they are wrong, I just think there comes a point in a person's life when they need to STOP and weigh up the implications of their actions, on them, and on their loved ones.

This guy shoud have been enjoying the fruits of life at that stage.
Age does come into it really, priorities change and the things that
were important in your 20's and 30's etc, can become less important later
in life.

Again, I don't blame the victim, but I do question his
continual work at a job that was obviously lethal to his health, especially
at his age, when he had probably done more than
enough.

Splendour · 01-06-2009 08:10PM

nacho libre wrote: »

i'm just curious how you can be sure he was wrong. to some christians in america his killer will be a hero. to you he is not. what if god actually agrees with them not you.

Those Christians then are surely forgetting the commandment 'Thou Shalt Not Kill'. God will hardly agree with Christians who break one of his commandments...

It wasn't me! · 01-06-2009 08:12PM

I can honestly say, if I had to stop doing all those things I love which incur an element of risk when I grow older, life will certainly cease to be worth living. His age is really, really irrelevant to the subject of this thread. The job posed no less threat to him when he was forty. Probably more in fact, so no point bringing his age into it.

philologos · 01-06-2009 08:12PM

nacho libre wrote: »

what about the christian pilot who drops his bombs over a populated city in the belief that he doing god's work to rid the world of a dictator yet in doing so he kills innocent people who might have just come out of a church?

He's killed innocents. I'm personally anti-war. I don't think we are comparing like with like here anyway.

nacho libre wrote: »

this man obviously felt he was carrying out god's work to protect the innocent from a person he viewed as a mass murderer.

Paul the Apostle? Killed innocents, yet received the Gospel. This man should have been forgiven for his offences, and if they really cared they should have attempted to change his mind on the issue.

nacho libre wrote: »

by his logic it was actually the effective way to deal with it because this man was not guilty of carrying out illegal abortions, according to the state, therefore he was free to continue carrying out late-term abortions.

Any term abortions are wrong. I don't believe it is the right way to deal with it by rising yourself to that action yourself. This is one verse I like particularly in respect to retribution.

Romans 12:19-20 wrote:

Beloved, never avenge yourselves, but leave room for the wrath of God; for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’ No, ‘if your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them something to drink; for by doing this you will heap burning coals on their heads.’ Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

nacho libre wrote: »

i'm just curious how you can be sure he was wrong. to some christians in america his killer will be a hero. to you he is not. what if god actually agrees with them not you.

Well, considering that the Bible says to submit to the authority of the State, and to forgive others so that they too may forgive you in turn, and that many people who committed gross atrocities have come to the other side in the past, I think all people should have this opportunity.

nacho libre wrote: »

if he conducted any late term abortion because the unborn was interfering with the woman's social life that's disgraceful. however, it still doesn't excuse his murder in my opinion.

If she had a late term abortion she would have sought it out herself.

KINGVictor · 01-06-2009 08:14PM

hussey wrote: »

Those danm Yanks

I think I would say ...Damn human nature.It was not the Yanks that were responsible for the savage and brutish abuse of thousands of innocent young boys and girls in Catholic institutions in the US,Canada,Australia,Ireland....over 80% of the monsters have Irish passports or ancestry...

PrivateEye · 01-06-2009 08:17PM

I find it hard to believe that in 2009 we still have lunatic fringe groups like Youth Defence in Ireland, protests in London with Islamic fundamentalists carrying signs promising the "extermenation" of the E.U, murders of medical professionals, homosexuals being stoned to death in the Middle East, and completely bonkers 'new' religions still emerging despite all the advances of science in recent times.

Of all the people to preach about moral rights and wrongs, religious institutions are very low down the list. This lad may seem like one fringe lunatic, but history shows he's not. How many bombings, honour-killings, stabbings, assualts and so on have been carried out by his sort?

walshb · 01-06-2009 08:18PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

I can honestly say, if I had to stop doing all those things I love which incur an element of risk when I grow older, life will certainly cease to be worth living. His age is really, really irrelevant to the subject of this thread. The job posed no less threat to him when he was forty. Probably more in fact, so no point bringing his age into it.

Why I mentioned age, was that at that stage, surely he had done more than enough, earned more than enough and ultimately, survived more than enough.
Hey, at 40, it was a damn risk, we know this and a risk too much IMO.

Anyway, he beat those attempts and survived, makes it to his late bloody 60's and still he "aint happy," he is still risking it, for what?

Money seems the only obvious answer to me. Maybe he simply couldn't say
no to a paycheck?

Nodin · 01-06-2009 08:22PM

walshb wrote: »

Again, I don't blame the victim, but I do question his
continual work at a job that was obviously lethal to his health, especially
at his age, when he had probably done more than
enough.

...because he thought he was doing good and wouldn't bow down to the nuts. Fair play to him.

bronte · 01-06-2009 08:22PM

What do these pro lifers hope to achieve from such attacks?

People are hardly going to take them seriously!

It wasn't me! · 01-06-2009 08:23PM

Maybe he needed money and couldn't afford to retire?
Maybe he didn't want to retire? A lot of people don't.
Maybe he just liked his job and would rather keep doing it?
Maybe he felt an obligation to provide a service.

These things are not obvious. If he was just in it for a paycheque, so what? People have to earn a living. People are entitled to take all the risks they want, as far as I'm concerned. I intend to do a dangerous job, and I bloody well don't want to feel obligated ever to stop for external reasons.

Boston · 01-06-2009 08:26PM

Would you kill Hitler?

walshb · 01-06-2009 08:30PM

Nodin wrote: »

...because he thought he was doing good and wouldn't bow down to the nuts. Fair play to him.

Yeah, and where is the man now?

Maybe maybe maybe. We can all specualte till the cows
come home. To me, it seems like this guy was dodging bullets
for far to long and instead of getting out, he stayed till one of them
bullets finally caught up with him.

At his stage and age, he surely was okay to call it a day!

walshb · 01-06-2009 08:35PM

It wasn't me! wrote: »

These things are not obvious. If he was just in it for a paycheque, so what? People have to earn a living. People are entitled to take all the risks they want, as far as I'm concerned. I intend to do a dangerous job, and I bloody well don't want to feel obligated ever to stop for external reasons.

Again, I never said he couldn't do what he did, just think the guy
was "asking for trouble" and he got it. He also knew it, and got it.
I feel bad for the family and hope the scumbag who did it gets death.

Unfortunately, there are scum who will target certain individuals for doing
a job, he was one, and he paid the price. I do not think he is the same as other persons in risky jobs, he personally was sought out for execution.

He is similar to an undercover cop infiltrating a crime gang, brave and stupid and extremely dangerous.
But, at least the copper is actually undercover, this guy was not

Nodin · 01-06-2009 08:39PM

walshb wrote: »

Again, I never said he couldn't do what he did, just think the guy
was "asking for trouble" and he got it. He also knew it, and got it.

What, he was going round posting Foeti(sp?) to the pro-life crowd? He asked for fuck all.

walshb · 01-06-2009 08:49PM

Nodin wrote: »

What, he was going round posting Foeti(sp?) to the pro-life crowd? He asked for fuck all.

That is why I put them words in quotes. The man was asking for nothing and did not deserve that. It was more to point out the real and deadly threat.
He knew it, he chose to keep doing it and paid heavily.

It's similar to the damn media saying, "He just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time." Eh, no, the freaking scum who killed the person were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

When young Anthony Campbell was shot dead last year, this is what I was hearing, and it incensed me. Campbell was in the right place and doing a bloody days work, it was the scum who were in the wrong place

Nevyn · 01-06-2009 09:33PM

http://www.kansas.com/news/tiller/story/835055.html3

George Tiller's Wichita clinic will reopen after a week of mourning

WICHITA - Women's Health Care Services, the clinic that has been bombed, blockaded and vandalized for more than 20 years because late-term abortions are performed there, will be closed this week to mourn the slaying Sunday of founder George Tiller.

But the clinic will resume normal operations next Monday, said LeRoy Carhart, a Nebraska physician who has been coming to Tiller's clinic on a rotating basis for more than 10 years now.

"What people need to know is... the women's services that we provided for 30 years are not going to change," Carhart said. "The same abortion services will remain available in Wichita."

Tiller, 67, was shot to death just after 10 a.m. Sunday in the foyer of Reformation Lutheran Church, where he was serving as an usher.

Scott Roeder, 51, of Merriam, has been arrested in connection with the shooting, according to the Johnson County Sheriff's Office. He remains incarcerated at the Sedgwick County Jail pending the filing of charges.

Carhart said he drove to Wichita last night. He met with clinic staff members and Tiller's wife and daughters this morning.

"It was a really, really good meeting," Carhart said. "It was a chance to go over all the important things and the good things George had done for each of us, and ways that we could appreciate all that he's done for the community and the women of this country.

"His daughters and his wife are doing far better than I would be doing if I just lost my life partner or my mother or father," he said.

Patients who had appointments this week have been notified of the clinic's closing, and other arrangements have been made, Carhart said.

"Starting next Monday we should be back to 100 percent," he said.

Carhart said he and two other out-of-state doctors have been rotating weekly shifts at the clinic, and that will continue.

So the nutjob shoot him in church in front of everyone there including kids how charming.

01-06-2009 09:35PM

orestes wrote: »

We're so pro life and believe so strongly that every life is sacred that we will kill people who don't respect the sanctity of life!

Commiting murder to support a pro-life standpoint.

Fail is an understatement.

Absolute dumb**** whackjob bigot psycho fukking retard idiot is an understatement too, but it's closer to the target. Fukkwit.

Actually, it's an entirely logical act: if you believe a foetus to be a human, then this abortion doctor is basically Goering. He has killed thousands of people and supports the death of millions. (That is, if you believe a foetus to be a full human being.)

01-06-2009 09:39PM

Nodin wrote: »

What, he was going round posting Foeti(sp?) to the pro-life crowd? He asked for fuck all.

it's just foetuses, because in Latin "foetus" has no plural

gardaitester06 · 01-06-2009 09:39PM

The evil scumlord "doctor" was a mass murderer in my eyes.

He got what he deserved.

The shooter did what most other human beings would do to a mass murderer;

He killed the cu*t before he killed again.

Fair play.

The "doctor" murdered innocent children and made a profit, the shooter paid him back with his own coin. Justice.

bronte · 01-06-2009 09:46PM

gardaitester06 wrote: »

The evil scumlord "doctor" was a mass murderer in my eyes.

He got what he deserved.

The shooter did what most other human beings would do to a mass murderer;

He killed the cu*t before he killed again.

Fair play.

The "doctor" murdered innocent children and made a profit, the shooter paid him back with his own coin. Justice.

So you think he was right to shoot this man in public, very likely in view of young children? Seriously? The mind boggles.

KINGVictor · 01-06-2009 09:55PM

gardaitester06 wrote: »

The evil scumlord "doctor" was a mass murderer in my eyes.

He got what he deserved.

The shooter did what most other human beings would do to a mass murderer;

He killed the cu*t before he killed again.

Fair play.

The "doctor" murdered innocent children and made a profit, the shooter paid him back with his own coin. Justice.

Not really Madam/Sir....two wrongs dont make a right....and considering we are living in the 21st century we dont simply carry a gun and kill everyone we disagree with...if that was the case then Al-quada and their likes would be adequately justified.

I personally dont traditionally believe in abortion but it becomes senseless and futile for me to propagate my views when I condone killing any human because he/she doesn't share my beliefs.

dlofnep · 01-06-2009 10:14PM

Man murders children.

Man murders said murderer.

A real life Dexter. Brilliant!

thelordofcheese · 01-06-2009 10:24PM

dlofnep wrote: »

Man murders children.

Man murders said murderer.

A real life Dexter. Brilliant!

Except the first part isn't true at all.

Pro life murder

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